Achievement #3459 - Legendary Armorer

[Moradorin.6217]

4 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

I do not like the idea of giving a discount for specific skins provided that one already has the other legendary armors. This makes things complex and to be consistent, all the legendary armor skins will have to provide this option. This might not matter given the current status that PvP and WvW legendary armors don't have their own unique skins, so such options for them are not needed. However, once this discount option is provided, in the future when PvP and WvW get their own skins, the same discount option should be provided, which makes things unnecessary complex and more expensive to implement.

I understand where this is coming from, because legendary armory eliminated the motivations to have multiple same weight armors. However, this has been done and we're not going back. Moving forward, we shouldn't think about "legendary armors", but just some unique skins that also grant you legendary level quality of life improvements, if one doesn't have it already. Think of it as unlocking something, rather than actually getting some physical items (not really physical, but you get the idea). This is completely the same for legendary weapons, where we even reached to the 3rd generation. I look forward to PvP and WvW unique skins, and the whole new 2nd generation legendary armors, which should have unique skins and similar costs with 1st gen, just like weapons.

That is the point of the discount. Its not a discount. Its a price that reflects its a skin and not armor. EI no clovers, no tier 3, 4, 6 trophies basically. In other words the same as crafting the armor minus the materials that logically are associated with the armors gold cost vs the value and work associated of the collections that is always associated with the skins.

Your suggestion sounds nice untill you consider that the theoretical sets of armor you talk about will never be made just like SAB w 3 + 4. So its more BS (blowing smoke up the u know what) vs a suggested solution that exists within a framework of reality.

[Moradorin.6217]

4 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

I think you mean IF PvP and WvW get their own skins.

Considering they were implemented because people said we dont want no fancy skins just give us legendary armor in our game mode dont force us to pve.

Some people may have said that, however, everyone who made pvp/wvw legendary armor prior to the armory being a thing are not ALL in the group you speak of. I would say most bever said those things and just made armor in the area of the gamethey found themselves.

 

Before the armory most of this conversation had no point and wouldnt have been possible to consider.

 

The Armory changed how Legenary items and skins are handled. This is just kinda the last part that was never resolved. Im ok with new skin sets I just have no faith or expectation of that and think it still deserves a solution. Im flexible on what that would be tho in the end.

[Moradorin.6217]

23 hours ago, Sarius.9285 said:

well the title you get is "Envoys Herald" because you get all the "Envoy" Armors.

 

But a similar title for the other armors would be cool 

Agreed. but the issue about skins and a way to unlock them all from all modes that makes sense and is sorta consistent would seem to be lacking.

[Tic Tac Toe.1482]

Forget skins, titles, and AP.  I just want a PvE open world way to get legendary armor.

[Cynder.2509]

The achievement is fine as it is. The title you get has envoy in it which makes sense since the raid armor is called envoy. 
Also raid armor is very easy to obtain. Just git gud and stop complaining. 

[godfat.2604]

5 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

That is the point of the discount. Its not a discount. Its a price that reflects its a skin and not armor. EI no clovers, no tier 3, 4, 6 trophies basically. In other words the same as crafting the armor minus the materials that logically are associated with the armors gold cost vs the value and work associated of the collections that is always associated with the skins.

Whatever that is called doesn’t matter, the point is that it needs some different recipes or mechanisms, which is adding complexity to all the future legendary armor sets. And I think it’s also clear that all the legendary stuffs are considered one of the important gold sinks in the game. I really don’t think Anet would like this idea.

5 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Your suggestion sounds nice untill you consider that the theoretical sets of armor you talk about will never be made just like SAB w 3 + 4. So its more BS (blowing smoke up the u know what) vs a suggested solution that exists within a framework of reality.

That is true, we don’t know if Anet would ever do that, but I think it’ll be silly if they don’t ever, even when it might be late, considering that they even announced the 4th expansion.

On the other hand, we don’t even need to go that far. Just when they add unique skins to PvP and WvW, the same thing will show. I assume you support adding this option to both PvP and WvW skins, which works, too, just more additional work for all future legendary skins, and we left out legendary weapons for the same thing. Of course, consistency may not be that important, but this will be another inconsistency introduced if it’s only for armors.

