[NOV 29 PATCH][PVE]DH is Still Just "Meh"

[FtoPScrub.5476]

This is a follow up to my feedback from https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/120231-aug-28-patchpve-dh-still-sucks/page/2/#comment-1776156 which was based on an older patch. Since then DH got some decent buffs, but to keep it concise, it simply wasn't enough. Currently DH is not terrible as it was back then, but it's still just mediocre and sees very little play. According to wingman, in raids DH has only .82% spec representation. That's lower than all other elite specs except for BS, WB(also guard!), and UNT. There are few, if any, reasons why groups should take a DH over other competing specs. There are specs out there that can do more damage, there are specs out there that have more utility, and there are specs out there that do both better than DH could ever hope to. But the solution is easy, DH is a damage orientated spec with mediocre damage, so all that really needs to be done is increase some modifiers. Some simple suggestions that people have brought up before:

 

* Increase the base damage bonus of Pure Of Sight

* Increase the damage bonus of Big Game Hunter

* Increase the damage of traps

 

Anything from a ~5-10% increase in damage would make DH a strong contender. Please consider buffing DH in the next patch, as we're going on 3 years now of Condi Guard dominance. Thanks.

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by FtoPScrub.5476

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

I'd love greatsword buff too. And to make longbow PvE stronger than sword/focus.

[zealex.9410]

Longbow is stronger than sword focus at afaik (unless smth changed this month). I woupd also love if they reverted the cd increase to lb2 and also went ahead with being able to move slowly while channeling it.

[Hogwarts Zebra.8597]

Yeah if DE can move while kneeling there's no reason for DH LB to have a bunch of self-roots attached

[Dadnir.5038]

On 1/9/2023 at 2:19 PM, FtoPScrub.5476 said:

But the solution is easy, DH is a damage orientated spec with mediocre damage, so all that really needs to be done is increase some modifiers.

I think you're oversimplifying the problematic, leading you to jump to an exceedingly simple conclusion. What does DH lack that the popular specs do have:

1. Meaningful support: In general boon supports are a lot more popular than a year ago just because the devs cut down the maximum allies targets to 5. You could say that the "pure dps" spots are even more expensive than they used to be.
2. Advertisement: If the reference sites don't provide a benchmark for a spec, people will usually (un)consciously discard this spec.
3. A "brain dead easy" reputation: One might have seen this as a disadvantage but it's no longer true nowadays. People will flock to builds that have the reputation to have good result for low efforts. (I'm not saying that DH is especially hard to play, just that he lack the reputation)
4. Low mobility/low health pool: Your competitors will usually be better in at least one of these area.

Now, what DH have that actually hurt it's popularity:

1. The bow: The DH longbow skill kit make it easy to hate. I don't think there is a single weapon skillset in GW2 which is worse QoL wise.
2. Pure of sight: I'm just looking at this trait and I am already frustrated to know that I won't reach my full potential because my gameplay will force me at melee range.

To fix DH:

• Weapon: Get rid of these self root effects on LB. Even in 2012 people hated self root effects.
• Traits: Increase piercing light's slow duration to 3s in PvE and make pure of sight grant a 10% increase of damage to slowed foes.
• Utility: Boon's on trap trigger need to be valuable for the group. Light's judgement's swiftness could be replaced by quickness in PvE only for example (it would be more in line with the gamemode).
• Virtues: Reduce the cast time of wing of resolve.

 

[PogO.5289]

18 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think you're oversimplifying the problematic, leading you to jump to an exceedingly simple conclusion. What does DH lack that the popular specs do have:

 

The only thing you mentioned that people care about are the self roots. DH is an otherwise loved spec that lacks damage, period. Not everything needs fundamental design changes and not everything needs to be a boon giving spec. You can already give quickness with FMW but nobody takes it over Maw, why would they sacrifice even more damage to take a terrible trap because it gives quickness now? Certainly haven't seen a single opinion that DH F2 having a long cast time is a serious issue that needs to be addressed, lol

 

Also, DH does not have a low health pool with the new dragon stats, which you can take in large amounts due to RI. Parts of your post are blatantly incorrect.

Edited January 27, 2023 by PogO.5289

[Asum.4960]

I do think DH is greatly underrated these days, it's actually a pretty solid DPS. 

It has exceptional burst, great mobility, great cleave, decent CC, decent ranged DPS and decent overall DPS. 

Longbow is actually far better these days too, it's main downside being the AA, as well as Hunter's Ward being too movement skill cancel prone for my liking. 

 

If True Shot went back down to a 4s CD to cover the lacking AA more and maybe Symbol of Energy went down to 10s CD (as well as maybe a tiny speed up on Hunter's Ward), DH would be pretty much set. 

