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I want to discuss flying mounts (Griffon/Skyscale) and their inability to stay high in the air while going forward

Benie.9312

By Benie.9312
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Benie.9312

Benie.9312

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Now I'm all for fairness and balance, when used correctly (aka, things making sense). But the flying mounts of GW2.. do not make sense. And I'm talking about their inability to stay in the air (while moving horizontally) for an extended period of time.
This should be explained with some lore, such as "they're young, so they don't know how to properly fly yet" or "the air in Tyria is thinner, and they can't breathe at higher altitudes. Aka why they can't fly high". The only one that actually makes sense is the first one.. IF it wasn't for the Skyscale's flight range bar. Because it defies other logical reasons like "the air is thinner, and with them being young they don't have the air capacity in their lungs to stay high up".
Nor does it explain the biggest offense I've seen yet: the Skyscale's Wall Grab mastery causing cooldowns and its Endurance bar to pause until you let go, which was never documented in the wiki. 😑 (If it was, I guess I overlooked it and that would've been my fault for not squinting trying to read the fine print?)
And no, I don't wish to join the wiki's editor team to make changes like that.

I get it, ANet. It's 'balance'. Probably their attempt to separate them from WoW's flying mounts. My problem is I'm too spoiled by those mounts, that I just can't believe all flying mounts in every game weren't like that. And the fact they enforce their BS in the worst ways possible (the aforementioned Wall Grab mastery).
But again, I'm all for balance.. if it's used right. But this isn't! And I wouldn't care if they never added flying mounts. I was actually shocked they even have mounts at all, as the last time I've been playing was 7 years ago (and we had to walk everywhere). Just came back 3 months ago.
...Or have they explained this back then in an article anywhere?

Now I am aware of the Griffon's swoop ability, but to me that isn't a true replacement for normal flying.
All I really ask for, is a dev to respond to this (why I'm posting here instead of the unofficial GW2 Discord server) with a reasonable response of why they did flying mounts the way they did. And that would end this discussion.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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Griffon can stand high in the air while going forward, you need to keep alternating between going up and diving though. Why not "just permanent flying"? Probably because it nullifies gameplay, so to speak. Also boring.

 

7 minutes ago, Benie.9312 said:

Nor does it explain the biggest offense I've seen yet: the Skyscale's Wall Grab mastery causing cooldowns and its Endurance bar to pause until you let go, which was never documented in the wiki. 😑

Um...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skyscale#Wall_clinging

"The skyscale can cling to walls by holding W, or activating autorun. While clinging, the Endurance bar and the flight meter won't recharge, and skills such as Bond of Vigor will have their cooldown frozen."

Edited by Sobx.1758
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Freya.9075

Freya.9075

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33 minutes ago, Benie.9312 said:

All I really ask for, is a dev to respond to this (why I'm posting here instead of the unofficial GW2 Discord server) with a reasonable response of why they did flying mounts the way they did. And that would end this discussion.

They talk about the fly limit at 51 minutes here

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AgentMoore.9453

AgentMoore.9453

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31 minutes ago, Benie.9312 said:

This should be explained with some lore

It isn't explicitly stated in the lore, but if you really wanted to headcanon why Skyscales suck at staying in the air long-term, you could always point to their origin: Creatures inexplicably pooped out of the Mists after the passage of Kralkatorrik through the realms. When we first discover this mount, it's being born, rapidly aging, and dying and it's only because of the intervention of Gorrik and the commander that the species is saved at all. In essence, they're made of (and eat) destabilized Mists woobles, so just about anything goes with their lore.

From a game design standpoint though, balance and design are the reasons they (and the Griffon) have that handicap. They could have given us a true flying mount, but that's not what they wanted. Griffon was meant to be a swift and sharp glider (and can go a long while if you get enough height and make use of the dive/rise) and the Skyscale was intended as a quickly ascending helicopter capable of effectively maneuvering across irregular terrain. These were the gameplay goals, not persistent flight.

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Vyr.9387

Vyr.9387

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Skyscales... aren't dragons in the usual sense of the word, even though they actually might be dragons lore-wise. And this association does them more harm than good, it seems.

In practice, they're cats with wings.

Physiologically - and assuming Tyria has the same general environmental conditions as our wondrous Gaia - a creature of that size most likely wouldn't be able to do either the terrestrial OR the aerial stunts we see skyscales perform due to the usual suspects as bone structure (birds usually have hollow bones to allow flight; ground-dwellers have them "solid") or aerodynamics (animals capable of "permanent" flight are relatively tiny when their wings are not taken into account, and their magnificent wingspans - or other ways they "cheat" physics - are of such note exactly because of that contrast, and skyscales theoretically don't have enough wings to be able to do as much as they already are doing to begin with).

Now, we could go with the cheap "but magic".
Which, without further understanding of its inner workings, can be refuted in the same manner.
So let's not go with the cheap "but magic".

Obviously, from the perspective of design, what you do not give is as important, if not more so, than what you do give, which is why we can have all these mounts that objectively suck at everything besides one particular thing and feel they're the best mounts in any game to date.
They talk about it in the Guild Chat episode Freya linked - thanks for that, by the by - that the main idea of mounts isn't making the landscape irrelevant, but the interplay between the terrain and the player; mounts are an aspect of the game, not just less convenient, re-skinned waypoints.
And that's a beautiful thing, because we need that contrast - we need limits, lest everything become a primordial soup of edge-less grey goo.


 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Um...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skyscale#Wall_clinging

"The skyscale can cling to walls by holding W, or activating autorun. While clinging, the Endurance bar and the flight meter won't recharge, and skills such as Bond of Vigor will have their cooldown frozen."


