The Cheese of Jormag, one large hole with all the taste gone with the arctic wind.

[Azureus.5428]

41 minutes ago, Zaraki.5784 said:

Have though that maybe that playerbase (not you) want it this way?

I have paid for a game which had challenging starting zones, which was based upon skill and not grind. I have agreed to support this game, because it didn't cater to a bunch of drooling looters. I am a part of the playerbase that used to be the core of this product, happy to die to a ghost veteran on Plains of Ashford.

This game has changed and I am pissed off that now it offers an open world that can be so easily farmed by a bot.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

5 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

 Well the orr events were failed because they would restart quicker and hence more profit for the farmers not they were hard.

That came much later, I'm refering to the era before the extensive Orr nerfs.

 

The starter maps and general difficulty in all maps was also nerfed in the New Player Experience. Prior to that even in full Berserker gear you could struggle with veteran-level enemies but it was deemed unhealthy for the game by the devs because the test players for the NPE couldn't even handle normal-level enemies.

 

I remember it being so bad that at one point they had to introduce elite-level enemies in the open-world (they had previously only been in dungeons), because veterans couldn't threaten players anymore after the nerfs.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Ignigknawt.7869]

I always felt that CoJ needed an overhaul much like Teq and Shatterer, maybe now anet will consider it 🤔

[Astralporing.1957]

On 1/3/2023 at 1:36 AM, Azureus.5428 said:

The poor Claw. Once a superpowered beast, for which to kill we had to utilize the mighty charzookas, to protect the top of the line golems, carrying the omega-code secret Asuran explosives, shattering the bone-shattering icicles of painful death. It had mechanics and all, champions spawning everywhere, THE LEDGES, even.

Nobody really needed to kill champions even at the beginning, they did it only because of the loot. When the loot nerf came and most of champions stopped dropping anything, people stopped killing them and concentrated on killing Claw. And by "concentrated on killing Claw" i mean that they all stacked in one spot and just waited for the claw to either get slowly chipped to death, or eventually go into the burn phase on its own, because nobody really cared about escorting golems like, ever.

The main difference now is that people can do it in one burn phase, instead of in 2 or 3, and thus they stack a little bit closer to the Claw. The general approach to the event however didn't really change - people stopped "watching the ledges" long before HoT. And stopped doing other mechanics even earlier.

[Astralporing.1957]

8 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I remember it being so bad that at one point they had to introduce elite-level enemies in the open-world (they had previously only been in dungeons), because veterans couldn't threaten players anymore after the nerfs.

Then you remember wrong. Elites were introduced to replace champions you've got before that in upscaled events. And the primary reason for that was that elites were supposed to be an increase in difficulty over veterans, but without dropping champ boxes. The change was not supposed to make thing sharder - it was supposed to make upscaling events less profitable.

[Obtena.7952]

On 1/3/2023 at 2:15 PM, Azureus.5428 said:

I have paid for a game which had challenging starting zones, which was based upon skill and not grind. I have agreed to support this game, because it didn't cater to a bunch of drooling looters. I am a part of the playerbase that used to be the core of this product, happy to die to a ghost veteran on Plains of Ashford.

This game has changed and I am pissed off that now it offers an open world that can be so easily farmed by a bot.

Wait ... you think the game had challenging starting zones based on skill? When was that? People have been farming OW content with bots since it's release ... so you are only pissed off about that NOW? Seems to me you are recalling how you want to remember things, not how they actually were. 

There isn't much value in Anet continuously revisiting this encounter to match them up with current power levels in the game. They adjusted some other world bosses earlier in the year because of new player experience prepping for Steam release so that made sense but not really for Claw ... by the time people get there, even by past standards it wasn't really this massively challenging content. It was always just zerged, it hardly ever failed.

If Claw doesn't suit your fancy because it's not challenging for you ... just don't do it. There is LOTS of other content available to someone looking for that challenge that Anet doesn't need to mess with Claw. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[anninke.7469]

On 1/3/2023 at 2:52 PM, Azureus.5428 said:

It doesn't even have to be very difficult, it just should retain functional mechanics that force any kind of gameplay that isn't CLUMP UP AND SQUIRT DPS.