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

I do not like the idea of giving a discount for specific skins provided that one already has the other legendary armors. This makes things complex and to be consistent, all the legendary armor skins will have to provide this option. This might not matter given the current status that PvP and WvW legendary armors don't have their own unique skins, so such options for them are not needed. However, once this discount option is provided, in the future when PvP and WvW get their own skins, the same discount option should be provided, which makes things unnecessary complex and more expensive to implement.

 

That's the thing, though. There already is a discount for the WvW and PvP armours if you already have legendary and just want the skin. In fact, precursor has the same appearance as the legendary, so you already HAVE the skin before you get the legendary in the first place.

Maybe that will change in the future, but I think asking people to go through all the effort of getting legendary again purely for a skin is a bit of a big ask. We already have a precedent for getting additional legendary skins with the Aurene weapons - the process still isn't cheap, but it's still a far cry from crafting an entirely new legendary weapon. Now, you could argue that having an Aurene weapon still doesn't give you a discount on a gen 1 or gen 2 weapon, and you'd be right... however, the distinction is that there is a potential benefit to having more than one of a weapon (even for a two-handed weapon, you might want to have two of the same weapon to be able to proc weaponswap effects). For armour, though, there are no situations where you need two of the same legendary armour piece. So I think it's reasonable to treat legendary armour skins like gen 3 variant skins - once you have the legendary slot unlocked, you can get skin variants for relatively cheap.

And I say this as someone who has light and heavy Envoy and is planning to get Envoy rather than WvW or PvP legendary as it is. So, at least as things currently stand, I gain nothing from making this argument... except that maybe more people would play raids to get those skins even if they already have the legendary slot filled from another source, rather than deciding that the legendary price tag is too much just to get a skin.

[godfat.2604]

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

There already is a discount for the WvW and PvP armours if you already have legendary and just want the skin.

The whole presumption is that unique legendary armor skins will be added for PvP and WvW. If this is not the case, the whole reasoning falls apart. However, if unique skins for PvP and WvW is added, and if we provide an option for a discount, I believe it should be available to all kinds of legendary armor skins, not just for Envoy, otherwise it'll be inconsistent and unfair. I wouldn't be against this option, just don't think it's worth to go with this path.

6 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Now, you could argue that having an Aurene weapon still doesn't give you a discount on a gen 1 or gen 2 weapon, and you'd be right...

Yes, it's different. Aurene weapon skins are their own variants. Envoy armor skins are not a variant of PvP or WvW armor skins in the current status. Lore-wise it probably won't fit either, even though I wouldn't care about lore.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

however, the distinction is that there is a potential benefit to having more than one of a weapon (even for a two-handed weapon, you might want to have two of the same weapon to be able to proc weaponswap effects).

This is true, even though using the same two-handed weapons is a bad design, it's still a valid use case. Indeed it only becomes useless for the 3rd two-handed legendary weapon, and the 4th (or 2 is enough?) one handed legendary weapon.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

So I think it's reasonable to treat legendary armour skins like gen 3 variant skins - once you have the legendary slot unlocked, you can get skin variants for relatively cheap.

That makes sense. I'll prefer to put my bets on adding unique legendary PvP and WvW skins though. If the same options can then be applied to all legendary armor skins, I have no problem with that, just think that might be quite some work, especially if there will be a whole new 2nd generation legendary armors, those might also need a discount option, too!

[Shadows Creed.3902]

This has been a pretty contentious topic of convo for a while now.  

 

Reality is i don't see much great value in making separate achieves for each set.   You don't need 3 sets of heavy legendary armor.   I would like to see them make it any none weapon legendary item including back pieces etc. 

[Moradorin.6217]

On 1/7/2023 at 10:19 PM, godfat.2604 said:

Whatever that is called doesn’t matter, the point is that it needs some different recipes or mechanisms, which is adding complexity to all the future legendary armor sets. And I think it’s also clear that all the legendary stuffs are considered one of the important gold sinks in the game. I really don’t think Anet would like this idea.

That is true, we don’t know if Anet would ever do that, but I think it’ll be silly if they don’t ever, even when it might be late, considering that they even announced the 4th expansion.

