Farming-Metas are fast food

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Vyr.9387 said:

The overwhelming focus on optimization of gameplay resulting in an overall decrease in enjoyment.
But I meant the first sentence You quoted in a general sense because it's ultimately a question of empathy - a human extending a helping hand to fellow humans - not of ones and zeroes of game design.

The overwhelming focus on optmization of the game? For every player in the farmtrain there's probably a few "picking up flowers" on the same or different map. What's that "overwhelming focus" here you're writing about? I constantly see players NOT follow the farmtrains, duh I rarely follow those trains either, so what are you even basing what you've just said here on? The mere existance of said farmtrains?

2 hours ago, Vyr.9387 said:

Read Lezbefriends's post again.
Everything You're putting into her mouth here has been first said by somebody else and not by her.

Actually, let's dance, so I - or anybody else - can just point at this post in case the thread gains momentum.

Paragraph #1: an introductory comparison setting up the scenery revolving around speed.
Questionable whether somebody's actually keeping track of the amount of events tagged and basing their tips to the leading commander on that, but there's nothing calling for any change here.

Paragraph #2: an example of fast-paced maps, further bringing forth the idea of speed.
I'd argue even the first point of contention within the thread - "...like Drizzlewood and Dragonfall..." - is moot, because nobody during a farm would stop for dialogue on any map, instead actively calling such instances boring, waste of time, etc., e. g. ze Wall at the end of the TD meta, making a player feel like there's a constant rush regardless of design.
And an utterly brilliant connection to racing adventures straight from beneath a tinfoil hat, but still nothing calling for any change whatsoever.

Wouldn't say I'm putting anything in her mouth. That's mostly because as opposed to how you see their post based on "the crescendo" (or rather: your interpretation of it) you've decided to apply to the rest of the post, OP actually goes all over the place. Comparison to fastfood is irrelevant, it changes nothing about how the game is played or what the game actually is, so I'm just skipping right over it.

I'd say the mention of "even having a race" is far from briliant, it's rather unsubstantiated and forced, considering in how many maps they appear in and what they are, including the rewards you get from those literal races. It simply plays against the point OP is trying to apparently go for. You recalling TD meta's wallwaiting, which is still popular amongst players only shows how the players aren't overally rushing around no matter what because -according to OP- that's how the game is designed and instead they can -and do- play what they feel like, even without you or OP reminding them what type of fun is the correct one.

2 hours ago, Vyr.9387 said:

Paragraph #3: another example of how everything is speed first and foremost.
As the audience probably guessed at this point, no change calls.

The audience notices how you're conveniently skipping the whole paragraph of straight up complaints about people not waiting for OP, where they're also throwing in a bonus complaint about skyscale -or lack of it- (which they also wanted to get for free or through gemstore*, according to their another thread. Not much of an exploration fan that OP is, eh? 🤔). Not call for a change. What is it then? What the point of that particular paragraph is?

2 hours ago, Vyr.9387 said:

Paragraph #4: a crescendo giving meaning to the previous three paragraphs more or less purely about speed, calling for a change in how people view the game.
Not. How. It. Should. Be. Made/Played.
Not even as a general rule, Lezbefriends literally says "...every once in a while".

And yes, finally the crescendo you've... carefully avoided: "Enough with fast food maps." It's right there, staring at you right at the start of paragraph #4.

But hey, maybe it's not about existance or non-existance of these maps, maybe it's not about changing what anet does or releases. Maybe it really is just about "reminding the players that rushing isn't needed, so just take a breather and watch flowers grow or w/e"? Maybe. Then again in the last response to me ("On the other hand for OP to not rush with those farmtrains... they just need to not join a farmtrain and go on their own pace. So what exactly is the issue here? ") OP writes:

"The system is designed so you have to run speedtrains to make the most gold? Duh?"

So no, it doesn't seem this is what it is about. It apparently is about -somehow- making maps unable to be optimized, since if they can be optimized, some people will inevitably choose to do it and... there's nothing wrong with it. On the other hand if those maps exists, OP can't do somthing else, something slower, something they'd enjoy more, because... you know, those other players playing how I don't want them to play, make more gold and if they make more gold... I can't play something that gives me less optimal results measured in gph. Right? Or am I missing and terribly misinterpreting something here?

