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Can we get a permanent way to display KP for raid bosses?


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I'm (relatively) new to raiding. Started about 6 weeks ago, now have 43 LI and finally killed Deimos so I've now killed every boss at least once. However, I don't have a lot of inventory space sitting around - especially with legendary collections and gearing multiple characters.

SO, I cannot afford to keep 1 stack of decorations for each boss around just to ping whenever someone wants kill proof. That, and my guild likes to use them to decorate.

Why can't we get some non-economy-affecting method of showing kills ingame? Maybe a title for each one? At minimum a keyring so it only takes 1 inventory spot.

This is frustrating and counts people out from a decent number of LFG raids - which is the primary way I have access to them.

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@Kheldorn.5123 said:The need to ping KP is a problem coming from community, not from the game.Irrelevant. The need for challenging content (that introducing raids supposedly fixed) was also a problem coming from the community, not from the game. In fact, there's a ton of problems devs solved (or tried to) in the past that were like that as well.

Besides, that's not even true - the need to ping KP is a problem that is directly derived from the difficulty level of the content. After all, if raids weren't that hard, most people would not care about KPs (just as only a very tiny minority bothered to ask others for gear ping in the Dungeon Speedrun Era)

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:The need to ping KP is a problem coming from community, not from the game.Irrelevant. The need for challenging content (that introducing raids supposedly fixed) was also a problem coming from the community, not from the game. In fact, there's a ton of problems devs solved (or tried to) in the past that were like that as well.

Besides, that's not even true - the need to ping KP is a problem that is directly derived from the difficulty level of the content. After all, if raids weren't that hard, most people would not care about KPs (just as only a very tiny minority bothered to ask others for gear ping in the Dungeon Speedrun Era)

Kheldorn's point is that the game isn't broken and the game doesn't require people to prove participation in fights. On the contrary, people finish raids with comps different from the meta ever day. In effect, the OP is asking for ANet to make it easier for people to impose unnecessary restrictions on others; that hardly seems like something ANet is likely to worry about.

For whatever reason, there will always be people who assume that pinging gear (or LI or whatever) is evidence of being able to play well. That doesn't make it true and it doesn't mean the game devs should support the practice.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:The need to ping KP is a problem coming from community, not from the game.Irrelevant. The need for challenging content (that introducing raids supposedly fixed) was also a problem coming from the community, not from the game. In fact, there's a ton of problems devs solved (or tried to) in the past that were like that as well.

Besides, that's not even true - the need to ping KP is a problem that is directly derived from the difficulty level of the content. After all, if raids weren't that hard, most people would not care about KPs (just as only a very tiny minority bothered to ask others for gear ping in the Dungeon Speedrun Era)

Kheldorn's point is that the game isn't broken and the game doesn't require people to prove participation in fights. On the contrary, people finish raids with comps different from the meta ever day. In effect, the OP is asking for ANet to make it easier for people to impose unnecessary restrictions on others; that hardly seems like something ANet is likely to worry about.

For whatever reason, there will always be people who assume that pinging gear (or LI or whatever) is evidence of being able to play well. That doesn't make it true and it doesn't mean the game devs should support the practice.

This. Ability to play, playing with others is all good. The XP requirements right now limit the amount of raiders in general.

Also, I have about 10 kills that are uncounted by my "KP". That 10 kills will likely increase over time (Just started raiding about 3 weeks ago).

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To be fair, though - people are going to continue using the game in this way. It makes sense that people want proof that their squad-mates can perform. Not everyone wants to sit around and teach people to do a fight.

What I am trying to suggest is putting a scaffold in place so that a whatever system the players choose can be inclusive rather than exclusive. Right now there are competing design factors.

  1. Get kills, acquire decorations, proudly show off decorations to your friends and guild mates
  2. Get kills, acquire decorations, hold them in inventory to prove you have kills so you can get more kills for more decorations

'Fixing' this could be straightforward and simple. Yes, its an issue created by the playerbase. However, games are nothing without players. And games are better when they understand how players are interacting with their content.

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Your way to avoid the clear proof cluttering inventory is to link the mini, and if the mini hasn't dropped for you, copy and paste a chat code from a chat code generator.

Using made up chat codes is only bad when you don't know the fight, but if you can perform nobody will be able to tell whether you lied about the item or not.

The stupid KP items were eating up a good 10+ slots of my inventory so I simply made a word document with chat code links to provide in game so I wouldn't need to carry KP around.

