Ableism in Guild Wars 2

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, KeySpellsong.2569 said:

muting this now.

This is neither an airport, nor twitter.

[Heibi.4251]

15 minutes ago, KeySpellsong.2569 said:

So you are saying go the pay to win or pay to progress route?

 

I believe they are telling you you can buy with gold you earn in game to treats you need for the skyscale. I personally made mine so I could avoid the jumping puzzles. I'm able bodied but I also accepted help from other players in game. There is no shame in doing so. I believe that's what they are getting at from that angle. I have friends who have disabilities playing the game and me and my other friends help them when asked. So just know that there are ways to get help in game that are not pay to win.

[Veprovina.4876]

38 minutes ago, KeySpellsong.2569 said:

So I am a handicapped gamer, let's just get that out there now. I have tried to get help from the support staff with contacting the devs to try and make the game more accessible for gamers like myself. Things from making story instances combat less grueling to making things like unlocking the Skyscale more accessible. All to no avail, and my latest attempt to get help ended with support staff answering my concerns of ableism in the game design and community with ableist comments of their own. All I wanted was off forum help because I know that this will get me accused of being political when all I want is for the game to be more accessible. This game has a truly wonderful story and amazing set of well written characters, some of those wonderful characters are even disabled themselves. All I am asking is that the content be made more accessible, so that story can be enjoyed and so that things like the Skyscale are more accessible for all the gamers playing Guild Wars 2. Also maybe ask your staff not to address concerns of ableism with more ableism.

First off, calling something "ableist" is not doing any favors for your argument. 

You say you don't want to be accused of being political but "isms" are inherently political - just think of where you learned that word and who is using it for what purposes. It's political.

 

Sedondly, "ableism" comes off as an attack - and it's designed to do that. That doesn't promote healthy conversation, and expecting help after that is a bit misguided. There's other ways of communicating your point - which i'm not disputing - that will get you more favorable results.

 

With that out of the way...

 

Anet HAS been doing some improvements to accessiblity recently. As far back as the before last halloween - they added candy corn purchases of the Jumping puzzle achievement because that year they made the mandatory and a similar concern was raised. 

That addion was still in this year. 

 

They added mroe visible cursor options (that still need improvement but hey it's a step in the right direction).

 

Lastly, if you didn't come of so strong in your post, there's a lot of people who play this game with disabilites (some even heavily visually impaired). If you just asked for help, there would be tons of responses pointing you in the right direction instead of the comments you're getting now - which will just get this thread locked. 

 

Next time, ask fro help instead of this accusatory mindset you have.

 

There's good people here, you just have to adjust your attitude.

[Randulf.7614]

29 minutes ago, KeySpellsong.2569 said:

Again that is pay to win or pay to progress, if you are saying I have to pay more because of my handicap then you have missed the point of why I posted.

There is no paying. The treats are craftable. Hope that helps.

I’m all for more accessibility, but the skyscale already got that treatment. No pay to win, alternative ways to skip difficult content. They couldn’t really do much more there.

[hanabal lecter.2495]

Man the self victimizing here is crazy lmao.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, KeySpellsong.2569 said:

Not being entitled, just want things to be more accessible, but please attack me, not like I care really just wanted to post this here so that maybe the devs see it and do something to make the game more accessible, and I guess less expensive since everyone suggests I just spend money. Its whatever though, you all are just gonna pile on the "oh their being entitled" bus now. Which is fine and proves my point to the support staff that the forums are not a viable solution for suggesting things like accessiblity in the game.

What is the definition of entitled?  You seem to think that if you attach the word "accessible" to your request demand that anyone who denies you is "ableist".  Meanwhile you write off suggestions like bringing a friend to story instances (it's not only disabled people who do this, you know?) or using the built-in systems to bypass jumping puzzle requirements for the skyscale collection.

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by AliamRationem.5172

[Danikat.8537]

I think it would help a lot if you were more specific about what you need. I have dyslexia (which among other things means I read slower than most people), at least one GW2 player is blind and another cannot use one of their hands. All 3 of us are disabled but the accommodations we need are very different and what would help one person would be useless to another. (There are many other examples, but that's the first 3 real examples I thought of.) So just asking for 'accessibility' isn't likely to get you anywhere because even if someone at Anet agrees what they add or change may not help with your specific situation.

Having said that I disagree that the skyscale treats are 'pay to win' or 'pay to progress'. There's plenty of collections (including other parts of the skyscale collection) where crafting or buying something is part of the process, so I don't see why this should be any different. If you don't want to buy them you can craft your own, you could even make it a rule that you have to gather all the materials yourself so you've done the whole process without help.

But also this is a multiplayer game and it's designed to be played with other people, either with them right there fighting alongside you or by collaborating indirectly - like selling stuff you don't need to people who want it and using the gold to buy someone else's spare items. Every part of the game is designed to be played together, including the story (all story instances can be played in parties of up to 5). It may be possible for some people to do some things solo, but that doesn't mean everyone has to do it that way or that Anet intended them to do it solo.