Edited January 4, 2023 by Sobx.1758
*don't remember which one it was

[Obtena.7952]

You know what? If you don't like the maps, don't play in them. Don't like the rushed meta, you still have the option to do the events at your own pace and get left behind and not worry about it because you can repeat it at your own pace and do the events you missed as many times as you like.

Not every single thing in the game needs to be something you like. in fact, not every single thing in the game CAN be something you like. What you CAN do is figure out how you fit into this online MMO and make the best of it because I can assure you, telling Anet you don't want more McD maps will not ensure you don't get more of them. It's not about you. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Vyr.9387]

53 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The overwhelming focus on optmization of the game? For every player in the farmtrain there's probably a few "picking up flowers" on the same or different map. What's that "overwhelming focus" here you're writing about? I constantly see players NOT follow the farmtrains, duh I rarely follow those trains either, so what are you even basing what you've just said here on? The mere existance of said farmtrains?

"Overwhelming focus on X" doesn't equal "overwhelming majority of people focusing on X". The difference being that in the first case the noun "focus" is being amplified by the adjective "overwhelming", denoting that the concentration is what's too much, while in the second one the "majority" is "overwhelming", meaning the number of people being way too large.
Ideas worlds apart.

Just as You ignored what Lezbefriends wrote and put words into her mouth, so are You doing the same to me now, trying to attack my argument by basically making up something I haven't said. This is the very definition of the straw man fallacy, and I'm not interested in fighting over basics of logic, especially if You're clearly not keen on the conversation going anywhere.
 

Spoiler

Also - existence.
Thought it was a typo the first time around, but You've made the mistake twice now.
Still debating whether English warrants pointing out such things, but being aware of them for now could be useful somewhere down the line.

Now that it's clear whence the wind blows, the question is: will debating the rest of Your straw men army accomplish something?
Obviously not.

Will I do it anyway because I enjoy (intellectual) fencing dearly?
I would.
But everybody knows how's that going to end, especially since You're apparently in the combating - not conversing - mood already, so... go grab a tea, preferably with a change of scenery, and hit me up when the world's not breathing down Your neck.
I'll be around!

[Sobx.1758]

On 1/4/2023 at 11:38 PM, Vyr.9387 said:

"Overwhelming focus on X" doesn't equal "overwhelming majority of people focusing on X". The difference being that in the first case the noun "focus" is being amplified by the adjective "overwhelming", denoting that the concentration is what's too much, while in the second one the "majority" is "overwhelming", meaning the number of people being way too large.
Ideas worlds apart.

No worries, I understand what "overwhelming focus" means, at no point I was somehow suggesting it means it has to be majority. What is not clear is what it's supposed to be describing here. Are you seriously trying to complain point out players who want to optimalize game shouldn't do it because they don't know it's not fun for them? That's most probably just false. So what's the point of writing that in the first place? People do what they want to do. It just so happens that people don't have to want the same thing you or OP does. Chances are the players "being so kindly reminded of sightseeing [or whatever else it's supposed to be, doesn't really matter]" here are simply bored to death by doing that and require way more active gameplay than OP does. And all of that is fine... until -again- you realize OP's actual problem is their [OP's] fixation on gold gain and not ability to enjoy content however they want, as was made apparent by their response on the previous page. So perhaps it's time to remind OP they can enjoy the game without optimalizing their gph.

On 1/4/2023 at 11:38 PM, Vyr.9387 said:

Just as You ignored what Lezbefriends wrote and put words into her mouth, so are You doing the same to me now, trying to attack my argument by basically making up something I haven't said. This is the very definition of the straw man fallacy, and I'm not interested in fighting over basics of logic, especially if You're clearly not keen on the conversation going anywhere.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also - existence.
Thought it was a typo the first time around, but You've made the mistake twice now.
Still debating whether English warrants pointing out such things, but being aware of them for now could be useful somewhere down the line.

Now that it's clear whence the wind blows, the question is: will debating the rest of Your straw men army accomplish something?
Obviously not.