On the other hand, we don’t even need to go that far. Just when they add unique skins to PvP and WvW, the same thing will show. I assume you support adding this option to both PvP and WvW skins, which works, too, just more additional work for all future legendary skins, and we left out legendary weapons for the same thing. Of course, consistency may not be that important, but this will be another inconsistency introduced if it’s only for armors.

Considering that pvp/wvw legendary armor already has 2 skin versions one that is Mistforged and and reflects extra work from needing to level (was once very high lvl req.) and the requirement to get the skins was reduced to make it easier to unlock and doesnt require you make ANY armor at all to get the skins. Meanwhile, if you then consider, that raid armor all requires actual armor be crafted then upgraded to legendary with all the gifts to get the skins. Its hard to see how anyone can argue that makes sense. Additionally, I dont see how just adding a 3rd skin set to legendary armor makes any sense or actually fixes the imbalance. All that would do is leave the imbalance in place and give the people with raid armor ANOTHER set of skins they can get. The only advantage if any is that each set would have a unique skin for legendary upgrade. It wouldnt fix the disparity really and would require the most dev time. So although I would accept the solution if it was presented I dont see it as a good one.

 

IMO the best solution is to simply add a vendor for raid armor skins has specific unlock requirements for each skin to be purchased and that takes all the same work and items that would be used to craft the legendary minus the trophy, clover, mc, but still require the LI, prov tokens, etc. That would be balanced and wouldnt short change anyone. Furthermore, it would give all the sets equivalent purchase paths without hurting anyone.

 

The remaining issue for a few players would be those who crafted multiple sets of armor prior to armory JUST for the skins and redundant armor sets. Those people would be due compensation just like the people who got compensated for extra weapons of the same skin/type to bring everyone into balance.

 

The achievement could still require crafting or not but I dont see why it should require people to do anything more than what I describe. It would require all the same work and raiding be done to get all the skins as it would still take all the same LI, achievements, tokens, etc.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 1/7/2023 at 8:33 PM, Linken.6345 said:

I think you mean IF PvP and WvW get their own skins.

Considering they were implemented because people said we dont want no fancy skins just give us legendary armor in our game mode dont force us to pve.

No. They were implemented because people asked for legendary armor available for WvW players. And people said that "skinless version" is fine, only because the only options they were given were skinless legendary or no legendary at all. But if you think people did not want skins for those sets, you are completely wrong, and either don't remember it too well, or are intentionally twisting what has actually happened.

Edited January 9 by Astralporing.1957

[godfat.2604]

15 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

The only advantage if any is that each set would have a unique skin for legendary upgrade. It wouldnt fix the disparity really and would require the most dev time. So although I would accept the solution if it was presented I dont see it as a good one.

There's probably misunderstanding here, so I would try to clarify my imagined implementation when I say adding unique skins to PvP and WvW legendary armors.

To add unique skins to these armors, I would imagine they just change the current legendary armors to have the new unique skins, so be new or old legendary armors, they will unlock the new one.

I think it's a mistake that Anet made both Mistforged one and non-Mistforged one able to upgrade to the legendary version, because now there are actually 2 different kinds of legendary PvP and WvW legendary armors. How do we deal with this fairly? I propose we merge the Mistforged one and non-Mistforged one into the same legendary armor, and then change that with the new skins. What if someone made 2, both Mistforged one and non-Mistforged one? It's a weird decision and I doubt if anyone had done that, but if there are, refund the materials for one set, because now there's only one set with the new unique skins. To better understand this, bullet points to separate scenarios:

* People who have non-Mistforged legendary armor: Now this legendary armor will use the new unique skins, and that will be unlocked. The previous skins remain unlocked

* People who have Mistforged legendary armor: Now this legendary armor will use the new unique skins, and that will be unlocked. The previous skins remain unlocked

* People who have both armors: One of the legendary armor will be converted to the new one, and the other one will be refunded with materials. All the previous skins remain unlocked

Does this make more sense to you now?

28 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

All that would do is leave the imbalance in place and give the people with raid armor ANOTHER set of skins they can get.

This should not be the case, because if they want the new unique legendary PvP or WvW armor skins, they need to make the corresponding PvP or WvW legendary armors, not just the skins, and no discounts. People who have only bought the ascended ones, will remain with just the ascended skins, Mistforged or not.