 

Although Heavy Light being the same, if not more, overall DPS than Big Game Hunter, except with less steps, is a bit odd as two competing Strike Damage GM's, but anything more than a 5% increase to BGH would probably be overkill.

That said, I do think Heavy Light is more enjoyable to play with - but ultimately Anet should probably decide on one Strike Damage GM, lean into that, and rework the other (and BGH is probably the more "iconic" here for DH).

[Gehenna.3625]

10 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

I do think DH is greatly underrated these days, it's actually a pretty solid DPS. 

Which game mode are you talking about?

10 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

It has exceptional burst, great mobility, great cleave, decent CC, decent ranged DPS and decent overall DPS. 

Great mobility? You can get a 33% movement speed boost if you slot Soaring Devastation (which only applies when Wings of Resolve is not on CD) and using Wings of Resolve which allows you to cover some distance can be interrupted mid-use, so it's not even a port. And skill 2 requires you to stand still so that's bad for mobility. And if you include Symbol of Blades from the sword, which is a port, it's only range 600, so it's useful but not that useful when it comes to mobility. Especially when chasing down enemies who have 1200 ports or shawdowstepping or have stealth with superspeed.

So please tell me, why you think DH has great mobility? Because I'd like to be able to keep up with thieves and mesmers in WvW who really do have great mobility.

10 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Longbow is actually far better these days too, it's main downside being the AA, as well as Hunter's Ward being too movement skill cancel prone for my liking. 

So you mention two downsides but no upsides. You really should explain more to support your statements. They're just empty statements without any indication of why you make such statements.

And don't forget that in WvW/PvP True shot also has a CD of 8 seconds instead of 6 which is really bad for the rotation and the bow skills 3 and 5 are nerfed into the ground when it comes to DPS, they barely do any damage in WvW (which I play).

Which is why I asked which game mode you're talking about, because I get the feeling that you're only talking PvE.

I mean, I do use a DH in WvW because of the utility and sort of all-roundedness but when it comes to DPS I see that my DPS can do a decent amount of damage but not enough to be dangerous. I have no followthrough and the DH is far too dependent on enemies standing still. I mean in WvW against players Hunter's Ward is a joke because people know that they have time to dodge roll out of it or cast stability. It works fine against NPC's but not against players. 

Compare the big damage skill True Shot to the Ranger's Rapid Fire. You can even make longbow skills pierce and have reduced CDs. So why did True Shot have to be nerfed to an 8 second CD to begin with? I must be missing something, so I'll give you the opportunity to fill me in.

[Asum.4960]

3 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Which game mode are you talking about?

Sorry for the confusion - yes, I was talking about instanced PvE endgame.

With the OP talking about the Wingman representation of DH in Raids and a conversation focus on DPS, I thought PvE as thread subject a given.

[Gehenna.3625]

5 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Sorry for the confusion - yes, I was talking about instanced PvE endgame.

With the OP talking about the Wingman representation of DH in Raids and a conversation focus on DPS, I thought PvE as thread subject a given.

I do apologize. I was flipping back and forth between the guardian forum and the wvw forum.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On 1/28/2023 at 8:01 AM, Gehenna.3625 said:

Which game mode are you talking about?

Great mobility? You can get a 33% movement speed boost if you slot Soaring Devastation (which only applies when Wings of Resolve is not on CD) and using Wings of Resolve which allows you to cover some distance can be interrupted mid-use, so it's not even a port. And skill 2 requires you to stand still so that's bad for mobility. And if you include Symbol of Blades from the sword, which is a port, it's only range 600, so it's useful but not that useful when it comes to mobility. Especially when chasing down enemies who have 1200 ports or shawdowstepping or have stealth with superspeed.

So please tell me, why you think DH has great mobility? Because I'd like to be able to keep up with thieves and mesmers in WvW who really do have great mobility.

So you mention two downsides but no upsides. You really should explain more to support your statements. They're just empty statements without any indication of why you make such statements.

And don't forget that in WvW/PvP True shot also has a CD of 8 seconds instead of 6 which is really bad for the rotation and the bow skills 3 and 5 are nerfed into the ground when it comes to DPS, they barely do any damage in WvW (which I play).

Which is why I asked which game mode you're talking about, because I get the feeling that you're only talking PvE.

I mean, I do use a DH in WvW because of the utility and sort of all-roundedness but when it comes to DPS I see that my DPS can do a decent amount of damage but not enough to be dangerous. I have no followthrough and the DH is far too dependent on enemies standing still. I mean in WvW against players Hunter's Ward is a joke because people know that they have time to dodge roll out of it or cast stability. It works fine against NPC's but not against players. 

Compare the big damage skill True Shot to the Ranger's Rapid Fire. You can even make longbow skills pierce and have reduced CDs. So why did True Shot have to be nerfed to an 8 second CD to begin with? I must be missing something, so I'll give you the opportunity to fill me in.