Yeah, IF they did it like that, it could work. I'm just not sure it would happen.

[Azureus.5428]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Wait ... you think the game had challenging starting zones based on skill? When was that? People have been farming OW content with bots since it's release ... so you are only pissed off about that NOW? Seems to me you are recalling how you want to remember things, not how they actually were. 

There isn't much value in Anet continuously revisiting this encounter to match them up with current power levels in the game. They adjusted some other world bosses earlier in the year because of new player experience prepping for Steam release so that made sense but not really for Claw ... by the time people get there, even by past standards it wasn't really this massively challenging content. It was always just zerged, it hardly ever failed.

If Claw doesn't suit your fancy because it's not challenging for you ... just don't do it. There is LOTS of other content available to someone looking for that challenge that Anet doesn't need to mess with Claw. 

a)
Removing champions from starter zones, because it would stress out the kiddies.
b)
Removing interactive objects from starter zones, because it would stress out the kiddies.
c)
Rescaling everything after the megaserver so that the power level of creatures makes a champion like an elite and a veteran like a vanilla mob with some big ideas about themselves.
d)
No reworks of upscaling after the megaserver.
e)
Pushing everything up slowly with power creep while keeping the megabuffed daily hunters in the same maps as noobs play.
f)
I was pissed about bots pretty much all the time.
g)
There are no dangerous veterans in the old Orr.

The result is that people who want to put in any skill into their gameplay get bored with the thing before they finish the main story. There is nothing in the free version that would offer them interesting PvE.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Azureus.5428

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Azureus.5428 said:

The result is that people who want to put in any skill into their gameplay get bored with the thing before they finish the main story. There is nothing in the free version that would offer them interesting PvE.

For you that might be true. For others not. You definitely don't speak for everyone and you view on the matter is not factual. It's subjective. Seems to me, what you say and the reality don't match up because it looks like there are more than enough players getting to endgame in GW2 and moving to other zones. I mean, what is your evidence to suggest this is a problem? It's nothing ... it's just something you invented based on events that happened. You have no idea if those events result in what you say here. 

For me, GW2 was never 'difficult', especially in OW and super especially in the starter zones. If people aren't interested in the game because it's too easy, then it's simply not the game for them.

What I don't get is what is your actual issue here ... because I HIGHLY doubt you are being an advocate for new players that think GW2 is too easy in the starting zones. You don't like Anet has taken the challenge out of starter zones? So what? It's not intended for you as a not-new player in the first place. Sounds to me like your just complaining for the sake of it. You don't even know if the current difficulty of starting zones is a problem in the first place. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Azureus.5428]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

My issue is the kind of the bar being set from the very beginning of the game. Either it's made for people who like to think a lot and have their abilities challenged, which results in interesting PvP and chat discussions, or it advertises itself to the kind that would brainstarve without regular shots of Mountain Dew, which slowly but surely turns the game towards a zerg-tactics looting simulator, because it's just easier to milk cash from those who aren't the brightest lightbulbs on the christmas tree.

[robertthebard.8150]

On 1/3/2023 at 11:46 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

This thought process of why most of the open-world is no longer enjoyable by many experienced players. There was a time when even veterans could find a challenge there (remember Orr being farmed 24/7 and many events still failing?) but nerf after nerf to enemies combined with powercreep to players has ruined it.

 

Even Heart of Thorns got nerfed at some point and is only a shadow of its former glory.

 

I understand, casual players want to stay casual. But have you ever considered that you're only one kind of player in the game, and that other players want to be able to enjoy the same content too, not be segregated away from you into some instance box prison so you feel more comfortable roaming free?

 

The only time I can enjoy anything in open-world is when a new Living World episode is released, no one knows the content and I can be inexperienced with everyone else, otherwise I'm not welcome anymore because I don't like oneshotting every enemy and never doing any mechanics.

