Engi nades...

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

37 minutes ago, freakcoco.4287 said:

 

 

Warrior longbow also a good weapon they don't actually "Face" enemy.

I'm not try to say condi warrior OP, but there has many kit/weapon get good value when you kiting.

 

PS: I use this clip coz the enemy nade engi is top 25 nade holo player in past 5 season.

I think what the OP is getting at is that having a relatively powerful auto attack that can be thrown behind you is oppressive. Having one or two skills that can be thrown behind you isn't a problem per se; many professions have something like that. But if they were able to use those skills consistently in that way (e.g. over and over like an auto attack) they probably would be problematic for the same reason.

 

[JosephKatz.9375]

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I think what the OP is getting at is that having a relatively powerful auto attack that can be thrown behind you is oppressive. Having one or two skills that can be thrown behind you isn't a problem per se; many professions have something like that. But if they were able to use those skills consistently in that way (e.g. over and over like an auto attack) they probably would be problematic for the same reason.

 

This is exactly it, if a ranger could Rapid Fire you while running away with little to no ways of stopping slowing them down that would be changed almost instantly.
 

What makes engi/holo different with their perpetual spam grenades ability? You may think this is a low damage attack but a 20k hp warrior will be at 50% health after two throws of this spammable engi kitten. Not to mention, thieves and mesmers or anything that relies on stealth gets passively revealed by the engi just chucking random kitten around 2X every 20 seconds thanks to the “Tools Holo baloney meta traits”.
 

Busted class needs reform.

Edited December 27, 2022 by JosephKatz.9375

[bethekey.8314]

14 hours ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

What makes engi/holo different with their perpetual spam grenades ability? You may think this is a low damage attack but a 20k hp warrior will be at 50% health after two throws of this spammable engi kitten. Not to mention, thieves and mesmers or anything that relies on stealth gets passively revealed by the engi just chucking random kitten around 2X every 20 seconds thanks to the “Tools Holo baloney meta traits”.
 

Busted class needs reform.

Don't go around spreading misinformation. I'm down for a 1x 15 sec cd reveal trait, but be honest about grenade numbers. Since you say "perpetual" I assume you mean the 1 ability. Apart from Shrapnel with a 5 sec cd, the other damaging grenades all have 20+ sec cds.

With low bonus modifiers and Berserker amulet on a Heavy golem: ~330 x3 = 1000 non crit (lowest)

With full heat, big boomer, some vulnerability, might, and Berserker amulet on a Heavy golem: ~850 x3 = 2500 crit (highest)

So in the best case scenario where every grenade hits and crits, with full modifiers, on Heavy armor, you're looking at ~5000 damage from two attacks. 50% less than your exaggeration. This scenario is rare.

These numbers are in line with other power weapons, with the benefit of ranged AoE offsetting the lack of "auto", projectile nature, and trait+skillshot requirements.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

*squint* 

 

Am I missing something?

I don't think this is a big issue personally. You can just run in the opposite direction too if the engie is kiting that hard.

Its silly sure, but I don't think it's game breaking or needs fixes, esp since they often have an allergy to close combat.

Quote

trait+skillshot requirements

What's this mean? Redacted if wrong, but aren't there bind settings that make nades snap to target?

Edited December 28, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[JosephKatz.9375]

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Don't go around spreading misinformation. I'm down for a 1x 15 sec cd reveal trait, but be honest about grenade numbers. Since you say "perpetual" I assume you mean the 1 ability. Apart from Shrapnel with a 5 sec cd, the other damaging grenades all have 20+ sec cds.

With low bonus modifiers and Berserker amulet on a Heavy golem: ~330 x3 = 1000 non crit (lowest)

With full heat, big boomer, some vulnerability, might, and Berserker amulet on a Heavy golem: ~850 x3 = 2500 crit (highest)

So in the best case scenario where every grenade hits and crits, with full modifiers, on Heavy armor, you're looking at ~5000 damage from two attacks. 50% less than your exaggeration. This scenario is rare.

These numbers are in line with other power weapons, with the benefit of ranged AoE offsetting the lack of "auto", projectile nature, and trait+skillshot requirements.

I checked the numbers again today, they were closer to 3k per grenade burst on warrior (spammable). 6k ranged burst (2 hits, what about 4?) Now if you don’t immediately turn away you’ve now eaten 12k damage (more life than most thieves or guardians) while the holo is running away!? Obviously higher depending on the armor type. The bigger issue is the near permanent Superspeed on demand and the permanent Passive reveal on hit that triggers 2X in every 25 second window (Tools holo again).

 

So now, we’re talking about a 50% speed increased Holo that is running away almost twice as fast as the warrior btw*, while chucking 3k grenade blasts from behind his head while you chase him (to no avail) due to the numerous blocks, blinds, CC, knockdown, and pull

and just overall obnoxious DPS that the holo has in its kit.

