Some suggestions and discussion with Thief mains on a Specter wishlist

[TwiceDead.1963]

First off they really should drop the whole single-target healing gimmick.

Alternatively update their decade old UI to better support that style of gameplay, while at the same time giving other classes the "capability" to do the same. Admittely this is so unlikely I don't know why I bothered bringing it up, but oh well.

Edited March 1, 2023 by TwiceDead.1963

[Vornollo.5182]

Honestly only got one glaring issue with Specter at the moment, being that Thrill of the Crime doesn't proc when targeting an ally with Siphon or without a target, for that matter. 
Things like the Wells being direct Shadowsteps rather than flipovers or placed at range, I actually really like that the more I play with it and think about ways of utilizing it etc.

That said, I do think there's room for improvement.
The recent changes to Specter with the Well of Silence providing Condition Removal and Shadow Sap to also provide AoE Might is a great step in the right direction, having the Allied target variant of it provide AoE Protection would make it feel a lot more natural when switching between the type of targetting you're doing.
Well of Gloom could definitely do with Regeneration on it, rather than Cripple, or both if ANet would be okay with that... Not like Cripple is incredibly strong or anything at the moment.
Well of Bounty to get a Stunbreak on it, as none of the Specter utilities has such a stunbreak component to it and this one seems suitable
Shadowfall or Well of Tears to strip boons in addition to the atrocious damage would be quite amazing, maybe a bit too much. Even if it was only on initial placement it'd be a good addition.
Dawn's Repose to steal a boon would be great, or even steal 2 at the cost of the Fear component.
Grasping Shadows could absolutely be improved to provide an actual AoE condition cleanse with 2 conditions cleansed (or 1 converted) of the siphoned ally...
Mind Shock to provide at least a single stack of stability to the full party in WvW would be a great benefit.
I'd prefer Sc/P Measured Shot on an Enemy to come without the Shadowstep, actually. As mentioned, it puts you outside of Wells, which is generally not desireable.
For Sc/D Twilight Combo... Well that thing's just buggy in general, even when there don't appear to be randomly placed blocks etc.
Revisiting the -3 Initiative would be amazing for competitive modes, though admittedly not neccesarily needed.
AoE Siphon would be incredibly strong and absolutely make Specter wanted for WvW groups, but I shudder at the though of trying to play melee against it (playing melee in WvW is already really demanding...)
I do like the idea of AoE Allied Siphon though, maybe not for sPvP. A trait would be rather suitable for this.

In general I feel like Specter is pretty okay. The main issue with it is the identity that ANet wants to give it as a single-target type of supporter.
GW2 as a game doesn't really have a lot of room for that. In most encounters you're expected to be functional for the full group or at least your party, Specter has now gotten a reliable way to provide AoE Might, but it's still lacking.
It also doesn't compensate for it well enough with amazing single-target abilities...
If I had to constantly switch targets but was at least able to get the job done, I'd be fine with it. But the game is generally not designed to work in that way.

Rather, I think the identity could be held by having minor AoE effects for allies, and great effects on your Siphoned ally.
Basically allowing it a bit of a pocket-support type of function until you end up in a real sticky situation and then the specter can hone in on that specific single target.
So in essence, have all (allied) effects be AoE for 5 man, with a greater effect on the siphoned Ally.

It's okay, it's better then people make it out to be... It's not perfect and it's definitely overshadowed by the majority of support builds.
At least I'm still having fun on it.

Also, I really, really, really despise that it can realistically only be played as a Condi build atm, simply because there's no comparable Power type of gear available.
Been having some succes with Wanderer's Gear but it just ain't doing it outside of a silly WvW Frontline type of setup.
So please ANet, some power-based support gear types soon..?

 

[kash.9213]

13 hours ago, Vornollo.5182 said:

Honestly only got one glaring issue with Specter at the moment, being that Thrill of the Crime doesn't proc when targeting an ally with Siphon or without a target, for that matter. 
Things like the Wells being direct Shadowsteps rather than flipovers or placed at range, I actually really like that the more I play with it and think about ways of utilizing it etc.