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Anet could if they wanted to make a way to track these things since we already have loot lockouts it wouldn't be all that hard to showcase how many times someone has killed something in a UI element make it private or public and assign a range of values like

1-5 (Greenhorn)6-10 (Neophyte)11-20 (Mercenary)21-50 (Veteran)51-99 (Tactician)

Just as examples for "ranks" and just showcase the title they fall in.However, im sure that was discussed prior to raids and they'd rather not run into enforcing a standard themselves and just want players to do what players do. Some care, others don't let the individual find the right group for them.

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@Mithos.5182 said:I'm (relatively) new to raiding. Started about 6 weeks ago, now have 43 LI and finally killed Deimos so I've now killed every boss at least once. However, I don't have a lot of inventory space sitting around - especially with legendary collections and gearing multiple characters.

SO, I cannot afford to keep 1 stack of decorations for each boss around just to ping whenever someone wants kill proof. That, and my guild likes to use them to decorate.

Why can't we get some non-economy-affecting method of showing kills ingame? Maybe a title for each one? At minimum a keyring so it only takes 1 inventory spot.

This is frustrating and counts people out from a decent number of LFG raids - which is the primary way I have access to them.

I'm just blown away by the fact you have done every boss! Damn, nice guild. I have 180LIs and have yet to see the last Bosses of W2,3,4.....so sad. ;)

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@Kheldorn.5123 said:The need to ping KP is a problem coming from community, not from the game. There is nothing to be fix on game's side.

Not everybody wants to spend hours before each clear weeding out unexperienced players from experienced ones just to get a few boss kills. You remove killproof, you remove pug raiding, its as simple as that. Without a way to at least guess at someones experience beforehand, the tolerance for unexperienced or even only unknown players will decrease even more.

Other games have detailed statistics you can view on each player, not just how many times someone killed a boss, but also avg dps, amount of deaths etc. And I mean, PvP statistic shows that its possible for anet to do something similar and then use either api or some kind of ingame statistics viewer for showing it.

Simple truth is, Anet just doesnt care enough to funnel resources into developing something like that.

And why should they? Less space in your bank tabs means you are more inclined to buy additional ones.Take me for example. I have nearly 1 stack of each guildhall ornament + 3 stacks of LI sitting in my bank. Thats 16 bank slots I cant use for anything else. And its just gonna keep growing. Next wing, its gonna be 19-20 bankslots permanent in use. Its a win-win situation for Anet.

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@Yasi.9065 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:The need to ping KP is a problem coming from community, not from the game. There is nothing to be fix on game's side.

Not everybody wants to spend hours before each clear weeding out unexperienced players from experienced ones just to get a few boss kills.

While true, it's moot: kill count, LI, and so on don't measure player skill; they only measure kills, LI, and so ons. What skilled PUGs are looking for are... other skilled PUGs and there's no way to measure that in any game. It's completely reasonable to want to find other skilled people, but until you actually play with other people, you won't actually know how good they are.

Just the same as pick-up games work in real life. You can hang out a basketball court or chess club, but it doesn't mean you're as good as the people there. There's also no way to tell until people see you in action.

You want to know if people have been successful in past raids? Ask them how they did it. 2 minutes of questions versus 30 minutes of frustration seems like a good deal. And it's something people can do now, without waiting for ANet to agree that this is something that should be in the game.

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@Yasi.9065 said:Take me for example. I have nearly 1 stack of each guildhall ornament + 3 stacks of LI sitting in my bank. Thats 16 bank slots I cant use for anything else. And its just gonna keep growing. Next wing, its gonna be 19-20 bankslots permanent in use. Its a win-win situation for Anet.

Well, that's your decision but you don't have to do that, at least not for the guild hall ornaments!

It's a simple use of brain power:

  1. You can put your KPs from bosses in the guild hall immediately if you are or want to become a dedicated raider.Why? Buy the mini (stop hesitating you'll get enough magnetite shards in the future, ffs) or you already got it as a drop (most likely after killing a boss around 5-10 times!). A mini is enough as KP and LIs can be stacked in the bank (at least 250!), so there shouldn't be any problem with bank space at all. Show the mini to the squad in the aerodrome or inside the wing, don't ping it due to the possibility of chat code faking!

  2. After finishing the first collection for legendary armor you can ping pieces or the chest. The "Chest of Experimental Armor" including all their armor parts is a KP for 9 bosses. So are the collection parts just in case you haven't known.

  3. Same applies for the "Chest of Refined Envoy Armor" including all their armor parts which is a KP for all 13 bosses.

  4. Pieces of Legendary armor count as well but I think I don't have to mention that because raiders are already pinging their parts since months as combined KP (LI + boss KP), obviously.