Hopefully they didn't salvage their precursors, if they want to upgrade. If Anet want to be generous, they can try to give them one piece of the precursor based on which skins were unlocked. They would earn salvaged items for free this way, which I suppose it's not a big deal. I totally think it's fine if they just have to buy the precursors again.

[Moradorin.6217]

37 minutes ago, godfat.2604 said:

* People who have non-Mistforged legendary armor: Now this legendary armor will use the new unique skins, and that will be unlocked. The previous skins remain unlocked

well I think would be even more complicated than what you propose because the mistforged has extra requirements to unlock the ability to obtain it.

 

37 minutes ago, godfat.2604 said:

* People who have Mistforged legendary armor: Now this legendary armor will use the new unique skins, and that will be unlocked. The previous skins remain unlocked

I understand that however, this still seems to overlook the fact that you can get all the pvp/wvw skins without actually crafting ANY Legendary armor, at present. Meanwhile, no similar path to ANY raid skins exsist no matter how much legendary armor I ready have (LikeI myself have a full set for each armor type)

37 minutes ago, godfat.2604 said:

* People who have both armors: One of the legendary armor will be converted to the new one, and the other one will be refunded with materials. All the previous skins remain unlocked

I agree anyone who after any changes are found to have been overcharged get compensated by getting the materials returned or what ever makes sense to refund them.

 

I still think a better and easier suggestion is to just add a new vendor for Envoy Armor sets that is setup the same as wvw/pvp with respect to having per item unlock requirements and that takes all the same materials that would be used to craft legendary -(minus) the trophies, clovers, etc. So it would take the LI, prov tokens, etc and would need to have been unlocked via envoy collections, etc. Basically, to put it in line with how other Legendary armor skins are obtained. Its really the ONLY way this issue could be resolved that would be fair to all and not require entire armor skin sets to designed to accomplish a lesser fix(less clean, more work, doesnt 100% resolve issue).

Again a new merchant is the only real fix available that I could see. Im not holding my breath either way. However, I think it makes sense if we call at least develop a consensus about what would be a realistic fix.

 

Also I appreciate your interest in the topic. I think its worth talking about too.

Edited January 9 by Moradorin.6217

[HelveticaScenario.6485]

On 1/9/2023 at 1:56 PM, Moradorin.6217 said:

I still think a better and easier suggestion is to just add a new vendor for Envoy Armor sets that is setup the same as wvw/pvp with respect to having per item unlock requirements and that takes all the same materials that would be used to craft legendary -(minus) the trophies, clovers, etc. So it would take the LI, prov tokens, etc and would need to have been unlocked via envoy collections, etc. Basically, to put it in line with how other Legendary armor skins are obtained. Its really the ONLY way this issue could be resolved that would be fair to all and not require entire armor skin sets to designed to accomplish a lesser fix(less clean, more work, doesnt 100% resolve issue).

 

Agreed. It really feels like they didn't think this through at all when adding the legendary armory.

 

Currently, if you get the raid armor for the skins, then any resources you have already spent on PvP or WvW lege armor will essentially have been completely and utterly wasted.

[Moradorin.6217]

16 hours ago, HelveticaScenario.6485 said:

 

Agreed. It really feels like they didn't think this through at all when adding the legendary armory.

 

Currently, if you get the raid armor for the skins, then any resources you have already spent on PvP or WvW lege armor will essentially have been completely and utterly wasted.

Yep exactly. If you get raid armor as legendary armor then you can get all the legendary skins from pvp/wvw without ever needing to make any armor or use up materials to create gifts that consume tier 3,4,5,6 trophies, mystic clovers, etc. Its a giant savings only available to those who happened to craft raid armor.

 

For people who crafted legendary armor other than raid armor before the armory changes. They, in effect, are charged more to get the same complete set of legendary armor skins.

 

Its clearly missing some other way to get the raid skins. Some will argue it just means legendary wvw/raid armor should get new skin set that is only from crafting legendary which I would accept if Anet said that's the prefered solution. However, the Mistforged armor is plenty nice and, personally, I would say its a waste of dev time to create a 3rd skin set vs. Just adding another merchant to the raid wing as described in my previous post.