So, the solution is to segregate the casual players, so you can have your challenge?  Seems legit.

I'm not sure when this event was "hard", or "more challenging"?  The last time I messed around with it was a few years back, at least, and it didn't seem like it was all that hard even then.  I mean, I didn't die, and got rewards, so either it's been really "cheesey" for a long time, or someone hasn't run it in a long time?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

45 minutes ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

So, the solution is to segregate the casual players, so you can have your challenge?  Seems legit.

I'm not sure when this event was "hard", or "more challenging"?  The last time I messed around with it was a few years back, at least, and it didn't seem like it was all that hard even then.  I mean, I didn't die, and got rewards, so either it's been really "cheesey" for a long time, or someone hasn't run it in a long time?

There would be no segregation of casual players because you'll always be carried by the players who actually do the content. That's how its always been, and how it'll always be.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Randulf.7614]

1 hour ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

So, the solution is to segregate the casual players, so you can have your challenge?  Seems legit.

I'm not sure when this event was "hard", or "more challenging"?  The last time I messed around with it was a few years back, at least, and it didn't seem like it was all that hard even then.  I mean, I didn't die, and got rewards, so either it's been really "cheesey" for a long time, or someone hasn't run it in a long time?

It was only ever challenging in the early year or two of the game. However, for the both phases to last (combined!) 1-2 minutes in a level 78-80 map is not appropriate. Tequatl isn’t challenging, but the mechanics prevent it from stagnating and becoming trivial by forcing players to do something. Even it’s to outlast waves of mobs, use some turrets, split up etc. 

Claw doesn’t need to be hard, it just needs its mechanics restored and have meaning to provide an enjoyable experience. Otherwise it might as well not exist as a world boss and just be replaced by an icebrood champion.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Randulf.7614

[robertthebard.8150]

1 hour ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

There would be no segregation of casual players because you'll always be carried by the players who actually do the content. That's how its always been, and how it'll always be.

Nice assumption that I'd need to be carried...  💤

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Azureus.5428 said:

My issue is the kind of the bar being set from the very beginning of the game. Either it's made for people who like to think a lot and have their abilities challenged, which results in interesting PvP and chat discussions, or it advertises itself to the kind that would brainstarve without regular shots of Mountain Dew, which slowly but surely turns the game towards a zerg-tactics looting simulator, because it's just easier to milk cash from those who aren't the brightest lightbulbs on the christmas tree.

Here is the problem ... the bar that is set at the beginning of the game in the core zones and especially the starting zones has ALWAYS been for the entry level, casual player and in case you didn't notice, the game exists BECAUSE of the level of difficulty it presents to people as they progress through it, not despite it like your alternative facts attempt to show. 

These areas of the game and events you have issue with ... have never been as difficult as you say they were. At least not to the level you claim they 'challenge people's abilities'. Either you weren't around or you have forgotten what a MASSIVE step up in difficulty HoT was for many people in this game which is an indication of just how inaccurate your assessment of difficulty of these core zones and events actually were, even without the current level of power creep we have since then. 

TLDR: It's safe to say most people don't share your opinion about the difficulty the original game presented to players. Even if it's easier than it used to be, it was never challenging like you claim. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, Azureus.5428 said:

My issue is the kind of the bar being set from the very beginning of the game. Either it's made for people who like to think a lot and have their abilities challenged, which results in interesting PvP and chat discussions, or it advertises itself to the kind that would brainstarve without regular shots of Mountain Dew, which slowly but surely turns the game towards a zerg-tactics looting simulator, because it's just easier to milk cash from those who aren't the brightest lightbulbs on the christmas tree.

I'd say that, while PvP chat does tend to be "interesting", it has nothing to do with the challenge level. And it's the level of "interesting" that personally i'd rather not see.

[Azureus.5428]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

has ALWAYS been for the entry level, casual player

The difficulty level has been systematically lowered, from easy enough to almost impossible to fail.  This kind of standard reaches easily up to ~40-50lvl maps now. And if something is impossible to fail, it's not even a game, it's a tutorial. Spending hours in a tutorial will easily scare away anyone who looks for an actual gaming product.

