4th elite spec

[Yasai.3549]

12 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think 'old' is actually a requirement, just significant enough for their echo in the Mists to be a suitable power source. Joko and Scarlet are clearly good enough according to the fluff, it just seems that ArenaNet has decided that the PC wouldn't want a copy of their own adversary in their head. More broadly, I'd suspect that anyone present in GW2's timeframe is not going to be available to player revenants, but I suspect this is a matter of avoiding spoilers and 'use the hounds of Balthazar to fight the hounds of Balthazar' scenarios.

I don't think humans dominating the historical narrative means that legends have to keep being human. There are still plenty of nonhumans we do know about, plus the potential of introducing figures that are unknown to the players because they aren't part of the human-centric narrative.

The threshold of what it takes to be a legend does seem to be lower than what was described around the time HoT released. Which is fine, as long as they come up with unique concepts. However...

Hence I mentioned what exactly Anet considers "Legend material" in their bible. So far all we got to go off on are "Old and did alotta stuff" 

We do have many candidates for "doing alotta stuff" but they tend to be main conflict characters like Scarlet, Joko, Balthazar, Iberu if you wanna skip Joko, Dragon Champions like Ryland or Braham. 

As such, I don't really see any modern characters being used for Legend material, so if I were to pick, I'd go for Scarlet based on weapon sense because she'd most likely bring Rifle or Pistol. I mean, what's Joko gonna bring? Scepter or Focus? Not really symbolic of Joko like Staff of Joko but eh. 

[Kodama.6453]

15 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Sure, it's nice to have some specs link in to the new region, but like Renegade in PoF, I don't think they all need to. And if, for instance, ArenaNet were to make a ritualist-themed elite specialisation for, say, Necromancer, would it not be easier to just say that in the period between expansions, Canthan ritualists became more open to teaching their techniques to outsiders rather than coming up with some new local skillset that is basically ritualist with different assets and a different name?

I am not saying it is impossible to have elite specs not tied in lore to the respective region, I am saying I personally think it is better to do it that way personally.

I enjoy the specs to be themed around the region we visit, because it gives additional insight on the lore of that place. Having the specs disconnected from that place would be the same for me like visiting a new country like Japan and instead of trying their cuisine and get new experiences and taste new food you just go to McDonalds and eat the same stuff you already ate a dozen times at home.

Having a golemancer Asuran themed spec for mechanist instead of Jade tech, for example, would just be so insanely boring for me. I already dealt with Asuran golems in core Tyria for years. It's not new or exciting for me.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Hence I mentioned what exactly Anet considers "Legend material" in their bible. So far all we got to go off on are "Old and did alotta stuff" 

We do have many candidates for "doing alotta stuff" but they tend to be main conflict characters like Scarlet, Joko, Balthazar, Iberu if you wanna skip Joko, Dragon Champions like Ryland or Braham. 

As such, I don't really see any modern characters being used for Legend material, so if I were to pick, I'd go for Scarlet based on weapon sense because she'd most likely bring Rifle or Pistol. I mean, what's Joko gonna bring? Scepter or Focus? Not really symbolic of Joko like Staff of Joko but eh. 

From a lore perspective, I think we can rule out 'Old'. We know that Scarlet is a valid candidate, just one that the PC is (probably) never going to channel. Her primary impact was during the game. For Glint and Joko, one could at least argue that they've been doing things for a long time even if they only died recently (heck, we were able to briefly use Joko's legend while he was still, well, undead), but Scarlet isn't old by any stretch of the imagination.

If we're thinking 'candidate for a legend to be used by a PC', then I think there is a rule that it can't be someone the PC had previously met. But if, say, a future expansion has us arriving in a region that's in chaos because somebody important just died before we arrived, I could see that somebody being a legend.

 

7 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I am not saying it is impossible to have elite specs not tied in lore to the respective region, I am saying I personally think it is better to do it that way personally.

I enjoy the specs to be themed around the region we visit, because it gives additional insight on the lore of that place. Having the specs disconnected from that place would be the same for me like visiting a new country like Japan and instead of trying their cuisine and get new experiences and taste new food you just go to McDonalds and eat the same stuff you already ate a dozen times at home.