Will I do it anyway because I enjoy (intellectual) fencing dearly?
I would.
But everybody knows how's that going to end, especially since You're apparently in the combating - not conversing - mood already, so... go grab a tea, preferably with a change of scenery, and hit me up when the world's not breathing down Your neck.
I'll be around!

I didn't ignore what they wrote and I explained that in the very post you've just quoted. Feel free to respond to what I said instead of giving me some bad "no u" attempt at non-answer in an effort to avoid what I wrote. Or was OP's last response to me a bit too much for you to go on with your narrative anyways?

I made up something you didn't say? Where? And while we're at it, does that hypothetical existence of some strawman somehow invalidate the rest of the post? Probably not. And yet... here we are, you've already decided I'm the one being "combative" here when it's your post that consists in its entirety of snarky remarks having nothing to do with what is being discussed. Solid ending to this comment chain, I guess, not that it deserves much more time anyways.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Morti must be dancing with glee; another thread that started an argument.  Kudos.  🙄

[lezbefriends.7516]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Not every single thing in the game needs to be something you like. in fact, not every single thing in the game CAN be something you like. What you CAN do is figure out how you fit into this online MMO and make the best of it because I can assure you, telling Anet you don't want more McD maps will not ensure you don't get more of them. It's not about you. 

It's not about "liking", it's about not feeling stupid for getting less gold doing the meta I like. BALANCE THE FRIKIN METAS. There's nothing that makes Dragonfall or Drizzlewood harder. Why I gotta grind them, then?

[lezbefriends.7516]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So no, it doesn't seem this is what it is about. It apparently is about -somehow- making maps unable to be optimized, since if they can be optimized, some people will inevitably choose to do it and... there's nothing wrong with it. On the other hand if those maps exists, OP can't do somthing else, something slower, something they'd enjoy more, because... you know, those other players playing how I don't want them to play, make more gold and if they make more gold... I can't play something that gives me less optimal results measured in gph. Right? Or am I missing and terribly misinterpreting something here?

You do realize that people getting more gold from certain metas means prices in general will inflate, right? They nerfed Istan. They want you to do the metas that THEY choose, play the way that THEY want you to play. It's nothing so petty as you're making it out to be. Please look outside your microscopic little bubble, please.

[Obtena.7952]

22 minutes ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

It's not about "liking", it's about not feeling stupid for getting less gold doing the meta I like. BALANCE THE FRIKIN METAS. There's nothing that makes Dragonfall or Drizzlewood harder. Why I gotta grind them, then?

So wait a minute ... you are of the belief that Anet has to balance the game around you so you don't feel stupid? OK ... I guess you missed the part when I said the game wasn't about you. That's just a hang up you need to get over. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[lezbefriends.7516]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So wait a minute ... you are of the belief that Anet has to balance the game around you so you don't feel stupid? OK ... I guess you missed the part when I said the game wasn't about you. That's just a hang up you need to get over. 

The customer is always right. After all, everyone here regurgitates the same old mantra -- "it's just a business."

[Obtena.7952]

30 minutes ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

The customer is always right. After all, everyone here regurgitates the same old mantra -- "it's just a business."

That's absurd because this game has LOTS of customers that obviously think very differently which results in exactly what I'm telling you here. Anet can't change the game just to accommodate your insecurities over missing out on some gold. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Freya.9075]

9 minutes ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

The customer is always right. After all, everyone here regurgitates the same old mantra -- "it's just a business."

I am a customer too. And I feel the farming speed is fine. And that it should sometimes even be faster. I don’t feel stupid farming these. And all the other players are customers and may feel differently than you and me. So who should anet listen to? You’re not the main character here. Neither am I. We are a community with different opinions. 

[lezbefriends.7516]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's absurd because this game has LOTS of customers that obviously think very differently which results in exactly what I'm telling you here.

 

2 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

I don’t feel stupid farming these. And all the other players are customers and may feel differently than you and me.

Yes, that's why we have DISCUSSIONS, so each side can CHIME IN and give their viewpoints... not this sarcastic kitten that you posters are known for.

[Freya.9075]

7 minutes ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

 

Yes, that's why we have DISCUSSIONS, so each side can CHIME IN and give their viewpoints... not this sarcastic kitten that you posters are known for.