Technically it's also possible to play with most of your equipment slots empty, and that's how the game starts you off, but that doesn't mean it's how it's intended to be played or that people who use equipment are cheating or doing it the 'cheap' way. In spite of what some gamers will tell you there's a lot of valid options other than the hardest path you can imagine.

[Parasite.5389]

in terms of making the Skyscale collection more accessable by negating the Jumping puzzle step, this was included with collection.

from its release you were able to purchase or CRAFT Extra Pungent Skyscale Treat, this item will allow you to skip all the jumping puzzles and world events for that step

Edited January 9, 2023 by Parasite.5389

[Razor.6392]

This thread is hilarious.

[Telgum.6071]

Calling everyone who disagrees with you ableist will get you nowhere. Game is already friendly enough for handicapped people, you are just asking for a path of roses.

Also what is wrong with asking for help? I've spent HOURS helping people that had 0 physical problems, if they can ask for help, why can't you?

Edited January 9, 2023 by Telgum.6071

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, KeySpellsong.2569 said:

Also quit telling handicapped gamers to just get help or let a friend or family member do the content, that is just more ableism.

Getting help from others in a Massively Multiplayer Online game (MMO) is objectively not ableism.

MMOs, by their name and definition, are multiplayer games. It's expected that you do things with other players.

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[roederich.2716]

This has ever been a difficult topic not only in GW2 but overal gaming.

I think Anet is selling the game as „fast action paced mmorpg“.

So in the first place it is clear what to expect to get when buying it. 
„Accessable“ it truly is. All you need to do is buy it.

Now for the content difficulty it can never be too easy. People will criticize the game for being too easy then and get bored.

I mean if there was an option one could click to get an special easy mode buff for the story that give more damage output and less incoming damage that would work maybe. But still some parts of the story prolly always require to jump or dodge at certain spots or so.

I would really recommend to join a community instead.

Like im sure if you join one of the many communities of this game and post on their discord „hey guys i work on the skyscale but can’t make the jumping puzzle because simply i got real life handicap“  you will be surprised how many mesmers suddenly are around you who can portal you through any jumping puzzle. This community has ever be known to be exactly there when this kind of help is needed and not let anyone behind.

best example has been the steam release. How many new players even complained to not want to be asked if help is needed all the time lol.

GW2 Central Hub is a discord which lists all kinds of available communities. Have a look at this and you will find communities for all aspects of the game. This linklist is large. You can reach it here http://gw2.link/hub

What one cannot achieve a team can.

[Luthan.5236]

It is not ableism. It is just you wanting to have made stuff easier - while using the term "ableism" as an excuse to push for unreasonable changes. Imo. (At least from reading the first replies in the thread ... it seems so. You won't gain friendly reactions while behaving like that.)

Ableism imo is: Discrimination (with the meaning of treating someone worse) because of a disability/handycap. ... WITHOUT (important) any good reason. Now the game has reasons. You can't make it accessible for everyone cause every person is different. (That on the other hand could make it too easy - and boring - for other people. And they can't just offer different content to each person. Everyone plays the same game.)

There have even been attempts to make certain stuff easier (For example: Halloween required the clocktower for an additional achievement ... where they added a way to get progress without having to do the clocktower.)

Suggesting to ask for help with the jumping puzzle is totally a valid reply.  I find it rude to say "Also quit telling handicapped gamers to just get help or let a friend or family member do the content, that is just more ableism."

especially when there is other hard content where players without handicap have trouble ... and sometimes like to get help. (Certain jumping puzzles. For the daily ones even mesmers tag up and help regularly. Or story achievements where the wiki even suggests workarounds where stuff can be a lot easier with a party member helping.)

I understand that is is mainly about the story + skyscyle (getting the basic stuff everyone has) - and not about making stuff that is supposed to stay hard easier (raids, ractals). But that is just how it works for a lot of others without handicap as well: Having to do the same stuff ... then maybe asking for help ... and then being able to complete it.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Luthan.5236

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, KeySpellsong.2569 said:

Also quit telling handicapped gamers to just get help or let a friend or family member do the content, that is just more ableism.

There are many kind of handicaps and each affect your activities differently.

As someone that have a few handicaps (Shoulder, back and feet) , I can tell you that usually our "kind" tend to adapt instead of asking other to adapt things to us. Be it jumping puzzles or gruelling fights, grouping is probably the first thing you should think of and do to solve your issue. I used to know someone heavily handicaped. Instead of crying over the difficulty, he used his ability to bring people together in order to organize zergs of players to go through various field bosses, meta event and jumping puzzle (In this context, I've ported whole zergs through every single vanilla jumping puzzle and even in areas that are very difficult to reach for "fun").

To me, this sentence of yours is a lack of respect to the handicaped players that actually make the effort to go beyond their handicap.

[Veprovina.4876]

3 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

skyscyle (getting the basic stuff everyone has)

Skyscale was never meant to be basic, it's a legendary mount. But as far as skyscale is concerned, i feel like there have been a lot of good implementations in how to get it so that people with disabilities can obtain it as well. Some of which have been validly suggested here and rudely ignored by the OP (who is not even reading this thread since page one anymore btw...). 