Having a golemancer Asuran themed spec for mechanist instead of Jade tech, for example, would just be so insanely boring for me. I already dealt with Asuran golems in core Tyria for years. It's not new or exciting for me.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think it holds up due to the simple observation that for the majority of elite specialisations, it's pretty obvious that they came up with the concept first and THEN came up with a justification for it to be linked to a region. Mechanist is obviously fairly well integrated, but holosmith? They just threw in a few lines about using Zephyrite crystals, and we didn't see another NPC holosmith until they made Gorrik and Ivan into holosmiths, neither of which have any particularly strong ties to Elona or the Zephyrites (the Aetherblades did steal some crystals, but they also stole asura holotech, and there's no direct reference to either using sun aspect crystals). Similar comments can be made about other PoF specs - I think the first time we see another NPC Mirage is in Cantha, which shows that 1) they aren't actually that closely tied with Elona, and 2) they don't need to claim that an elite is unique to an area for it to be common there. Both guardian elites were clearly conceived of before their respective expansions, and if anything it's a bit of an inconsistency that Cantha suddenly had an ancient order of guardians when the guardian profession started after travel was cut off, but now they're willing to teach it to outsiders when previously they wouldn't even teach it at Shing Jea?

Instead of trying to shoehorn every single elite spec into a new region, I think it would be better for them to have a handful or so where this really works well. In EoD, for instance, this would be the bladesworn, mechanist, catalyst (whose lore is basically another ancient order that we saw no trace of in GW1, which has now fallen out of favour which I guess explains why elementalists seem to be entirely replaced by ritualists in Cantha), and maybe a couple of others. The rest could then have other origins that develop other parts of the world, while for those that are local, they can put in the effort to make them really feel significant in the region.

It also keeps other options open. Many people want a norn or asura legend - personally, I'd love to see more nonhumanoid 'monsters' (that kraken armour would be much more tempting if I could channel Zhu Hanuku!), but I can see why people would want those, but under this policy that could only happen if they were to somehow make a norn or asura important to the new region. We've talked previously about existing technologies we'd like engineer to have access to, but under this policy that can only happen if they can somehow make that technology local to the region.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

Alright been thinking a bout on what we can see for a fourth elite spec;

 

Dagger - Legendary is Nika - The Shadow

The weapon focuses on poisons and torment, as expected, bringing abilities that are thief/assassin-esque in quality. Whether this is main or off hand becomes the question. The powers themselves focusing more on stealth and sneaking with area evasions as well with quickness and superspeed.

 

Scepter - Legendary is Faolain - The Trickster

(her dialog can even be nagging reminding the character of how they killed her or coming to terms with that and her eventual corruption by Mordremoth)

Her powers grant illusions and trickery to the Revenant, giving them abilities that mimic the mesmer in small fashions. While I won't say generate clones outright maybe a lighter mechanic that does similar things to shattering and maybe even teleportation powers and inflicting confusions.

 

Pistol - Legendary is Lord Pirate Dalvis the Dreaded - The Blackheart

(or similar figure in GW history)

Either main or off-hand would provide many status and controlling effects while the pirate skills will be focused befuddlement, confusions and diversion tactics all with a pirate theme.

 

Torch - Legendary is a Koda of some kind - The Guidance

This is more of a tanky/defense oriented legendary aimed at providing team wide defensive support and buffs with the torch primarily aimed at giving said buffs as in "lighting the way" type mentality. Maybe provides stability and aegis as well.

 

Rifle - Legendary is Forge Ironstrike - The Predator

(Yes, the one who killed Kalla)

This is legendary is meant for more ranged, power strikes from afar for hunters and sniper style of play with mechanics and legendary powers that aim to enhance and focus such style of play, some methods of stealth, quickness and super speed as well as well as traps.

 

Longbow - Legendary is a Wolf or Hound - The Hunter

(The legendary is a pet to a great hunter of the past maybe a norn, no not Eir. When conversations come out we see the ghostly image of the wolf/hound lurking around and doing some action that our character interprets)

The bow is a ranged power weapon that provides a lot of AoE and power strikes and designed to keep targets at ranged as needed. The legendary effects are based around a lot of CC effects and focus to grant team support in this fashion.