I have yet to be seen squads that would kick you when pinging or showing those! And if you're getting kicked although you show the mini + a decent amount of your LIs from the bank you really don't want to play with this commander/Squad anyways.People want you to ping LIs + a high number of KPs? Don't waste your time, move on and look for another squad.

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Raids not that challenging and the raiding community mindset here is far more elitist then wow and ff14 combined and the raiding content is far harder and far more traditional in those games. As a hardcore raider i'm against this our community doesn't not need to become anymore toxic then it is, we have 80% of the game afraid to raid because you guys can't stand a wipe or off meta stuff.

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@Genesis.5169 said:Raids not that challenging and the raiding community mindset here is far more elitist then wow and ff14 combined and the raiding content is far harder and far more traditional in those games. As a hardcore raider i'm against this our community doesn't not need to become anymore toxic then it is, we have 80% of the game afraid to raid because you guys can't stand a wipe or off meta stuff.

The community mindset is not very elitist. Players only try to protect themselves from very very very very very bad skilled players with very very very very very bad gear and very very very very very bad trait decisions as we were proven heavily when using gear inspection tools.GW2 is a game for everyone, yes! But you can't play every stuff successfully with every gear/traits. People need to learn that or they will fail and fail and fail...

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Kheldorn's point is that the game isn't broken and the game doesn't require people to prove participation in fights.I understand that. On the other hand every single QoL upgrade Anet introduced (or people want them to introduce) is exactly the same - those are/were not required, and their lack was not a sign of the game being broken in any way.What OP asks for is exactly that - a QoL feature, not a bugfix, so this argument of yours is completely misplaced. If Anet followed this way of thiking, no QoL would ever make it into the game. And it would be enough to shut down any such highly anticipated and requested things as, for example, build templates (not that they are working on those...).

Whether asking for a KP ping is a good behaviour (or not) is a separate discussion altogether. The truth is, however, that it's a behaviour that is already there and not going to go away. The QoL OP asks for will just make it easier for people to live with that behaviour.

(Notice, that i'm a person that is still disappointed that raids are even there. The fact that i see no problem with OP's suggestion is not an endorsement to raids, KP pinging, elitism in there and so on. I just don't see reason why this suggestion need to be so strongly opposed)

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@Astralporing.1957 said:I just don't see reason why this suggestion need to be so strongly opposed)

It's more likely than not, that Anet already considered the cost/benefit of doing something like the OP suggested long ago and came to the conclusion that it's not on them to play a place in enforcing any sort of arbitrary systems that would cause even more divisive behavior than needed.

I know that sounds strange when you bring up LI, Minipets, etc...but those are generally rewards and players have misconstrued the idea that reward=knowledge. It's not the first time (AP/Dungeon Items) it wont be the last time.

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@Joxer.6024 said:I'm just blown away by the fact you have done every boss! kitten, nice guild. I have 180LIs and have yet to see the last Bosses of W2,3,4.....so sad. ;)

Did all of them with LFG. Never got into a static guild.

@Astralporing.1957 said:(Notice, that i'm a person that is still disappointed that raids are even there. The fact that i see no problem with OP's suggestion is not an endorsement to raids, KP pinging, elitism in there and so on. I just don't see reason why this suggestion need to be so strongly opposed)

Why are you disappointed raids are even there? I think they're the most fun content in the game. - genuinely curious.

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Will be interesting to see if they provide something like this that makes it easy to exclude people.

Commanders in WvW have been asking for a Tag visible only to their squad, but have been repeatedly denied with the position from Anet being that the lack of a visible tag discourages people from playing the mode.

It is bypassed in ways, but requires additional work and effort.

Much like this fix.

I wonder if Raids will be granted the QoL enhancement.

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@Genesis.5169 said:Raids not that challenging and the raiding community mindset here is far more elitist then wow and ff14 combined and the raiding content is far harder and far more traditional in those games. As a hardcore raider i'm against this our community doesn't not need to become anymore toxic then it is, we have 80% of the game afraid to raid because you guys can't stand a wipe or off meta stuff.

Its because most (a few exceptions) non-meta builds simply mean more work for others to compensate. In addition, my experience is that someone that doesnt bother with meta builds for raids just isnt that interested in raids anyway or doesnt want to spend the time practising, reading up or gearing up either. Not talking about someone trying out a new build that he or she theorycrafted and tried on golem. No, I mean people that think their wvw/openworld build and playstyle is enough for raiding and they dont have to improve anything. The whole mindset is wrong in that case and promotes toxicity. Because I can tell you, that guy is gonna fail most mechanics on top of having the totally wrong build with useless traits and stats.

While, yes, it is correct that you can kill every boss with pretty much every build and comp... you cant do that with unexperienced players.