That said, I do think there's room for improvement.
The recent changes to Specter with the Well of Silence providing Condition Removal and Shadow Sap to also provide AoE Might is a great step in the right direction, having the Allied target variant of it provide AoE Protection would make it feel a lot more natural when switching between the type of targetting you're doing.
Well of Gloom could definitely do with Regeneration on it, rather than Cripple, or both if ANet would be okay with that... Not like Cripple is incredibly strong or anything at the moment.
Well of Bounty to get a Stunbreak on it, as none of the Specter utilities has such a stunbreak component to it and this one seems suitable
Shadowfall or Well of Tears to strip boons in addition to the atrocious damage would be quite amazing, maybe a bit too much. Even if it was only on initial placement it'd be a good addition.
Dawn's Repose to steal a boon would be great, or even steal 2 at the cost of the Fear component.
Grasping Shadows could absolutely be improved to provide an actual AoE condition cleanse with 2 conditions cleansed (or 1 converted) of the siphoned ally...
Mind Shock to provide at least a single stack of stability to the full party in WvW would be a great benefit.
I'd prefer Sc/P Measured Shot on an Enemy to come without the Shadowstep, actually. As mentioned, it puts you outside of Wells, which is generally not desireable.
For Sc/D Twilight Combo... Well that thing's just buggy in general, even when there don't appear to be randomly placed blocks etc.
Revisiting the -3 Initiative would be amazing for competitive modes, though admittedly not neccesarily needed.
AoE Siphon would be incredibly strong and absolutely make Specter wanted for WvW groups, but I shudder at the though of trying to play melee against it (playing melee in WvW is already really demanding...)
I do like the idea of AoE Allied Siphon though, maybe not for sPvP. A trait would be rather suitable for this.

In general I feel like Specter is pretty okay. The main issue with it is the identity that ANet wants to give it as a single-target type of supporter.
GW2 as a game doesn't really have a lot of room for that. In most encounters you're expected to be functional for the full group or at least your party, Specter has now gotten a reliable way to provide AoE Might, but it's still lacking.
It also doesn't compensate for it well enough with amazing single-target abilities...
If I had to constantly switch targets but was at least able to get the job done, I'd be fine with it. But the game is generally not designed to work in that way.

Rather, I think the identity could be held by having minor AoE effects for allies, and great effects on your Siphoned ally.
Basically allowing it a bit of a pocket-support type of function until you end up in a real sticky situation and then the specter can hone in on that specific single target.
So in essence, have all (allied) effects be AoE for 5 man, with a greater effect on the siphoned Ally.

It's okay, it's better then people make it out to be... It's not perfect and it's definitely overshadowed by the majority of support builds.
At least I'm still having fun on it.

Also, I really, really, really despise that it can realistically only be played as a Condi build atm, simply because there's no comparable Power type of gear available.
Been having some succes with Wanderer's Gear but it just ain't doing it outside of a silly WvW Frontline type of setup.
So please ANet, some power-based support gear types soon..?

 

I like all of that, and it still leaves single target support the stronger option (I like the dynamic of responding to hot spots and strengthening points or boosting the group driver to make a play more of a sure thing), but more specialized. 

I do like the Fear on Dawns Repose, it's pretty clutch for me for interrupt life steal and for Control. 

I also like the Shadowstep modifier on Measured Shot even if the placement can be a gamble. I wouldn't be made if we got another Shadowstep somewhere else though, as long as a new version of Measured shot still let me cleave and pierce.

[JaxLeo.7912]

Very well, this will be a long one, so let's beging:

 

The base idea: Specter as a whole was meant to be a strong support option for thieves, bringing healing and boon sharing to the table while also being versatile.

 

The main problems i see on specter in this regard it's that it lacks both the healing and versatility other heal classes have in excess.

 

Starting with a very simple fact, just as many thief mains have been saying ever since the class was revealed, the game is not suited for a single target support class, it is not only an issue with the User Interface, the issue also comes down to how the fights are structured, not allowing time for a single healer to focus every player in their team singularly to bring them back to health when needed, so while specter has a TON of healing in it's kit, it becomes meaningless because the moment you have to heal someone the rest of your team will die or underperform due to lack of support.