[Omega.6801]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Skyscale was never meant to be basic, it's a legendary mount. But as far as skyscale is concerned, i feel like there have been a lot of good implementations in how to get it so that people with disabilities can obtain it as well. Some of which have been validly suggested here and rudely ignored by the OP (who is not even reading this thread since page one anymore btw...). 

OP doesn't want help, they want free stuff. These """requests""" never go down well here.

[Gladiotor.7561]

This was amusing to read. Atleast i learned a word.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

I am ok with the idea that people with better skills are reward better than those with lower skills. I am also ok with those with handicaps to be exclude from some activities if it hurt society as a whole, for example, lumberjacks with no arms, nurses who can not read prescriptions because of severe dislexia, engineers with severe learning disabilities designing bridges. If your handicaps are so severe, playing the game might not be for you. The story can be experienced through youtube and twitch, similarly if I wanted to experience high level pvp, i can watch a streamer who is actually good at the pvp and not me.

Anet solar tried to address this problem, and he just made the game much worse with mechanist. And he got much ire from the community for doing this. 

Sorry you got dealt a bad hand of cards, but either you play them out the best you can or just fold them. Do not come begging to change the rules of the game because of that hand.

[Brave Mallyki.1563]

You seem to be confused as to what "pay-to-win" and "pay-to-progress" mean. It doesn't mean that you are using in-game currency. You are using in-game currency and items to acquire the item, not real-world currency to obtain them. Unless, you would rather swipe a card then spend time collecting the required materials to craft or farm the gold. That decision is on you and not the game forcing you to do so.

So, that "pay-to-win" and "pay-to-progress" argument is lost on a lot of people here, because GW2 is very much not a "pay-to-win" game.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Brave Mallyki.1563

[DexterousGecko.6328]

5 minutes ago, Brave Mallyki.1563 said:

So, that "pay-to-win" and "pay-to-progress" argument is lost on a lot of people here, because GW2 is very much not a "pay-to-win" game.

For many, if you can use real money to gain progress in-game (say spending real money to buy gold, which is basically THE main goal for 90% of players), that is considered p2w.

[Ultramex.1506]

Uh...huh...when is this gonna get blocked?

[Zebulous.2934]

Here we have an Op who wants the game to be more accessible, and yet Op refuses to say in which particular way the game is failing to be accessible.  Surely someone who is in difficulty would have ideas about what would make their own situation less difficult?  Op does not have any ideas or suggestions, just make the game more accessible.  When Op mentioned jumping puzzles or story instance combat: I got the impression that Op just wanted an option to skip that content, rather than make the content more accommodating to any specific disability.

If Op had a privacy concern they could have said that the issues were motor control issues, visual issues, forced perspective issues, ect.  We could have been given a category to work with, without ever needing to know a specific disability.
The total lack of specifics, and the confrontational writing style, causes me to suspect that Op is actually just an inexperienced social justice warrior.  I suspect that Op has no game related disabilities and that is why Op has no specific suggestions, regarding specific accommodation, for people who are actually at disadvantage. 
 

[Ashen.2907]

Sounds like the OP is engaging in disableism. Calling others names or the like for not spending money to cater to him. How much did the OP offer to pay ANet to redesign the game's existing content to meet his personal desires? How has he proposed compensating existing players for insisting that existing content be changed?

[Khisanth.2948]

4 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

Here we have an Op who wants the game to be more accessible, and yet Op refuses to say in which particular way the game is failing to be accessible.  Surely someone who is in difficulty would have ideas about what would make their own situation less difficult?  Op does not have any ideas or suggestions, just make the game more accessible.  When Op mentioned jumping puzzles or story instance combat: I got the impression that Op just wanted an option to skip that content, rather than make the content more accommodating to any specific disability.

If Op had a privacy concern they could have said that the issues were motor control issues, visual issues, forced perspective issues, ect.  We could have been given a category to work with, without ever needing to know a specific disability.
The total lack of specifics, and the confrontational writing style, causes me to suspect that Op is actually just an inexperienced social justice warrior.  I suspect that Op has no game related disabilities and that is why Op has no specific suggestions, regarding specific accommodation, for people who are actually at disadvantage. 
 

Inability to communicate is probably one of the most common disabilities.

[Veprovina.4876]

1 hour ago, Omega.6801 said:

OP doesn't want help, they want free stuff. These """requests""" never go down well here.

I know. I said as much in my post. Every time someone uses "isms" in their argument, it's 99% entitled behaviour and if you don't get on board your're an "ism". It's a cult, i swear... 

Usually when people ask for help here, they start with themselves - as in - what can i do to make my experience better. And they get tons of help. I've seen it happen. And the thread usually ends on a positive note, where the OP that asked for help, got it, and is now having a better time playing.

This thread?

Pure childish rage, entitlement and SO much victimising...