Nothing sarcastic about my post. Just pointing out that what you said shows you feel they should cater to your wishes only. Not that you’re open for discussions about the topic and that other “customers” may feel differently then you. 

I may provide sarcasm occasionally as well as humor when I feel it’s appropriate, but this was not one of those times. 

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

The customer is always right. After all, everyone here regurgitates the same old mantra -- "it's just a business."

The customer is always right. Except that you're not the only customer.  I like Dragonfall and particularly Drizzlewood quite a lot. I'm a customer too. And that's business.

The customer is always right but sometimes, that customer is in the minority. Those are popular metas a lot of people like. Why should you define the term for everyone.

 

Anyway if you don't go on the most organized maps, you can get stuff done without the same rush. That's what I've found personally. Not all maps are run the same way.

[Migraine.5810]

I just want to add to this topic from the perspective of a fresh player who didn't have super mounts and stuff like that when I arrived in Verdant Brink the first time.
It took a really long time and lots of mob/gathering-grinding to level my masteries there (and in the other HoT-zones) because I could simply not keep up with the "Fastfood trains" that were running around, so I was forced to grind mobs and only stick to events that were restricted to one smaller area (if the trains even bothered with those, which they didn't always do).

It's of course a lot easier when you have all the tools at your disposal and know the routine and route by heart.
I mean I do understand that if you've done something 50+ times, then you probably want to be as effective as possible, but this hurts new/inexperienced players.
So yes. just like OP I feel a distaste for that kind of "meta", even now when I have more mounts and half the HoT masteries unlocked. It also makes the game feel a bit like a job, you have to "min-max" to keep up, otherwise it's bye bye.
 

Edit: Feel free to actually reply if you have an argument (instead of just dropping reactions) , because so far I haven't seen any good ones in this thread.
My general impression after reading the posts here has been that people who are arguing that the OP has no point at all have themselves become jaded with time, something that naturally happens when you've done something so many times that it's basically on auto-pilot, and you only see it through the lens of "min-max", therefore losing objectivity in the process. It's possible that I'll also become like this in due time, but for now I'm trying to see things a bit more objectively.

I actually wouldn't have minded this as much if there were more events that weren't focused around flying/gliding/jumping on mushrooms in general. But I was stuck in Verdant Brink, couldn't progress my mastery in central Tyria and couldn't follow the fastfood trains either. And in the few cases I finally did manage to reach a boss (like jumping those steep cliffs where the blood-crazed flying dragon-thing spawns near the HP/mastery), it was usually either dead or I got one hit in and didn't get any credit.

It was rinse and repeat like this for several days for me, in the end I got so frustrated and bored that I made an alt and played in central Tyria instead.

I did ask in the local chat a few times for tips and how to play the zone, and everyone (with one exception) were saying that it's a difficulty spike map and that they understood why new players often find it difficult, because most of them had the same experience.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Migraine.5810
added additional stuff

[costepj.5120]

The answer is obvious; shut down all the fast food restaurants and mandate that people only eat at restaurants with really slow service. Doesn't matter if they can't spare 3 hours for dinner every night, it's for their own good. They will enjoy their food more if they have to wait for it. And no one should feel like a second class citizen because they don't find fast food fun.

[Schimmi.6872]

9 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

You do realize that people getting more gold from certain metas means prices in general will inflate, right? They nerfed Istan. They want you to do the metas that THEY choose, play the way that THEY want you to play. It's nothing so petty as you're making it out to be. Please look outside your microscopic little bubble, please.

No, it doesn't mean that prices will inflate, because most of the open world farms (I think the only exception is the bauble farm) rely on materials and items and not on raw gold, so they can actually remove gold via tp-taxes. If you check the tp-charts of materials you can actually find rather large inflations on the supply side, like e.g. ectos.

[kharmin.7683]

9 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

You do realize that people getting more gold from certain metas means prices in general will inflate, right? They nerfed Istan. They want you to do the metas that THEY choose, play the way that THEY want you to play. It's nothing so petty as you're making it out to be. Please look outside your microscopic little bubble, please.

Not every player plays just for gold.