 

The second issue specter has is the lack of versatility, if you want to support by giving alacrity you have to use your wells as soon as they come out of cooldown, the issue with this approach is that you can not use the them to support reactively to mechanics: Well of Bounty will likely never line up whenever you need Stability, Well of Gloom will likely never line up when you need healing, Well of Silence may not line up when you need to cleanse conditions from your allies, so you can't reliably help unlike other classes like Firebrand or Mechanist who can do either of those on demand, on top of that those classes can also swap their utility skills for ones that are more fit for the fight any time, specter does not get that luxury because as soon as you take a well out of the kit you will not be able to give your team the alacrity they need, causing them to underperform.

 

Another thing that makes the issue worse is the way the Shadow Arts trait line is designed, most of the shadow arts traits are triggered by entering and exiting stealth, for a PvP thief that is very common, for a PvE thief is unrealistic, if you want to use the healing benefits from those skills you are not able to reliably use them due to the fact that revealed exists, so if you want to heal someone by stealthing them, you won't be able to heal them again for the next 3 seconds, if you get hit by another mechanic during that time your squad is likely going to die, and given how often bosses attack it is unrealistic to expect this method of healing will be useful in any way, shape or form.

 

Last but not least one of the biggest issues for specter as a healing class is the lack of Protection, Resolution, Aegis, Regeneration and stun breaks on it's kit, with a very lackluster access to Stability and Resistance. I understand that it was designed this way for the intent of PvP balance, because giving thieves these tools on PvP on top of them having access to stealth on demand would be very difficult to counter for many people, but for a PvE healing class these boons are crucial and the fact that they are not available whatsoever is very troublesome fot a gameplay style that is meant to keep the team alive.

 

All of these issues would have to be addressed in order to make Specter work well as a healing class, there are a few things tht come to mind that could help to alleviate those issues like giving new triggers to shadow arts so that you do not require stealth to gain the benefits, and re-adjusting some of the existing skills in order to make room for new choices to thief

Some ideas of this would be reworking the shadow arts Trait line, i will attempt to explain an idea of what i would do, though it would likely be over-tuned for PvE, and likely would be hated by every PvP thief due to shifting the focus from stealth to other methods of obtaining the benefits, though i'm sure the team at ArenaNet could do much better, it's just an example of what i would consider a trait line that is more in line with mechanics that can be reliably used in PvE and have good synergy with the way thief is played:

 

the idea of this Rework to Shadow Arts would be using Barrier, shadowsteps and Initiative as a way to gain the benefits granted by shadow arts, this with the purpose of allowing thief the option to have a support role in PvE while discouraging stealth play in PvP and WvW, instead offering a play style more focused on smart use of their abilities to aid in team fights, giving thieves more versatility in their roles.

 

First of all "Shadow Savior" would be moved to the Minor Adept slot replacing "Merciful Ambush" ideally also increasing the healing done by this skill in PvE only, this would be done to give thieves a reliable way to heal using one of their main profession mechanics; "Shadow's Embrace" would be re-worked to be triggered every time you gain barrier with an internal cooldown of 5 seconds in PvE and 10 seconds in PvP/WvW, this with the focus of adding a method for thieves to remove conditions reliably; "Meld with Shadows" would now be triggered every time you gain barrier and grant 2 seconds of superspeed to up to 5 targets you apply barrier to, with an internal cooldown of 5 seconds in PvP/WvW only, this focusing on sharing thieves' mobility with your team. In the Major Master slot previously occupied by "Shadow Savior" there would be a new trait called "Empowering Shadow" this trait would give 4 seconds of Regeneration and 4 stacks of might to 5 targets around the thief on a 360 unit radius whenever a dual wield skill is used; "Shadow Siphoning" would be reworked, this trait would now grant barrier for every 5 Initiative used in PvE and every 9 Initiative used in PvP/WvW; "Cover of Shadow" would now grant Protection and Resolution for 4 seconds in PvE and 1½ seconds in PvP/WvW.

To aid with these changes some Utility skills would also be given the ability to grant asmall amount of barrier to 5 targets: Shadowstep, Shadow return, Infiltrator's Signet, Seal Area, Well of Bounty and Well of Silence.

 

Infiltrator Signet would also get additional boon duration added to it's passive.

