Guardian Hammer

[Virtuality.8351]

On 2/20/2023 at 5:08 PM, Sonork.2916 said:

Ideas to make banish a usable skill:

1. - It needs to be faster.
2. - Increase it's range
3. - Give it a dash animation that does the windup during the dash, finishing at the end of the dash.
4. - Add good damage to the skill

Even if they added all of the above, it would only turn the skill into something that's simply usable.  Cause as of right now, unless the enemy is downed or you blow JI, landing a banish is next to impossible.

 

I really like the dash idea a lot. Maybe done in the fashion similar to Warrior's Greatsword Rush with a significantly reduced distance to reflect the weight of hammer in Guardian's hands.

Like, at the end of the animation, you transfer all the momentum accumulated during the short dash into your target with a powerful hammer uppercut, knocking it back. Seriously mad love.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Virtuality.8351

[Saiyan.1704]

I still feel Banish needs to have the port instead of just Mighty Blow...

One of the issues I'm seeing is you can Banish some one but have to wait until Mighty Blow is off cd. Half the time I use Mighty Blow just to get in range for Banish lol.

[Sonork.2916]

Also wouldn't mind Might blow just being Glacial blow period.  Without  the need of speccing into it.  By that i mean simply do the chill effect and increased damage but not the chilled on CC that the trait gives.

[GoingMenthol.7281]

Banish should recharge Mighty Blow in the same way that Backbreaker recharges Fierce Blow on Warrior

[Gaiawolf.8261]

10 hours ago, GoingMenthol.7281 said:

Banish should recharge Mighty Blow in the same way that Backbreaker recharges Fierce Blow on Warrior

I'm not against that idea, but why? When will that ever come into use? MB has a 4s CD. Banish has a 15s CD, and applies the marker for 5s. I can't see any case where MB won't be available before the marker runs out. 

[GoingMenthol.7281]

On 3/2/2023 at 12:03 AM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I'm not against that idea, but why? When will that ever come into use? MB has a 4s CD. Banish has a 15s CD, and applies the marker for 5s. I can't see any case where MB won't be available before the marker runs out. 

Honestly speaking, I don't like the idea of Banish making Mighty Blow have a teleport, I'd prefer a redo of Guardian Hammer skills. But if ANet are going to have skill synergy between skills then it may as well go a bit further and let skills have the ability to be immediately chained together. Warrior hammer can skill 2, 5, and 2 one after another with no wait for cooldown. It has a better flow between skills when you're attacking, Guardian hammer's 2, 4, 2 doesn't

Hammer is a front-loaded weapon since it has the symbol on auto. When talking about activating Justice or Willbender Virtues, other weapons can trigger them easier since they can attack quicker (or have a quirk to speed things up) and also leave a symbol down (greatsword 2 and symbol, sword 3 or auto and symbol, mace 3 prepares Justice and symbol, etc). But since there's no rework of the weapon, the only way to have an increase in hits for the hammer would be to let skills chain together

The mark from Banish is just a band aid. It doesn't fix the core problem of hammer no longer having a role as the game design changes over the years. There are no builds on Hardstuck or Snow Crows that use hammer for anything because it's not a good dps or support weapon. So if the best we get is just a band aid it may as well be the one with the pictures of cats and bunnies on it to make it look nice

[Sonork.2916]

At this point, I'd honestly be happy with a complete rework of the weapon.  It should be good at something.

[Guy.9207]

I have discussed this with someone in discord and we thought about something like:

Auto becoming like Warrior's hammer with burning slapped into it.
Hammer 2 having an increased range and maybe cc into it as well.
Hammer 3 again, having burn AND blind baked into the skill, which now becomes aoe-based.
Hammer 4 just needs shorter cast time and increase in damage, maybe have it affect multiple targets as well. Could also use less knockback distance tbh.
Hammer 5 can functionally be something like Scrapper's hammer, and combine the current ward with Symbol of Protection to make it worth something.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Why not gives 2 symbols to Hammer ? 🙂
I mean it's basically the purpose of the weapon, but the symbol  doesn't keep long, same for the protection duration, others skills are fun but are "symbol lost" and so you're forced to spam AA, particulary if you can't upkeep quickness.
Why not add a symbol on skill #5 ? It could pulse immob/cripple + resistance or something and would make hammer viable with both Honor or  Zeal.

[xellink.7568]

CORE auto attack build, top DPS on subgroup on a 'exp' pug, 3rd in squad
https://dps.report/vroS-20231007-101850_cairn 
https://dps.report/KBb4-20231007-104611_sam 

I would have been 2nd in squad if quickness uptime was existent. This shows the importance of keeping autos up and not interrupting them. Don't press too many unnecessary buttons and don't stress yourselves out. The rotations on the log is literally no button presses other than dodging, keeping up reso and keeping party members alive by the elite skill.