 

A wishful thinking legendary I would love is something like Reinhardt from Overwatch, but shield is already taken by glint and no idea how to implement them. A legendary who is wracked with guilt for failing to listen to others and maybe got many killed who is looking to amend his mistake. For those unaware I suggest watching the Reinhardt video from Overwatch, it's pretty emotional and brings a new meaning when you hear him shout "I will be your shield!" A legendary like that for defensive purposes.

Edited January 27 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 1/25/2023 at 1:29 PM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Alright been thinking a bout on what we can see for a fourth elite spec;

 

Dagger - Legendary is Nika - The Shadow

The weapon focuses on poisons and torment, as expected, bringing abilities that are thief/assassin-esque in quality. Whether this is main or off hand becomes the question. The powers themselves focusing more on stealth and sneaking with area evasions as well with quickness and superspeed.

 

Scepter - Legendary is Faolain - The Trickster

(her dialog can even be nagging reminding the character of how they killed her or coming to terms with that and her eventual corruption by Mordremoth)

Her powers grant illusions and trickery to the Revenant, giving them abilities that mimic the mesmer in small fashions. While I won't say generate clones outright maybe a lighter mechanic that does similar things to shattering and maybe even teleportation powers and inflicting confusions.

These are super unlikely to happen. We already have two Shiro related legend options so Nika is out. If they did Nika soon Revenant is just going to be 1/3rd focused on Shiro's story, which is not so important that it needs 3 legends dedicated to it.

And Faolain is an antagonist of the PC during GW2. I doubt we'll ever get legends that are from GW2 specifically, especially adversaries. Also Scepter or Focus have much better legend options than boring Faolain. Vizier Khilbron for example, who is far, far more impactful than the whiny, impulsive Nightmare Court Queen

Edited January 28 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Yasai.3549]

7 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

These are super unlikely to happen. We already have two Shiro related legend options so Nika is out. If they did Nika soon Revenant is just going to be 1/3rd focused on Shiro's story, which is not so important that it needs 3 legends dedicated to it.

And Faolain is an antagonist of the PC during GW2. I doubt we'll ever get legends that are from GW2 specifically, especially adversaries. Also Scepter or Focus have much better legend options than boring Faolain. Vizier Khilbron for example, who is far, far more impactful than the whiny, impulsive Nightmare Court Queen

3 Legendary figures surrounding the whole Shiro incident is already 2 too many even if 2 of them were merged into one Legend. 

And as I have mentioned, it really depends on what Anet considers criteria for Legends. Faolain doesn't even come close in accomplishment as an antagonist compared to other modern candidates in scale. She kinda just rode the Mordremoth ride after it left the station, but she was never a huge deal even then. If Faolain does become a Legend, I demand Anet give us Legendary Quaggan. Non negotiable. 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Oola or Svanir could be neat. 

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

These are super unlikely to happen. We already have two Shiro related legend options so Nika is out. If they did Nika soon Revenant is just going to be 1/3rd focused on Shiro's story, which is not so important that it needs 3 legends dedicated to it.

At the very least, it would be nice to give Viktor and Archemorus some significant achievements that came before Shiro, so they actually have their own stories rather than being part of Shiro's.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

6 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

These are super unlikely to happen. We already have two Shiro related legend options so Nika is out. If they did Nika soon Revenant is just going to be 1/3rd focused on Shiro's story, which is not so important that it needs 3 legends dedicated to it.

And Faolain is an antagonist of the PC during GW2. I doubt we'll ever get legends that are from GW2 specifically, especially adversaries. Also Scepter or Focus have much better legend options than boring Faolain. Vizier Khilbron for example, who is far, far more impactful than the whiny, impulsive Nightmare Court Queen

I think the Jade Winds event is a bit more important than you give it.