 

Some changes to the Specter trait line would also be necessary in order to give thief the versatility it needs to be a competitive option with the other healers:

 

Entering shadow shroud would now tether the specter to 4 allies, granting them healing and boons, prioritizing the players on your party/squad sub group.

"Shadestep" would also grant 2 stacks Aegis to 5 targets for 7 seconds whenever an Elite Skill is used in PvE only, Revive percentage would be increased from 33% to 75% in PvE only.

 

The wells would also need some changes so that the benefits they offer can be used more reliably, some of those changes will be explored further down when the issues with the current implementation of Specter are explored, for now though the changes made to the well effects would be as follows: Well of Bounty would give 2 stacks of Stability on the first impact in PvE only, Well of Silence would be an AoE Stun break on it's first impact in PvE only.

 

now to mention a few of the issues of the current implementation of DPS support Specter and Condition Damage Specter in genral that make the class feel clunky to play, some issues that make the gameplay feel slow and make the class feel limited to a few skills instead of using all the wide range of choices available:

First is the wells themselves and how oppressive and limiting their gameplay style is, since you need to use at least 3 of them to cover alacrity, and you need to use them as soon as they come out of cooldown, the idea to solve this would be to let players use some of them more than once via the ammo system, that would allow the first impact to be used for Alacrity, and the second one to be  used if the effect is necessary:

 

Well of Gloom and Well of Bounty would make use of the ammo system in PvE only, with a maximum of 2 charges and gaining a charge every 20 seconds.

 

Also it is very important to note, since the wells are shadowsteps the environment is very important, in the game there are some fight arenas where the terrain is irregular, in those arenas it is very frustrating to see constantly "no valid path to target", Kaineng Overlook being a big offender in this regard, not only because some parts of the arena show this behavior, but also because there is a specific point in the arena where if you use a shadowstep you instantly die (i've fallen victim to it nearly 10 times total in the last 2 weeks), also this presents an issue with underwater content like the underwater fractal, where Condition Alacrity Specter instantly becomes useless because of the lack of ability to use it's wells altogether.

 

Another issue with Specter is how slow some of the animations are, and how easy they are to cancel, for example, the animation of Twilight Combo is very slow unless you have quickness, in such case it's just slow, it feels very clunky to have to use it constantly and makes for a very displeasing gameplay experience, the same issue goes for the animation of Well of Sorrow, it feels like it takes an eternity to finish casting, even with quickness, and it is very easy to cancel mid cast as well.

to solve this i would make the animations play faster: 66% faster for twilight combo and 100% faster for Well of Sorrow

 

Again, most of the idealized changes mentioned are likely unrealistic and over-tuned, it's just more so a way to show the thought process of how i would try to fix the class, the thought process i would like the balance team to consider in order to let Specter be the support thief they promised us it would be, i love Specter, but you know what they say, when you love something you can easily tell when there is something wrong with it, i find it fun, even with how clunky and unresponsive it can sometimes feel, i can only hope my voice my voice can reach someone that understands the points i am trying to make: the lack of synergy not only with core thief but with the game as a whole, the slow and unresponsive gameplay, and the lack of versatility.

 

Thank you for your time.

Edited March 4, 2023 by JaxLeo.7912
correcting grammatical errors

[LyraOrpheo.8450]

In the context of PvE Support Specter, my biggest wish is to drop the whack-a-mole playstyle: A predetermined rigid utility bar in which you hit things as soon as they come off cooldown regardless of if you need them. Taking a leaf out of Mechanist's playbook I wish the centerpiece of support Specter: Traversing Dusk instead worked by just playing Specter naturally, so it should be changed to proc on Shadow Step, this way you have more diversity on granting alacrity with your wells and other thief shadow steps so you now also have incentive to use a weapon that isn't _only_ Scepter (another issue I feel plagues Specter, so two birds in one stone), also imagine if you used Well of Bounty because its time to give your group Stability and not because you gotta keep it off cooldown. Additionally I'd change Dawn's Repose to shadow step from leap, so you have another source for Traversing Dusk while in shroud.