How can you justify defending this outside of it being the main class you play?

Edited December 28, 2022 by JosephKatz.9375

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

I checked the numbers again today, they were closer to 3k per grenade burst on warrior (spammable). 6k ranged burst (2 hits, what about 4?) Now if you don’t immediately turn away you’ve now eaten 12k damage (more life than most thieves or guardians) while the holo is running away!? Obviously higher depending on the armor type. The bigger issue is the near permanent Superspeed on demand and the permanent Passive reveal on hit that triggers 2X in every 25 second window (Tools holo again).

 

So now, we’re talking about a 50% speed increased Holo that is running away almost twice as fast as the warrior btw*, while chucking 3k grenade blasts from behind his head while you chase him (to no avail) due to the numerous blocks, blinds, CC, knockdown, and pull

and just overall obnoxious DPS that the holo has in its kit.

How can you justify defending this outside of it being the main class you play?

So 1k per nade on nade "auto"? I want to see build and screenshots with current state, and who you're hitting. Remember you said  Warrior, 10k, 2 autos.

 

If the Holo is in Holo mode for superspeed, they aren't in nade kit.

I haven't played with nades in many months, except today to try em out.

If it's Holo + nades that you're complaining about, ask yourself if it's nade kit or Holo that's the problem.

[bethekey.8314]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

What's this mean? Redacted if wrong, but aren't there bind settings that make nades snap to target?

Have you ever tried using snap to target, in a real situation?

To make it work with any elixir, you need to bind a button to turn it off/on or else you toss key things like Stealth toward your enemies.

It doesn't lead the target at all. This makes it usually worse than aiming for anyone comfortable with nades.

The best setting is fast cast so you can retarget mid-air.

[JohnDoe.5891]

.

Edited May 13, 2023 by JohnDoe.5891

[JohnDoe.5891]

.

Edited May 13, 2023 by JohnDoe.5891

[JosephKatz.9375]

The main point here is that perpetual superspeed is a issue that holosmith gets to enjoy. In addition to the ((tools traits)) that seem to be working in overtime passively? What other traits have similar passive carry like this.

Whether it is grenades that hit for 3k or more, or anything else in the holosmith kit - the DPS is overwhelmingly front loaded across every aspect of this spec.

I’m clearly not the only player mentioning this here and engi/holo deserves to be looked at. What other class/spec besides ele/catalyst is able to put out these oppressive DPS numbers in such a short window while still not being considered a meme like power Mesmer or one shot ranger? (Which both are riddled with weaknesses).

Edited December 28, 2022 by JosephKatz.9375

[shion.2084]

8 hours ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

I checked the numbers again today, they were closer to 3k per grenade burst on warrior (spammable). 6k ranged burst (2 hits, what about 4?) Now if you don’t immediately turn away you’ve now eaten 12k damage (more life than most thieves or guardians) while the holo is running away!? Obviously higher depending on the armor type. The bigger issue is the near permanent Superspeed on demand and the permanent Passive reveal on hit that triggers 2X in every 25 second window (Tools holo again).

 

So now, we’re talking about a 50% speed increased Holo that is running away almost twice as fast as the warrior btw*, while chucking 3k grenade blasts from behind his head while you chase him (to no avail) due to the numerous blocks, blinds, CC, knockdown, and pull

and just overall obnoxious DPS that the holo has in its kit.

How can you justify defending this outside of it being the main class you play?

Tools holo doesn’t run nades.  In general you seldom see nades these days.  
 

This is like a specific nerf against Ambi 😉. Who also runs slick and tool kit if I recall.  Anyway you want to get a holo with one stun break and no stability, land your CC right and it will melt.  They are glass.

If you fight Ambi, then yes it’s going to generally go poorly, but same against other good players on their mains.   I actually have a special build I label the Ambi just to give me a decent chance.  Hey f you see him, maybe try demolished over zerk for a start

 

 

[SleepyBat.9034]

3 hours ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

The main point here is that perpetual superspeed is a issue that holosmith gets to enjoy. In addition to the ((tools traits)) that seem to be working in overtime passively? What other traits have similar passive carry like this.

Doesn't fresh air ele do the same thing?

 

[JosephKatz.9375]

Not a dig against anyone. This is a common trend with all tools holo. We keep going back to grenade spam as that was the initial topic but also because I have seen problematic use of it as of late (post buff patch). So I definitely understand the poster’s concerns.

I run into 4-5 Tools Holo every time I play running very similar meta builds each doing about the same amount of damage output with the same amount of effort. Obviously this also isn’t my post, I’m just replying with my objective opinion. Have a great day!

Edited December 28, 2022 by JosephKatz.9375

[shion.2084]

5 minutes ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

No, this is not a dig against anyone. This is a common trend with the tools holo. I probably see 4-5 Tools Holo every time I play running very similar meta builds each doing about the same amount of damage output with the same amount of effort. Obviously this also isn’t my post, I’m just replying with my objective opinion. Have a great day!