 

And going by what I am reading of Vizier Khilbourn, he was utterly destroyed, I mean even his spirit was destroyed later on. And I don't know how it works in Guild Wars lore anyways, but I think that becoming a lich would irrevocably remove you as an option to be a legend from the mists either way. Just like we will not see Joko as a legend since not only was he a lich, his essence was completely devoured by Aurene.

 

I chose Faolain as an attempt to find someone out of the Sylvari to be a legend which is hard to look for someone since the race is now what 35 years old in GW2 lore. And considering she killed Eir, I wouldn't call that unimportant even my own misgivings about the character of Eir to begin with. Never mind, much akin to the rest of core story of GW2, it has a whole lot of telling and very little showing going on which is a major problem with pre HoT GW2 story in a nutshell. This can be a method to flesh that out some, and was just aiming at a suggestion to offer up more options and things to do with legendary powers.

[Fueki.4753]

43 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

And going by what I am reading of Vizier Khilbourn, he was utterly destroyed, I mean even his spirit was destroyed later on. And I don't know how it works in Guild Wars lore anyways, but I think that becoming a lich would irrevocably remove you as an option to be a legend from the mists either way. Just like we will not see Joko as a legend since not only was he a lich, his essence was completely devoured by Aurene.

Revenants channel a memory of the Mists, which basically is an imprint of people's deeds and their impact on the world. Revenants do not channel people themselves. That why I think it's stupid that the Legends can make small talk to the player.

Khilbron's usage of the forbidden scrolls that caused Orr to sink will definitely have a lasting imprint on the Mists, whether his soul is somewhere in the Mists or not.

The same goes for Joko's tyranny in Elona.

 

Edited January 28 by Fueki.4753

[Elric.4713]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Revenants channel a memory of the Mists, which basically is an imprint of people's deeds and their impact on the world. Revenants do not channel people themselves. That why I think it's stupid that the Legends can make small talk to the player.

 

No idea why people keep repeating this when it's not true, as can be read in the Hidden Arcana blog post: "A revenant’s legends are not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient, with opinions and personalities of their own."

[draxynnic.3719]

Joko was explicitly available as a revenant legend while Joko was still, well, not dead. Revenant PCs channel his legend as a once-off in Season 4, but vow never to do it again.

As people have said, revenant legends are not the actual spirit of the individual concerned (if Khilbron's spirit had been destroyed altogether, for instance, Shiro's probably has as well, since both ultimately had the same fate, and yet we can channel Shiro). I tend to think of it as there being a fractal somewhere that is an echo of the legend and their deeds. The legend is sentient and able to communicate, in the same manner that entities in fractals are sentient and able to communicate, but they're not really able to learn and undergo character growth unless the original is still active somewhere.

[Yasai.3549]

7 hours ago, Elric.4713 said:

No idea why people keep repeating this when it's not true, as can be read in the Hidden Arcana blog post: "A revenant’s legends are not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient, with opinions and personalities of their own."

I mean why can't they be both echoes and sentient? The events of FotM pretty much confirm that both Dessa and Arkk are echoes doomed to repeat their actions in the Fractal loop despite them being fully sentient and able to react to the player's actions. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

16 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

3 Legendary figures surrounding the whole Shiro incident is already 2 too many even if 2 of them were merged into one Legend.

Agreed, I would have preferred another Canthan legend

10 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

At the very least, it would be nice to give Viktor and Archemorus some significant achievements that came before Shiro, so they actually have their own stories rather than being part of Shiro's.

Agree, the lore on them is sparse outside of the Shiro aspect. It would have been a perfect time to flesh them out further

 

9 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I think the Jade Winds event is a bit more important than you give it.

The Jade Winds IS super important, but it's not important enough to devote another legend to on top of the existing 3

 

9 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

And going by what I am reading of Vizier Khilbourn, he was utterly destroyed, I mean even his spirit was destroyed later on. And I don't know how it works in Guild Wars lore anyways, but I think that becoming a lich would irrevocably remove you as an option to be a legend from the mists either way. Just like we will not see Joko as a legend since not only was he a lich, his essence was completely devoured by Aurene.