I dont think we should be playing mini-games with our own profession mechanics and managing internal timers, I'd much rather shift the difficulty into the enemies I'm facing.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by LyraOrpheo.8450

[Vornollo.5182]

On 3/4/2023 at 10:59 AM, JaxLeo.7912 said:

Very well, this will be a long one, so let's beging:

 

The base idea: Specter as a whole was meant to be a strong support option for thieves, bringing healing and boon sharing to the table while also being versatile.

 

The main problems i see on specter in this regard it's that it lacks both the healing and versatility other heal classes have in excess.

 

Starting with a very simple fact, just as many thief mains have been saying ever since the class was revealed, the game is not suited for a single target support class, it is not only an issue with the User Interface, the issue also comes down to how the fights are structured, not allowing time for a single healer to focus every player in their team singularly to bring them back to health when needed, so while specter has a TON of healing in it's kit, it becomes meaningless because the moment you have to heal someone the rest of your team will die or underperform due to lack of support.

 

The second issue specter has is the lack of versatility, if you want to support by giving alacrity you have to use your wells as soon as they come out of cooldown, the issue with this approach is that you can not use the them to support reactively to mechanics: Well of Bounty will likely never line up whenever you need Stability, Well of Gloom will likely never line up when you need healing, Well of Silence may not line up when you need to cleanse conditions from your allies, so you can't reliably help unlike other classes like Firebrand or Mechanist who can do either of those on demand, on top of that those classes can also swap their utility skills for ones that are more fit for the fight any time, specter does not get that luxury because as soon as you take a well out of the kit you will not be able to give your team the alacrity they need, causing them to underperform.

 

Another thing that makes the issue worse is the way the Shadow Arts trait line is designed, most of the shadow arts traits are triggered by entering and exiting stealth, for a PvP thief that is very common, for a PvE thief is unrealistic, if you want to use the healing benefits from those skills you are not able to reliably use them due to the fact that revealed exists, so if you want to heal someone by stealthing them, you won't be able to heal them again for the next 3 seconds, if you get hit by another mechanic during that time your squad is likely going to die, and given how often bosses attack it is unrealistic to expect this method of healing will be useful in any way, shape or form.

 

Last but not least one of the biggest issues for specter as a healing class is the lack of Protection, Resolution, Aegis, Regeneration and stun breaks on it's kit, with a very lackluster access to Stability and Resistance. I understand that it was designed this way for the intent of PvP balance, because giving thieves these tools on PvP on top of them having access to stealth on demand would be very difficult to counter for many people, but for a PvE healing class these boons are crucial and the fact that they are not available whatsoever is very troublesome fot a gameplay style that is meant to keep the team alive.

 

All of these issues would have to be addressed in order to make Specter work well as a healing class, there are a few things tht come to mind that could help to alleviate those issues like giving new triggers to shadow arts so that you do not require stealth to gain the benefits, and re-adjusting some of the existing skills in order to make room for new choices to thief

Some ideas of this would be reworking the shadow arts Trait line, i will attempt to explain an idea of what i would do, though it would likely be over-tuned for PvE, and likely would be hated by every PvP thief due to shifting the focus from stealth to other methods of obtaining the benefits, though i'm sure the team at ArenaNet could do much better, it's just an example of what i would consider a trait line that is more in line with mechanics that can be reliably used in PvE and have good synergy with the way thief is played:

 

the idea of this Rework to Shadow Arts would be using Barrier, shadowsteps and Initiative as a way to gain the benefits granted by shadow arts, this with the purpose of allowing thief the option to have a support role in PvE while discouraging stealth play in PvP and WvW, instead offering a play style more focused on smart use of their abilities to aid in team fights, giving thieves more versatility in their roles.

 

First of all "Shadow Savior" would be moved to the Minor Adept slot replacing "Merciful Ambush" ideally also increasing the healing done by this skill in PvE only, this would be done to give thieves a reliable way to heal using one of their main profession mechanics; "Shadow's Embrace" would be re-worked to be triggered every time you gain barrier with an internal cooldown of 5 seconds in PvE and 10 seconds in PvP/WvW, this with the focus of adding a method for thieves to remove conditions reliably; "Meld with Shadows" would now be triggered every time you gain barrier and grant 2 seconds of superspeed to up to 5 targets you apply barrier to, with an internal cooldown of 5 seconds in PvP/WvW only, this focusing on sharing thieves' mobility with your team. In the Major Master slot previously occupied by "Shadow Savior" there would be a new trait called "Empowering Shadow" this trait would give 4 seconds of Regeneration and 4 stacks of might to 5 targets around the thief on a 360 unit radius whenever a dual wield skill is used; "Shadow Siphoning" would be reworked, this trait would now grant barrier for every 5 Initiative used in PvE and every 9 Initiative used in PvP/WvW; "Cover of Shadow" would now grant Protection and Resolution for 4 seconds in PvE and 1½ seconds in PvP/WvW.