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

 

Yes, that's why we have DISCUSSIONS, so each side can CHIME IN and give their viewpoints

Sure, have all the discussions you want. No one said you shouldn't. As part of this discussion, you are being told Anet can't cater to your individual needs and the very idea they should because you are 'right as a customer' is absurd. That's not just a viewpoint, it's a fact.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Dev.1984]

Yes, Meta Events are like Fast Food, especially those you mention. The problem is deeper than you think. End Game in this game is about fashion/Legendary. There a couple of interesting things to get in the game but most are acquired through the gem store. To buy those items you need gold or cash, (Imagin supporting the game you like and spend 15, 20 Dollars a month). Same problem with every single free to play game, at least this one is not pay to win, bordering with some items, yes, but you can go away without them.

[Linken.6345]

38 minutes ago, Dev.1984 said:

Yes, Meta Events are like Fast Food, especially those you mention. The problem is deeper than you think. End Game in this game is about fashion/Legendary. There a couple of interesting things to get in the game but most are acquired through the gem store. To buy those items you need gold or cash, (Imagin supporting the game you like and spend 15, 20 Dollars a month). Same problem with every single free to play game, at least this one is not pay to win, bordering with some items, yes, but you can go away without them.

 How would you have to **go away without** the gemstore stuff?

[Dev.1984]

1 minute ago, Linken.6345 said:

 How would you have to **go away without** the gemstore stuff?

You don't need nothing from the store to play the game at any level. They are "debatable", sure, but you don't need them. For me Meta events play an important role on this kind of gameplay style. 

[Zaret.1450]

The metas dont force you to do anything, its the comander and the other players that rush from place to place, obviously to get the most benefit from the meta in the shortest time, if you lack mounts, or your pc is worse, or just cant keep up because you go in a calm manner, well sry but its not the games fault, and i have a slow potato pc myself, but just find groups a bit slower, or comand myself however i can or just accept the losses, what do you want? an event that waits for you specifically? or an event that needs a minimun of x players? any possible solution ends with another problem, and if you make events be slower then it wont be as worth and people will stop doing them.

 

[Dev.1984]

8 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

The metas dont force you to do anything, its the comander and the other players that rush from place to place, obviously to get the most benefit from the meta in the shortest time, if you lack mounts, or your pc is worse, or just cant keep up because you go in a calm manner, well sry but its not the games fault, and i have a slow potato pc myself, but just find groups a bit slower, or comand myself however i can or just accept the losses, what do you want? an event that waits for you specifically? or an event that needs a minimun of x players? any possible solution ends with another problem, and if you make events be slower then it wont be as worth and people will stop doing them

I don't disagree with you. I admit, I participate on them, do i like them? Hell no.  I like to play the game to have fun, not to be "efficient"

[Rogue.8235]

I've been in meta events with people rushing around faster than I can track the group.  In those instances, rather than get frustrated, I just shrug and go do my own thing.  My mindset is essentially, "eh, I tried.  I'm gonna slaughter these things over here..."

There's nothing wrong with player zergs rushing around the map.  Particularly, in this game, the zergs aren't dragging mobs but actually killing everything.  My only problem with zergs in other games is the inevitable wave of mobs that'll swarm and kill me if I don't hop on board.  Here, zergs don't interfere at all.

If you prefer a laid-back, easy-going style of play, then just play that way.  If you're only concern is grinding for stuff, then you've shifted your enjoyment away from enjoyment through gameplay and into enjoyment through the dopamine hit from rewards.  There is completely nothing wrong with this.  It's only bad if you are negatively affected by your own need to grind away.  If you don't enjoy grind, then you need to start the process of adjusting your gaming mindset towards something you do enjoy.

 

I have never felt pressured to rush through anything in this game, and am able to play it without rushing around.  Even during Mad King, I command labyrinth runs at an easy-going pace, and advertise that is what the squad will be doing.  You can do the same thing, advertise that you want to do a meta event at a slower pace and lead a squad.

Also note, I'm blind, and it's hard enough to merely follow a single player in the game who is trying to help guide me, let alone a chaotic group rushing around.  It's possible to enjoy the game without doing anything that frusterates you.