Also, you are missing the point. Not having a statistic is why people are so toxic towards each other, not the other way around. A simple statistic showing:

  • how often you killed a boss
  • your preferred profession on each boss
  • how often you were dead on a successful killwould make it so much easier for players to find other players on their own skill-level. Not only that, but it would promote repeating bosses more than once a week without effecting the economy. The current system discourages players to raid more than once a week, which in my opinion isnt enough for players to actually "get good". Personal stats would be a way to reward practising, and also a way for "elitists" to show off other than youtube videos.

And you forget, those toxic elitists would have to have a spotless record themselves. Quite a few I met that thought they were oh so good, actually were pretty mediocre themselves, while really good players are usually quiet and/or looking for something to improve or do better next time.

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If anything, they should remove the ability to even link proof of you killing.

@Genesis.5169 said:Raids not that challenging and the raiding community mindset here is far more elitist then wow and ff14 combined and the raiding content is far harder and far more traditional in those games. As a hardcore raider i'm against this our community doesn't not need to become anymore toxic then it is, we have 80% of the game afraid to raid because you guys can't stand a wipe or off meta stuff.

Couldn't agree more, as a player of many MMO's and having done hard raids in numerous other MMO's for 10+ years now, it's completely ridiculous how this games raiding community is.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:Kheldorn's point is that the game isn't broken and the game doesn't require people to prove participation in fights.I understand that. On the other hand every single QoL upgrade Anet introduced (or people want them to introduce) is exactly the same - those are/were not required, and their lack was not a sign of the game being broken in any way.This is fundamentally different. It isn't just a quality of life upgrade, it's an endorsement of the idea that it's okay to use achievements as a measure of skill. It's an issue that people think it means something that someone can ping 100 LI (or, after such a change, would be able to show 100 LI). It would be more reliable than today, but it still doesn't tell us if someone is good at getting carried or good at games.

I think it's fine for people to want to look for ways to find other skilled players to do their dailies|weeklies with. I don't think it's elitist to want to play with folks who can play at the same level. But that's a problem for which there is no simple solution, not in RL, not in game. The best way to find other skilled players is to play with them. The second best way is to ask them how they do stuff. Good players can tell you; bad players cannot (and of course, that process is slowed by language barriers, if there are any).

It's pretty clear in a lot of thread of people complaining about getting /kicked that the OP was part of the problem. And it's clear that in others the issue was a commander who wasn't clear on what they wanted. Both situations can be avoided if there's some conversation at the start, rather than using LI or titles as a shortcut.

But look: you don't have to convince me. ANet's been pretty clear that they want skill to speak for itself, that "things" aren't substitutes for experience.

tl;dr this isn't just a QoL request. It's asking ANet to change their philosophy.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:If anything, they should remove the ability to even link proof of you killing.

@Genesis.5169 said:Raids not that challenging and the raiding community mindset here is far more elitist then wow and ff14 combined and the raiding content is far harder and far more traditional in those games. As a hardcore raider i'm against this our community doesn't not need to become anymore toxic then it is, we have 80% of the game afraid to raid because you guys can't stand a wipe or off meta stuff.

Couldn't agree more, as a player of many MMO's and having done hard raids in numerous other MMO's for 10+ years now, it's completely ridiculous how this games raiding community is.

That has to do way more with how the game and raid encounters are designed versus the community.

In many traditional raiding MMOs you could out gear content or take on roles which were less demanding or punishing to the raid as a whole. You bring bad dps to a raid in WoW? No problem, that overgeared other damage dealer will cover for you on every difficulty but mythic (and the mythic crowd in WoW is just as selective and demanding if not even more so).

On the other hand, fail a mechanic in a raid here no matter your position and you can potentially cause a wipe on most bosses without other player being able to cover or fix your mistake.

The other aspect is, GW2 raiding is quite young and was introduced into a game where the required level of skill from the average player was barely above mouth-breather. Now a majority of these players want access to a raiding community which requires basic understanding of class, rotation, roles and synergy (the skill cap required is not even that high).

This isn't necessarily the players fault, they were never prepared via the game to have to understand their class or build while auto piloting, semi-afk pressing 1 through open world content. It does make a selective process when making PUG groups unfortunately necessary because quite a few people would rather lie about their experience to get fast rewards than put in the effort and practice others already have.

On topic, I would be happier with arenanet supplied raiding tools instead of kill proofs. Experienced raiders can weed out trash players after 1-2 tries according to how lenient the group is. I personally will give you a near infinite amount of tries in a practice run, but step in black twice (and this is already way more forgiving than most groups) at Deimos on a 300-400 LI or above group and you're out.

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