To aid with these changes some Utility skills would also be given the ability to grant asmall amount of barrier to 5 targets: Shadowstep, Shadow return, Infiltrator's Signet, Seal Area, Well of Bounty and Well of Silence.

 

Infiltrator Signet would also get additional boon duration added to it's passive.

 

Some changes to the Specter trait line would also be necessary in order to give thief the versatility it needs to be a competitive option with the other healers:

 

Entering shadow shroud would now tether the specter to 4 allies, granting them healing and boons, prioritizing the players on your party/squad sub group.

"Shadestep" would also grant 2 stacks Aegis to 5 targets for 7 seconds whenever an Elite Skill is used in PvE only, Revive percentage would be increased from 33% to 75% in PvE only.

 

The wells would also need some changes so that the benefits they offer can be used more reliably, some of those changes will be explored further down when the issues with the current implementation of Specter are explored, for now though the changes made to the well effects would be as follows: Well of Bounty would give 2 stacks of Stability on the first impact in PvE only, Well of Silence would be an AoE Stun break on it's first impact in PvE only.

 

now to mention a few of the issues of the current implementation of DPS support Specter and Condition Damage Specter in genral that make the class feel clunky to play, some issues that make the gameplay feel slow and make the class feel limited to a few skills instead of using all the wide range of choices available:

First is the wells themselves and how oppressive and limiting their gameplay style is, since you need to use at least 3 of them to cover alacrity, and you need to use them as soon as they come out of cooldown, the idea to solve this would be to let players use some of them more than once via the ammo system, that would allow the first impact to be used for Alacrity, and the second one to be  used if the effect is necessary:

 

Well of Gloom and Well of Bounty would make use of the ammo system in PvE only, with a maximum of 2 charges and gaining a charge every 20 seconds.

 

Also it is very important to note, since the wells are shadowsteps the environment is very important, in the game there are some fight arenas where the terrain is irregular, in those arenas it is very frustrating to see constantly "no valid path to target", Kaineng Overlook being a big offender in this regard, not only because some parts of the arena show this behavior, but also because there is a specific point in the arena where if you use a shadowstep you instantly die (i've fallen victim to it nearly 10 times total in the last 2 weeks), also this presents an issue with underwater content like the underwater fractal, where Condition Alacrity Specter instantly becomes useless because of the lack of ability to use it's wells altogether.

 

Another issue with Specter is how slow some of the animations are, and how easy they are to cancel, for example, the animation of Twilight Combo is very slow unless you have quickness, in such case it's just slow, it feels very clunky to have to use it constantly and makes for a very displeasing gameplay experience, the same issue goes for the animation of Well of Sorrow, it feels like it takes an eternity to finish casting, even with quickness, and it is very easy to cancel mid cast as well.

to solve this i would make the animations play faster: 66% faster for twilight combo and 100% faster for Well of Sorrow

 

Again, most of the idealized changes mentioned are likely unrealistic and over-tuned, it's just more so a way to show the thought process of how i would try to fix the class, the thought process i would like the balance team to consider in order to let Specter be the support thief they promised us it would be, i love Specter, but you know what they say, when you love something you can easily tell when there is something wrong with it, i find it fun, even with how clunky and unresponsive it can sometimes feel, i can only hope my voice my voice can reach someone that understands the points i am trying to make: the lack of synergy not only with core thief but with the game as a whole, the slow and unresponsive gameplay, and the lack of versatility.

 

Thank you for your time.

I quite like the majority of points you're pulling up, probably because they align quite a bit with my own, hah.

Two standout things to me would be that I'd rather have the Stunbreak on the Well of Bounty, rather than Silence. Feels a bit more thematically fitting, though either of them would suit me fine.