Since we channel Joko while he is a lich and in the mists just the whole "being a lich" shouldn't rule out Khilbron immediately. Even if for some reason it does, it's unclear exactly when he becomes one. His biggest, most important event (the Cataclysm) probably occurs when he's still a human. And as others have said Revenants channel echoes, so it's not really an issue if the "spirit is fully destroyed or not" provided the echoes still exist in the mists (which they should)

 

10 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I chose Faolain as an attempt to find someone out of the Sylvari to be a legend which is hard to look for someone since the race is now what 35 years old in GW2 lore. And considering she killed Eir, I wouldn't call that unimportant even my own misgivings about the character of Eir to begin with. Never mind, much akin to the rest of core story of GW2, it has a whole lot of telling and very little showing going on which is a major problem with pre HoT GW2 story in a nutshell. This can be a method to flesh that out some, and was just aiming at a suggestion to offer up more options and things to do with legendary powers.

While we don't specifically have a sylvari legend, we do have sylvari representation in the form of Ventari. I also am of the mind that we don't necessarily need specific representation for each playable race and I would much rather see iconic characters (like Khilbron, Svanir) or weird/interesting options (like Kanaxai, Zhu Hanuku, etc.) with unique ideas rather than shoehorned playable race representation.

 

Also I don't think killing Eir is particularly important in the scheme of things, especially when compared to every other legend we currently have access to. Faolain is just too unimportant to become a legend

[Fueki.4753]

11 hours ago, Elric.4713 said:

No idea why people keep repeating this when it's not true, as can be read in the Hidden Arcana blog post: "A revenant’s legends are not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient, with opinions and personalities of their own."

I don't see how it's not true.

It's explicitly stated that Revenants channel echoes of "historical figurines". "Historical figurine" doesn't equal person (even if it happens to be sentient in GW2).

Let's take a real life example: Napoleon isn't a person anymore, but he still remains a historical figurine. We can learn from history books how he lived and what kind of things he did in the military, but we don't know who he actually was as a person.

In similar veins, Revenants channel the echoes of their most significant moments and deeds, rather than who they were as people.

If we were to channel them as people, we would also channel parts that were insignificant to the world:

We would channel parts of Ventari before he left his fellow centaurs. We would channel parts of Shiro before he betrayed and killed his lord. We would channel parts of Mallyx before he became the mightiest of Margonites. We would channel parts of Kalla before she actively rebelled. Mai Trin would channel parts of Scarlet when she still was Ceara.

But we don't channel any of these. We only channel the significant parts of what they were and did. A person is more than just what's recorded in books (or in the Mists in case of Revenants).

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

While we don't specifically have a sylvari legend, we do have sylvari representation in the form of Ventari. I also am of the mind that we don't necessarily need specific representation for each playable race and I would much rather see iconic characters (like Khilbron, Svanir) or weird/interesting options (like Kanaxai, Zhu Hanuku, etc.) with unique ideas rather than shoehorned playable race representation.

Yeah, I tend to think of Ventari as already being the sylvari representation. There's a reason his legend abilities are all centred on the Tablet - the thing that makes him significant enough to be a legend was the impact his teachings and the Tablet would have on the Pale Tree and therefore the sylvari. If it wasn't for the fact that, unknown to Ventari, the tree he tended happened to be a sapient (albeit, at that time, uncommunicative) tree that would later birth a race of humanoid plants, I don't think Ventari would have been a legend at all.

7 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

 

Also I don't think killing Eir is particularly important in the scheme of things, especially when compared to every other legend we currently have access to. Faolain is just too unimportant to become a legend

If the defining achievement of Character A is that they killed Character B, B is the legend, not A. Which is one of the reasons I support Svanir as a legend over Jora. (I think I described the others earlier in this thread...)

One could argue that founding the Nightmare Court is somewhat significant, but I'm sceptical. The Court is basically a reaction to Ventari, who's the real legendary figure, and seems to have largely ended up as a relatively minor annoyance. And even then, it seems to be shifting into something substantially more benign under Chrysanthea. The way things are going, I'm sceptical that the Court is ever going to be something impactful enough that founding it is enough to achieve legendary status. 