The Symbolic Avenger - Accessibility Wars Too

We all know the power berserker needs a nerf, but hammer can keep up with end game content and has its place in LI, especially for core/ftp players. I am all for rework but the auto attack mechanism is one of its core features. I would hate to think that a build will get destroyed due to a well-intended rework.

On 9/2/2023 at 11:49 PM, NeverLoseGuy.3894 said:

I have discussed this with someone in discord and we thought about something like:

Auto becoming like Warrior's hammer with burning slapped into it.
Hammer 2 having an increased range and maybe cc into it as well.
Hammer 3 again, having burn AND blind baked into the skill, which now becomes aoe-based.
Hammer 4 just needs shorter cast time and increase in damage, maybe have it affect multiple targets as well. Could also use less knockback distance tbh.
Hammer 5 can functionally be something like Scrapper's hammer, and combine the current ward with Symbol of Protection to make it worth something.

1. Auto having burning will shift some pieces from Dragon's in my build to Grieving. I think thats really nice. But don't nerf the power coefficients. This can add 1-2k DPS
2. Hammer 2 needs increased range, its really hard to use without hammer 4 which needs to be reserved for cc. 
3. Hammer 3 immob is not long enough. On some encounters like backwarg, I have to bring SoW. You can add burn and blind if you want, but autos are already really strong if you add burning. See additional notes below 
4. Hammer 4 needs knockback for encounters like Samarog. Lower cast time is fine. But keep the knockback distance. Increase the range considering how mobile Rigom actually is.
5. I think Hammer 5 should deal direct defiance bar damage. Currently it is mostly useful on a mobile boss with a very narrow placement window. Having symbol on it will be nice, but not protection. Symbol of judgement already has a hammer image on it. I think it would work really well as a defensive option.

Additional notes:
Going off-topic on SoW If hammer has additional burning as stated above, that can increase its synergy with SoW. This can lead to a more DPS focused build/where SYG is not needed. It will bench around 30k with autos, comparable mechanist hammer auto.

Edited October 7, 2023 by xellink.7568

[cat.8975]

All those logs do is prove the poor state that weapon is in.

[xellink.7568]

4 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

All those logs do is prove the poor state that weapon is in.

Your comment also implies all the other players are kitten and they need an auto attack weapon because hammer is best in slot for them. 

[cat.8975]

4 hours ago, xellink.7568 said:

Your comment also implies all the other players are kitten and they need an auto attack weapon because hammer is best in slot for them. 

I mean... yeah? <15k at Cairn (a nearly-immobile boss) is very low and easy to achieve with just about any "dps" build. Hammer is an alright weapon if you're brand new but beyond that it's worthless.

[Yaki.9563]

7 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

I mean... yeah? <15k at Cairn (a nearly-immobile boss) is very low and easy to achieve with just about any "dps" build. Hammer is an alright weapon if you're brand new but beyond that it's worthless.

Not sure how you can say it's worthless when it does, in practice, better than average DPS and provides permanent protection without using any utility skills. No matter how it get reworked you still won't use it because you're too focused on playing the optimal DPS build which will only exist for one set of weapons, and it won't be hammer. So leave hammer alone for those of us who like its unique play style.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Yaki.9563

[xellink.7568]

14 hours ago, cat.8975 said:

I mean... yeah? <15k at Cairn (a nearly-immobile boss) is very low and easy to achieve with just about any "dps" build. Hammer is an alright weapon if you're brand new but beyond that it's worthless.

It's not about the number. It's about the ranking within the subgroup. This is because the boon uptime is bad, dps player needs to revive, that will lower dps. Doesn't mean that mishaps indicate that the hammer is performing badly, quite the contrary, which shows that the hammer survivability is better and probably rescued the squad from a wipe. On many fights with good boon duration inc cairn I hit 20k upwards. The easy classes that have advantage are scourge, virt on cairn, which I have no intention to dispute. A power build being top in subgroup in a Condi fight is not a very fair assessment. I assure you if this was conjured amalgamate or another power fight like KC, it's strength will be a lot more obvious. 

What @Yaki.9563 said is correct. Hammer has strong perma protect that can allow better speed clears by some classes. Eg. Instead of a dedicated healer, scourge can bring sadistic searing instead of herald of sorrow.  A hybrid scourge can output 20k dps and fill alac at just 45 BD.

[GoingMenthol.7281]

On 10/7/2023 at 5:11 AM, xellink.7568 said:

CORE auto attack build, top DPS on subgroup on a 'exp' pug, 3rd in squad
https://dps.report/vroS-20231007-101850_cairn 
https://dps.report/KBb4-20231007-104611_sam

The Symbolic Avenger - Accessibility Wars Too

Only using skill 1 feels more like the time when everyone played the rifle mechanist meme a while back when you could file taxes in another room while you auto attack to victory. The rest of the skills on hammer range anywhere from situational to useless based on your own dps report, and that's the problem I've had with the hammer design this whole time

Skill 2 is purely raw damage, no boons, no heals, but you don't use it because it interrupts the auto

Skill 3 is only used when you're far away and you may as well, but you don't use it in melee because it interrupts the auto

Skill 4 is only for cc and that doesn't happen that often (or anywhere near as often as the auto)

Skill 5 doesn't work on a non-moving target and interrupts the auto

On 10/7/2023 at 5:11 AM, xellink.7568 said:

We all know the power berserker needs a nerf, but hammer can keep up with end game content and has its place in LI, especially for core/ftp players. I am all for rework but the auto attack mechanism is one of its core features. I would hate to think that a build will get destroyed due to a well-intended rework.