I could imagine that in case of the Well of Bounty getting the ammunition treatment, it would be a bit too bloated of a skill.

 

Reworking Shadow Arts in that way seems amazing on paper and I would like it very much! That said, I do believe that taking away the thematic feeling of Shadow Arts of working around and with Stealth. Essentially even going almost strictly against it, isn't the best of ideas.

Add to that, I'm not a fan of changing the Core Profession due to issues with an Elite Specialization. I'd rather solve them in the actual Spec. Though if anything, your suggestions might quite well fit and roll into a mix of Acrobatics and Trickery instead.

Adjusting some of Acrobatics to make it an actual option to pick in certain game modes would be great (though core S/D thief might suffer...).

 

If anything, they could consider doing a bit of a Ranger type of thing, where traits interact different depending on your picked Elite Specialization. Having Shadow Arts equipped as a Specter could quite well make (some of) the traits proc by going in/out of shroud, for example.

Also, reworking Traversing Dusk to provide everything simply on Shadowstep (Alacrity reduced) wouldn't be a bad idea, though I do believe it would make it too strong of an option due to how easily we can spam out shadowsteps...

Edited March 6, 2023 by Vornollo.5182
Traversing Dusk

[itspomf.9523]

For an elite spec that's so completely dependent on a single condition, which is only reliably granted by scepter (and a single attack on off-hand Dagger and Pistol/Dagger), and whose cannibalize its own utility skills, I'm not sure how to fix it.  I won't even get started on the shroud, because you can't even call it "a second health bar" when it's soaking up damage for a random allied character at the same time.

Much as I've wanted to like the aesthetic, and even put together a weird Dire/Trailblazer loadout to make it reasonable in solo play, almost nothing in core thief supports it unless you go the well-support route, and even then after further testing, it's outshone by power builds because of its general inability to engage multiple targets, nevermind Torment being dependent on face-tanking rather than kiting (thanks, raiders).

[JaxLeo.7912]

On 3/6/2023 at 3:15 AM, Vornollo.5182 said:

I quite like the majority of points you're pulling up, probably because they align quite a bit with my own, hah.

Two standout things to me would be that I'd rather have the Stunbreak on the Well of Bounty, rather than Silence. Feels a bit more thematically fitting, though either of them would suit me fine.

I could imagine that in case of the Well of Bounty getting the ammunition treatment, it would be a bit too bloated of a skill.

 

Reworking Shadow Arts in that way seems amazing on paper and I would like it very much! That said, I do believe that taking away the thematic feeling of Shadow Arts of working around and with Stealth. Essentially even going almost strictly against it, isn't the best of ideas.

Add to that, I'm not a fan of changing the Core Profession due to issues with an Elite Specialization. I'd rather solve them in the actual Spec. Though if anything, your suggestions might quite well fit and roll into a mix of Acrobatics and Trickery instead.

Adjusting some of Acrobatics to make it an actual option to pick in certain game modes would be great (though core S/D thief might suffer...).

 

If anything, they could consider doing a bit of a Ranger type of thing, where traits interact different depending on your picked Elite Specialization. Having Shadow Arts equipped as a Specter could quite well make (some of) the traits proc by going in/out of shroud, for example.

Also, reworking Traversing Dusk to provide everything simply on Shadowstep (Alacrity reduced) wouldn't be a bad idea, though I do believe it would make it too strong of an option due to how easily we can spam out shadowsteps...

I thought about the shadowsteps option at first but sadly just Infiltrator's Strike alone is enough of a reason for that to never get implemented

Also, the reason why i touched shadow arts is because it's the most problematic traitline with thief, it's "too strong" for PvP/WvW (put it on quotes because we all know it's not really the case) but it is also WAAAY too weak for PvE while also being the only traitline aside from specter that offers healing, it was meant with that double purpose, nerfing it in PvP/WvW while buffing it in PvE, the stealth needs to be removed as the focus of the traitline because as long as it  is there thief will not be allowed to get any buffs, that's just how it is, because as soon as thief gets access to defensive buffs while also getting access to stealth all the PvP community will start complaining about it as they usually do which will prompt Anet to nerf it again, the solution i provided was meant to be a middle ground, not entirely deleting the stealth based gameplay but offering good options that are tentative enough to use at the sacrifice of stealth.