Edited January 29 by draxynnic.3719

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

One could argue that founding the Nightmare Court is somewhat significant, but I'm sceptical.

The Nightmare Court wasn't even founded by Faolain, but by Cadeyrn.

She just usurped his position as the leader.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The Nightmare Court wasn't even founded by Faolain, but by Cadeyrn.

She just usurped his position as the leader.

That was the public story, but from some of the late Season 2 material it does look as if Faolain was involved from the beginning and possibly manipulated him into it. I suspect she let him be the leader to begin with so she could retain plausible deniability with the other Firstborn, but once that plausible deniability was gone, she assumed direct control.

Either way, though, whether you give credit to Faolain or Cadeyrne, I don't think the Nightmare Court is significant enough that founding it grants legendary status. 

[Yasai.3549]

12 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The Nightmare Court wasn't even founded by Faolain, but by Cadeyrn.

She just usurped his position as the leader.

Nightmare Court isn't even that big of a deal. They were mostly PLANT BUT EVIL PLANT.

 

Inquest are arguably a bigger deal and bigger threat since they caused multiple genocides across continents.

[Uete.3805]

On 1/25/2023 at 10:29 PM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Alright been thinking a bout on what we can see for a fourth elite spec;

Kudos for such a list! It's quite inspiring seeing what other people would like to see as a 4th rev spec. I've been thinking on what type of e-spec could work with current design and lore, so here's my own list of funzies.

The Seer: Revenants who've conquered the future timelines written in the mists and ally themselves with the Legendary Genius Snaff in order to comprehend future weaponry, rift jumping and mind control.

• Weapon: MH Pistol
• Legend: Legendary Genius Snaff, based on controlling and mobility effects
• New Mechanic: You loose your ability to weapon swap and F2-F4 become kits (F2 and F3 would replace your offhand weapon (or 4th and 5th skills) while F4 would replace all your weapon skills). They would be selected based on your traits, with F2 being gadgets (such as a Portal device), F3 off-hand weapons (like another Pistol or an Iron fist) and F4 2-handed weapons (like a Blaster or a double laser Scythe).

The Havroun: Revenants who've studied along the Norn to channel the powers of the Spirits of the Wild. They've honed their channeling prowess to the point where their bodies can be possessed by their channeled legend, allowing them to become their legend, just like a Norn becomes the bear.

• Weapon: MH Axe
• Legend: Havrouns earn access to 2 unique legendary siblings
  • Legendary Nornbear Svanir, based on chilling, torment and boon corruption
  • Legendary Huntress Jora, based on burning, quickness and condition conversion into boons
• New Mechanic: After 10 sec delay your F2 allows you to become your legend (For instance: "Become the Demon" or "Become the Nornbear"). You enter an avatar of your legend changing your physical form and skills, losing access to your utility skills, and gaining 100 energy. Your energy depletes constantly (-10 pips), however. Once you reach 0 energy (or change legend) you are freed from your legend's posession. On top of that, each of their traits would represent a blessing from the spirits of the wild (for instance minor GM would be Blessing of the Bear, with the major GMs representing the Wolf, Raven and Snow Leopard).

The Puppeteer: The mists are a dark place and sometimes revenants look where no one should. There are ripples on the mists that can break your mind if you are not careful, else you'll end up being someone else's puppet (I know this one's controversial, but it also could be fun, so here we go xD)

• Weapon: Rifle
• Legend: Legendary Puppetmaster Scarlet, changes results based on your active Threads (basically glyphs).
• New Mechanic: On one hand you gain access to Thread skills (F2: Molten Thread, F3: Aether Thread, F4: Toxic Thread, F5: Watchwork Thread) that allow you to empower your wepon skills (specially your rifle) and you Legendary Puppetmaster skills. Each Thread skill costs energy when activated and you gain 5 rounds of that type of thread that get consumed by the next (energy-consuming) abilities you use. Each thread could add a condition and/or boon to your abilities baseline, while modifying Rifle and Puppetmaster abilities further. The other change is that your elite skills summon a puppet minion for 10 seconds based on your legend. The legendary Puppetmaster elite skills summons a minion per each type of thread you are currently holding, consuming it.