I really wanted to use LB DH in WVW too, cuz ranged, but I just couldn't get it to work very well. Low mobility and self roots make it dangerous to play against melee, and other ranged specs tend to outperform it. Only time I had a decent experience was when I managed to use some core utility projectile hate and then follow up with a Spear-True Shot combo. Very niche.
WB is a better roamer, and FB is far better for zerg support. 🙁

[Gehenna.3625]

19 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I really wanted to use LB DH in WVW too, cuz ranged, but I just couldn't get it to work very well. Low mobility and self roots make it dangerous to play against melee, and other ranged specs tend to outperform it. Only time I had a decent experience was when I managed to use some core utility projectile hate and then follow up with a Spear-True Shot combo. Very niche.
WB is a better roamer, and FB is far better for zerg support. 🙁

I do use it as a roamer/scout and I like it a lot when capping objectives. I agree that FB support is better for zergs, though skill 1 and 2 have piercing and that can be useful for doing DPS in zergs. But I just don't like playing WB in spite of it being better for roaming. So yeah when it's 1 vs 1, I lose a lot more than I win but that could also be my skill level for PvP lol.

So it works for me in most cases but I do feel it's lacking in the DPS department and the rotations of both the Longbow and Sword/Focus are clunky at best. I would like it far more if I wouldn't have to depend so much on the AA which feels really lame especially against a single targer. 

There is another issue though. DH is very dependent on enemies staying in one place and doesn't deal with opponent mobility very well. DH is very dependent on stacking effects for damage. So skill 4 is a combo set up that skill 1 and 2 can finish. But how long is an enemy going to stay in that aoe? The reflex is to dodge or run out of any aoe. Burning an enemy to get a bonus to damage is also not very effective in WvW because players come with some condition removal and then where are you DPS-wise?

Still, in spite of all that, I just like playing it and as such I've gotten better at making the best out of it. I now use skill 4, not for damage but to chase enemies away from a certain spot (like downed people they want to finish off). So the utility is the main thing for me, but I really wish that I would be more dangerous to enemies. When I did my burst, they're generally still alive and I have to wait for some time before I can do that again because of CDs being too long.

Anyways, that's the last thing I'll say about WvW here. I'm sort of hijacking this thread which is written from a PvE pov after all. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On 1/30/2023 at 5:57 AM, Gehenna.3625 said:

I do use it as a roamer/scout and I like it a lot when capping objectives. I agree that FB support is better for zergs, though skill 1 and 2 have piercing and that can be useful for doing DPS in zergs. But I just don't like playing WB in spite of it being better for roaming. So yeah when it's 1 vs 1, I lose a lot more than I win but that could also be my skill level for PvP lol.

So it works for me in most cases but I do feel it's lacking in the DPS department and the rotations of both the Longbow and Sword/Focus are clunky at best. I would like it far more if I wouldn't have to depend so much on the AA which feels really lame especially against a single targer. 

There is another issue though. DH is very dependent on enemies staying in one place and doesn't deal with opponent mobility very well. DH is very dependent on stacking effects for damage. So skill 4 is a combo set up that skill 1 and 2 can finish. But how long is an enemy going to stay in that aoe? The reflex is to dodge or run out of any aoe. Burning an enemy to get a bonus to damage is also not very effective in WvW because players come with some condition removal and then where are you DPS-wise?

Still, in spite of all that, I just like playing it and as such I've gotten better at making the best out of it. I now use skill 4, not for damage but to chase enemies away from a certain spot (like downed people they want to finish off). So the utility is the main thing for me, but I really wish that I would be more dangerous to enemies. When I did my burst, they're generally still alive and I have to wait for some time before I can do that again because of CDs being too long.

Anyways, that's the last thing I'll say about WvW here. I'm sort of hijacking this thread which is written from a PvE pov after all. 

I mostly just can't the damage I want out of DH in wvw. Seems like so many coefficients are nerfed hard in that mode compared to ranger and deadeye. And wb just blasts burning, which is great until they cleanse. I like the survival tools tho.

[FtoPScrub.5476]

Once again, the buffs were woefully inadequate. See you in 3 months for our quad-annual .1 coefficient increase to a AA chain while FB randomly gets 2K DPS buffs. And they wonder why people are choosing condi guard over power 😆

Edited February 5, 2023 by FtoPScrub.5476

[MagicBot.1570]

9 hours ago, FtoPScrub.5476 said:

Once again, the buffs were woefully inadequate. See you in 3 months for our quad-annual .1 coefficient increase to a AA chain while FB randomly gets 2K DPS buffs. And they wonder why people are choosing condi guard over power 😆

Yup. Kind of a shame right now, it's still gonna be too low 😕