On top of that i thought of changing a core traitline because it would also give more options for varied play styles not only on specter but for thief in general, for example let's say we get a future Elite Specialization that focuses on sharing group quickness, this would allow for a Heal Quickness Thief build, it also helps more with group fights allowing thieves to have more synergy on WvW squads, you could have a deadeye in the back line giving extra protection to your ranged fighters, or even work well for team fights in PvP, and all of this while not entirely gutting the stealth gameplay, noticed that i only touched a few of the options on each tier, the others would remain unchanged, so yes, stealth wouldn't be the "be all and end all" option for thief as it currently is, but it would still be a good choice, with it's trade off being support options.

Again though, that is only my opinion and idea of how to solve a wide array of issues, it's not like i have the power to make those ideas a reality, that power rests upon the devs and balance team, though again, they may be able to come up with a better solution to those issues than the wild and unlikely ideas i came up with, they were more so meant as a way to show what i think is currently wrong with the class and the general direction of where i would like it to be headed, a mere pointer in a general direction that has a chance of yielding a more positive result.

Edited March 14, 2023 by JaxLeo.7912

[mirage.8046]

I would remove alacrity from 'traversing dusk' and make alacrity trigger whenever the specter grants stealth OR barrier to allies. you can't really apply stealth, barrier, and alacrity at the same time as you'd have to take wells or deceptions (smoke screen, blinding power, or shadow refuge + any 2 wells? or off-hand pistol 5 and swap to shortbow for skill 2?). the easiest and only way you can apply barriers to allies is through a scepter, which is not good. I'd prefer traversing dusk to apply barrier. 
well of tears should corrupt boons or transfer conditions to enemies, imo. it's so useless as it is.

looking at core specs like acrobatics or shadow arts, let's say acrobatics gets a few supportive traits.

major trait: "the end of a dodge roll burns damaging conditions from you and allies." (5s, 3 to 5 allies)
major trait: "steal health from a foe whenever you cast steal; you also heal allies whenever you do so." (3 allies)
grandmaster trait: "if you cure chilled, slowness, immobilized, or crippled, you and a few allies gain temporal immunity to such conditions." (15s per ally, 8s of immunity, 5 allies)"

shadow arts:
in addition to protection, cover of shadows could grant swiftness and heal allies whenever the thief grants stealth.
a new trait that causes shadowstepping to a downed ally who then shadowsteps to you. 

this would give thief as a whole a lot of breathing room when people are pushing into enemy zergs.

[LyraOrpheo.8450]

Alacrity on Shadow Step is the flexibility we need

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

On 3/14/2023 at 2:38 PM, mirage.8046 said:

I would remove alacrity from 'traversing dusk' and make alacrity trigger whenever the specter grants stealth OR barrier to allies. you can't really apply stealth, barrier, and alacrity at the same time as you'd have to take wells or deceptions (smoke screen, blinding power, or shadow refuge + any 2 wells? or off-hand pistol 5 and swap to shortbow for skill 2?). the easiest and only way you can apply barriers to allies is through a scepter, which is not good. I'd prefer traversing dusk to apply barrier. 
well of tears should corrupt boons or transfer conditions to enemies, imo. it's so useless as it is.

looking at core specs like acrobatics or shadow arts, let's say acrobatics gets a few supportive traits.

major trait: "the end of a dodge roll burns damaging conditions from you and allies." (5s, 3 to 5 allies)
major trait: "steal health from a foe whenever you cast steal; you also heal allies whenever you do so." (3 allies)
grandmaster trait: "if you cure chilled, slowness, immobilized, or crippled, you and a few allies gain temporal immunity to such conditions." (15s per ally, 8s of immunity, 5 allies)"

shadow arts:
in addition to protection, cover of shadows could grant swiftness and heal allies whenever the thief grants stealth.
a new trait that causes shadowstepping to a downed ally who then shadowsteps to you. 

this would give thief as a whole a lot of breathing room when people are pushing into enemy zergs.

Why we can only grant ourselves ss on stealth is beyond me when we grant everything else on enter/exit