I understood it, in the context of the thread, as Benie wanting an explanation for why basically resting on a wall would counter-intuitively be draining energy.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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12 minutes ago, Vyr.9387 said:

I understood it, in the context of the thread, as Benie wanting an explanation for why basically resting on a wall would counter-intuitively be draining energy.

It's not draining energy, it just doesn't restore it.  I understood it as the effect itself not being documented in the wiki, but maybe it is indeed in the meaning you're talking about. The explanation there still doesn't need to be lore-based for me, it's just something that impacts the desired gameplay pattern of the mount and something OP said he understands: balance.

If OP wants "everything to makes sense lore wise" and "losing altitude while moving makes no sense when skyscale can hover in the same place infinitely", let's just say balancing it out can work in a completely different direction than he's wishing for. Want that flight to make more sense? Ok, can't infinitely hover in the same place now. Now the question is: does OP really value lore justification enough to be on board with this one? 😅 

Edited by Sobx.1758
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Vyr.9387

Vyr.9387

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15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's not draining energy, it just doesn't restore it.  I understood it as the effect itself not being documented in the wiki, but maybe it is indeed in the meaning you're talking about. The explanation there still doesn't need to be lore-based for me, it's just something that impacts the desired gameplay pattern of the mount and something OP said he understands: balance.

If OP wants "everything to makes sense lore wise" and "losing altitude while moving makes no sense when skyscale can hover in the same place infinitely", let's just say balancing it out can work in a completely different direction than he's wishing for. Want that flight to make more sense? Ok, can't infinitely hover in the same place now. Now the question is: does OP really value lore justification enough to be on board with this one? 😅 


Different strokes for different folks, as the saying tends to go.
Can't blame Benie too much, either, considering it requires the smallest off-hand line from Gorrik or Taimi mentioning some contrived magical impairment, cleaning the storytellers' hands in a grand total of six seconds.

But yeah, it should certainly flow both ways - reminiscent of Raven's questions in his Bjora sanctum.
Speaking of which, wonder if the most elegant lore-friendly solution wouldn't be simply switching the functionality - so the bird mainly flies and the dragon rules the skies.

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SoftFootpaws.9134

SoftFootpaws.9134

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Griffon can fly indefinitely without ever landing or losing altitude, it just requires a very high skill level.

 

Skyscale is stated in lore to be a cousin of dragons and drakes, and most of them can't fly. Even the mighty wyverns, which are second only to elder dragons and dragon champions like Glint, can fly for very short periods of time. Saltspray dragons are only shown to hover above the ground in End of Dragons, and its the same for many non-dragon species like harpies to do little more than hover.

 

Infinite flight isn't common in the real world either and many non-bird species are just jumpers or gliders. Have you thought about how much strength it takes to carry both yourself and a person?

Edited by Mariyuuna.6508
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Crono.4197

Crono.4197

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Another "Guild Wars 2 is not like my favorite MMO" post. Yes, just what we needed. Let's not accept that each MMO is different and has its own flavour, instead let's complain that we want it butchered and turned into another generic WoW copy.

Edited by Crono.4197
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Cait Sith.4650

Cait Sith.4650

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GW2's mounts are critically acclaimed for some reason(s).
I like them the way they are, both mechanically and lore wise.
I'll respect you have a different opinion, but you shouldn't base that, like others have mentioned, on the fact another MMORPG you enjoy does it in a certain fashion. Not to mention said MMORPG went out of its way recently to copy paste GW2's flying mounts. That should tell you something.

Like with the roller beetle, the more you learn about the skyscale and griffon, and employ their skills in a refined mechanical way, and learn from experience, the better you'll get at it, and the more rewarded you'll be. It's basically active versus passive gameplay stance.

Fluffy has been griffon flying for one year now.

 

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Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

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12 hours ago, Benie.9312 said:

Now I'm all for fairness and balance, when used correctly (aka, things making sense). But the flying mounts of GW2.. do not make sense. And I'm talking about their inability to stay in the air (while moving horizontally) for an extended period of time.
This should be explained with some lore, such as "they're young, so they don't know how to properly fly yet" or "the air in Tyria is thinner, and they can't breathe at higher altitudes. Aka why they can't fly high". The only one that actually makes sense is the first one.. IF it wasn't for the Skyscale's flight range bar. Because it defies other logical reasons like "the air is thinner, and with them being young they don't have the air capacity in their lungs to stay high up".
Nor does it explain the biggest offense I've seen yet: the Skyscale's Wall Grab mastery causing cooldowns and its Endurance bar to pause until you let go, which was never documented in the wiki. 😑 (If it was, I guess I overlooked it and that would've been my fault for not squinting trying to read the fine print?)
And no, I don't wish to join the wiki's editor team to make changes like that.

I get it, ANet. It's 'balance'. Probably their attempt to separate them from WoW's flying mounts. My problem is I'm too spoiled by those mounts, that I just can't believe all flying mounts in every game weren't like that. And the fact they enforce their BS in the worst ways possible (the aforementioned Wall Grab mastery).
But again, I'm all for balance.. if it's used right. But this isn't! And I wouldn't care if they never added flying mounts. I was actually shocked they even have mounts at all, as the last time I've been playing was 7 years ago (and we had to walk everywhere). Just came back 3 months ago.
...Or have they explained this back then in an article anywhere?

Now I am aware of the Griffon's swoop ability, but to me that isn't a true replacement for normal flying.
All I really ask for, is a dev to respond to this (why I'm posting here instead of the unofficial GW2 Discord server) with a reasonable response of why they did flying mounts the way they did. And that would end this discussion.

You and your gear weigh a lot. Flying while carrying a heavy burden is apparently too much for the poor things. 

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