LI is not an excuse, weaver has an LI build, specter has an LI build, virtuoso has an LI build, and the weapons used in those builds can do more than just auto attack and are also used in different builds other than LI. I don't think the same is said for hammer (maybe a roamer pvp build? do people still use that?)

On 10/8/2023 at 10:41 AM, xellink.7568 said:

What @Yaki.9563 said is correct. Hammer has strong perma protect that can allow better speed clears by some classes.

And again, the problem is the other skills on the bar. If hammer is going to be nothing but an auto attack weapon it may as well be a 1-hand weapon so I can do something else meaningful with an offhand

We don't have a bruiser weapon that deals non-damaging conditions (weakness, slow, taunt, vulnerability without trait) or a weapon that increases strike damage based on stacks of conditions. We don't have a 2-hand condition weapon. The only weapon that has direct synergy with virtues is mace (skill 3 readies Justice) so we could have something similar on another weapon. We could have traits that benefit when blasting into fields (hammer/staff support?). We don't have a weapon that removes boons. We could have so much more, but we don't

[xellink.7568]

On 11/14/2023 at 5:43 AM, GoingMenthol.7281 said:

Only using skill 1 feels more like the time when everyone played the rifle mechanist meme a while back when you could file taxes in another room while you auto attack to victory. The rest of the skills on hammer range anywhere from situational to useless based on your own dps report, and that's the problem I've had with the hammer design this whole time

Skill 2 is purely raw damage, no boons, no heals, but you don't use it because it interrupts the auto

Skill 3 is only used when you're far away and you may as well, but you don't use it in melee because it interrupts the auto

Skill 4 is only for cc and that doesn't happen that often (or anywhere near as often as the auto)

Skill 5 doesn't work on a non-moving target and interrupts the auto

LI is not an excuse, weaver has an LI build, specter has an LI build, virtuoso has an LI build, and the weapons used in those builds can do more than just auto attack and are also used in different builds other than LI. I don't think the same is said for hammer (maybe a roamer pvp build? do people still use that?)

I would argue that LI weapons exist to serve some purpose and that is consistent in other classes too. 

Dagger is LI on power bQobK deadeye, if you want LI play dagger. same concept, thief power deadeye melee is 51111115111111, if you are going M7, there is no reason to kitten yourself with a melee weapon if you can rifle. It benches higher than guardian but there are a lot of pre-requisites to meet, honestly its not worth it. At one point it was great but it got nerfed. So on other classes,

Rifle Mech, where rifle is generally accepted to be the default LI weapon. It doesn't even do very well in terms of topping the chart but those numbers are very consistent. Consistent meaning you don't need to keep jumping hoops to get a dead boss. With the recent updates, Hammer mech is also a good contender.

As for your performance concerns: Nov 28 patch preview suggests that Hammer is going to get a buff but little change with its utility, I like its auto attack design and other skills to be used reactively rather than memorise a routine rotation. 

Quote

Guardian

Support-focused firebrand is receiving a few smaller improvements in PvP to make it a competitive pick. We've also tuned up a few of guardian's defensive tools alongside some improvements to the hammer, including additional burst damage potential with Banish now refreshing Mighty Blow when striking an enemy.

• Symbol of Protection: Reduced the casting time from 0.9 seconds to 0.7 seconds.
• Zealot's Embrace: Reduced the casting time from 1.2 seconds to 0.94 seconds. Increased the additional-hit barrier from 225 to 625. Increased the power coefficient from 1.5 to 2.25 in PvE only.
• Banish: This skill now recharges Mighty Blow when striking an enemy. Increased the number of targets from 1 to 3.

1. Hammer auto is going to get an even bigger buff through the SoP buff. It will bench at 30-32k on the golem, very comparable to other LI builds but more LI and big numbers.
2. Zealot's embrace - More responsive CC, less interruption, and more damage. Its a pretty good change. As it stands, the immob is too short and not useful for W3 backwarg, probably need to pair it with another immob skill, chill or cripple. IT would be somewhat good if the CD is shorter. 
3. Banish if its implemented in PVP will have some limited uses. I can see a combo going like 2->4->2, its still not very useful. PVE wise, the damage increase is not significant to not pick inspiring virtue.  But this solves the backwarg issue and you can pair this with hammer 3 and signet of wrath

If they buff relic of the brawler by reducing its ICD by 1s I'd be a very happy hammer guardian.