All but one of my dozen or so pro friends have left this game years ago, some returning to GW1, some choosing Path of Exile - games that offered them anything to actually develop their motor skills. This happened around the time when the dungeons got hit with the megaserver rescaling and became walking parks.

I'm still here, trying to remind people that this game used to gather souls who wanted something more that having an open world that is just a collection of shiny pinatas.

If the majority of people wants that, then it just speaks volumes about to whom the game has been marketed since the business shift.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Azureus.5428 said:

The difficulty level has been systematically lowered, from easy enough to almost impossible to fail.  This kind of standard reaches easily up to ~40-50lvl maps now. And if something is impossible to fail, it's not even a game, it's a tutorial. Spending hours in a tutorial will easily scare away anyone who looks for an actual gaming product.

The game was never of a level of difficulty that it was challenging people's abilities anyways in those zones. I mean, you have not considered how the game has evolved. These predications you have that people are scared away from the game are simply not accurate because if that were true the game wouldn't exist today. 

Your pro gamer friends left the game because it's not hard enough for them? OK ... the game does well enough without them. Again, you don't understand the market this game is targeting ... has ALWAYS targeted .. and make the necessary correlation between how the game works, why it's successful and who plays it. 

TLDR: The game isn't 'mistakenly' going down a path of ruin because it's difficulty. It's actually INTENDED to work this way, because of the market Anet wants to appeal to. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Azureus.5428]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The game was never of a level of difficulty that it was challenging people's abilities anyways in those zones. I mean, you have not considered how the game has evolved. These predications you have that people are scared away from the game are simply not accurate because if that were true the game wouldn't exist today. 

Your pro gamer friends left the game because it's not hard enough for them? OK ... the game does well enough without them. Again, you don't understand the market this game is targeting ... has ALWAYS targeted. It's not your pro-gamer friends. 

The open world, albeit rather easy, had a lot of parts that allowed for involved gameplay. And then it's been mowed down to the point of actual numbness. And the dungeons have been nerfed along with it, they're laughable now. Do you like it this way?

 

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Azureus.5428 said:

The open world, albeit rather easy, had a lot of parts that allowed for involved gameplay. And then it's been mowed down to the point of actual numbness. And the dungeons have been nerfed along with it, they're laughable now. Do you like it this way?

 

It's not about what I like ... the game isn't about me ... those zones are no longer part of my gaming experiences because I'm not a new player anymore.

But if you want to argue there are enough people that don't like this that it causes harm to the game, then you better have something more than your own personal opinion to back it up.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Azureus.5428]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not about what I like ... the game isn't about me. But if you want to argue there are enough people that don't like this that it causes harm to the game, then you better have something more than your own personal opinion to back it up.

The idea is that I was here first and the game for which I have paid had been built in a way that suited my needs. After pumping thousands in it I've realized that it's being taken away from me and sold to a crowd I preferred to avoid through choosing this particular game.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Azureus.5428 said:

The idea is that I was here first and the game for which I have paid had been built in a way that suited my needs. After pumping thousands in it I've realized that it's being taken away from me and sold to a crowd I preferred to avoid through choosing this particular game.

That's a rather ignorant idea then. It's not about who was here first. You should have more realistic expectations. Starter zones and core areas of the game ... typically not for veteran players to mow down trash mobs in. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Azureus.5428]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a rather ignorant idea then. It's not about who was here first. 

It is, it was a deal between me and the people who sold me the product.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Azureus.5428

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Azureus.5428 said:

Yes, it was a deal between me and the people who sold me the product.

Again, the game isn't about you.  There is no 'deal' because you simply pay for access to the game like everyone else. Any expectation beyond that is not realistic. You probably don't even realize you don't own your account. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Azureus.5428]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, the game isn't about you.  You just have unreasonable expectations. 

Expectations, that the level of a digital society I've signed up for through my investment will remain intact, are unreasonable?

Edited January 6, 2023 by Azureus.5428