The standard tools holo doesn’t run nades. They do the force shield, slick, and rifle turret or tool kit.  

[JosephKatz.9375]

6 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

The standard tools holo doesn’t run nades. They do the force shield, slick, and rifle turret or tool kit.  

The standard tools holo is what is of concern IMO, if that spec & build were to see nerfs I think that the grenade spam issue will fix itself. And I agree with you, that’s exactly what they use. They can definitely swap out grenades for any of the above when the situation calls for it which just highlights the OP’s pov.

Edited December 28, 2022 by JosephKatz.9375

[SleepyBat.9034]

5 minutes ago, JosephKatz.9375 said:

The standard tools holo is what is of concern IMO, if that spec & build were to see nerfs I think that the grenade spam issue will fix itself. And I agree with you, that’s exactly what they use. They can definitely swap out grenades for any of the above when the situation calls for it which just highlights the OP’s pov.

So wait, what's problematic with Tools Holo? I don't play much PvP.

[Kuma.1503]

Why do people keep saying Holo is kiting with perma super speed while chucking nades behind them?

Superspeed comes from forge 2. 

You cannot equip nade kit while in forge. 

If the holo is kiting and spamming nade autos behind them (the main complaint i'm hearing) they cannot simultanously spam superspeed with forge.  

[shion.2084]

18 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Why do people keep saying Holo is kiting with perma super speed while chucking nades behind them?

Superspeed comes from forge 2. 

You cannot equip nade kit while in forge. 

If the holo is kiting and spamming nade autos behind them (the main complaint i'm hearing) they cannot simultanously spam superspeed with forge.  

Maybe SB’s don’t like people running away at all?

[shion.2084]

1 minute ago, shion.2084 said:

Maybe SB’s don’t like people running away at all?

I suppose slick shoes has superspeed for three seconds or so

[XECOR.2814]

Spammable ranged aoe dps skills are always going to be toxic and i knew it will keep being toxic because in one of the livestreams months ago, cmc mentioned he does want to see this  skill being played(he enjoys that) which is the dumbest idea I've seen from him. Just a toxic skill which has both condi and power component and makes kiting on terrain useless and the devs do want to see it in competitive play, just gg.

[shion.2084]

2 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

The standard tools holo doesn’t run nades. They do the force shield, slick, and rifle turret or tool kit.  

I love how people react “confused “ to facts

[shion.2084]

45 minutes ago, XECOR.2814 said:

Spammable ranged aoe dps skills are always going to be toxic and i knew it will keep being toxic because in one of the livestreams months ago, cmc mentioned he does want to see this  skill being played(he enjoys that) which is the dumbest idea I've seen from him. Just a toxic skill which has both condi and power component and makes kiting on terrain useless and the devs do want to see it in competitive play, just gg.

It’s so powerful no one seems to use it.  They probably all agree it’s not fair

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

This whole thread is really weird and smells like people chasing after a class that's clearly faster than them while eating grenades like Pac-Man when you can just let them have the distance. 

People so thirsty for kills that they're willing to eat 19-20k in damage for not waiting then complain they ate too much damage. This is "nerf thief, it disengaged" energ-

 

Oh. Oh I get it.

53 minutes ago, XECOR.2814 said:

Spammable ranged aoe dps skills are always going to be toxic and i knew it will keep being toxic because in one of the livestreams months ago, cmc mentioned he does want to see this  skill being played(he enjoys that) which is the dumbest idea I've seen from him. Just a toxic skill which has both condi and power component and makes kiting on terrain useless and the devs do want to see it in competitive play, just gg.

People eating nades when they can just not do that isn't the skill being toxic. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Why do people keep saying Holo is kiting with perma super speed while chucking nades behind them?

Superspeed comes from forge 2. 

You cannot equip nade kit while in forge. 

If the holo is kiting and spamming nade autos behind them (the main complaint i'm hearing) they cannot simultanously spam superspeed with forge.  

 

Is this true? I am not an engie main by any stretch but I seem to recall equipping nade kit while forge isnt on cd drops you out of it, so in theory it would be possible to holo 2 then drop into nade kit. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Kuma.1503]

8 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Is this true? I am not an engie main by any stretch but I seem to recall equipping nade kit while forge isnt on cd drops you out of it, so in theory it would be possible to holo 2 then drop into nade kit. 

You are correct. 

The way it works is that you enter forge, and it puts any kits on a small CD. There is a minimum amount of time you must spend in forge. Once the CD ends you can enter a kit to drop forge. 

The CD prevents you from doing this repeatedly to keep perma superspeed as you kite. Which makes it impossible to constantly spam nade auto attacks with perma superspeed on holosmith. You get maybe 2 casts off tops before the superspeed ends. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Kuma.1503