The Ritualist (or The Medium): (Disclaimer: I know that this ship has possibly sailed after EoD and that maybe it makes more sense for a Necro to become the Ritualist, but I can still dream ok?) The Ritualists used to bind their spirits with dark rituals, but the revenant's methods are pretty different. By channeling the mistborn entity known as Razah, rather than binding human spirits, the Ritualist serves as a conduit for those mist spirits that want to keep fighting even after death.

• Weapon: Scepter (ranged, with lightning effects)
• Legend: Legendary Mistborn Razah, spawns damaging and supportive spirits at your location. Spirits work like Ranger spirits but you may summon more than one of the same type and they persist even when you change legends, although you can support only a maximum of 5 spirits in total. Your elite spirit changes based on your other chosen legend, as a callback to Razah's ability to change profession as well as giving it more sinergy with your other legend.
• New Mechanic: Urns that drain your energy when activated, buffing you or your allies. You can only have one activated at any time. Your F2 and F3 allow you to channel the power of an urn based on your legend (For instance, Shiro could get "Swift was Nika", Mallyx could get "Blind was Kormir", Ventari could get "Sorrowful was Ronan", etc.). Your F4 is a special urn based on your GM traits. F5 is a special skill called Draw Spirit that allows you to gather all your spirits around you.

Sorry for the long text, but I've truly been inspired by this thread's conversations ^^

Edited January 30 by Uete.3805
Added a bit about Havroun traits

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

Interesting ideas.

 

I don't see a ritualist being our legend, however, since Revenants are ritualists. I mean that's what we do. While early revenant legends didn't do the summoning of urns and bringing down spirits as well, later ones like renegade and now the alliance are definitely mimicking that. The urn mechanic sounds a bit clunkier than just using Herald, good in theory but sounds like not good in implementation if I were to be honest. If anything I would say urns should act more like wells, but Renegade (aka Kalla) already does that so I am stumped on a suggestion for improving that.

 

I will not really ever be content with Scarlet being added. She's so one note and the plot that introduced her was too disjointed to actually make sense. But it's a problem of early GW2 plot of a lot of telling but not enough showing too. Her basically being a discount Harley Quinn makes me loathe her even more, if I were to be honest. I am not following the skills you gave it either, being truthful there as well. Empowering abilities with stackable shots sounds like it can be a bit on the broken side depending on exactly what they are suppose to do.

 

The Havroun interests me the most with the dual nature. Have to say Vindicator is my favorite because of that since I can swap around to being team supportive even if a bit on budget, if the need arises (and I have used Viktor quite a few times in bad PUG set ups too). My idea for this would one aspect (the bear) being tank oriented, standing their ground, giving aegis or stability, about grabbing the focus and team wide support buffs for protection. The other, maybe more focused on aggressive fighting, dodging and evasion. Maybe provide quickness and superspeed as part of the package and possibly evasion buffs too. I would use bear and wolf for this instance with the norn ideal, maybe even keep that ultimate form since I would love a werebeast character but I do not like the norn as a race in general.

 

Snaff, I have no opinion of. Having been an engineer main for the better part of a year and being rather, honestly, disgusted with how blatantly OP the mechanist is to this day (never mind the lengths people go to to try and protect the class) I can't see a discount engineer set up working without having the ability to choose your toolkit powers. What you have is a bit herky jerky, and what I would propose is something similar to how the mechanist works that your trait choices for this pick would determine the toolkit you get. Would I choose Snaff? I am mixed, I only chose Faolain to try and get Sylvari representation in my picks since the Sylvari are only 35 years old in game lore thus have had no time to actually develop any true legends (not to mention propogate the mesmer class abilities) but I don't see ANet actually using a GW2 era character as a legend. The legends have been past characters from as early as GW1, so I would expect characters from there and I doubt we will see anyone appear that has been totally anihilated in the lore, soul and all (aka Joko and Balthazar).

Edited January 30 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Uete.3805]

17 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Interesting ideas.

 

I don't see a ritualist being our legend, however, since Revenants are ritualists. I mean that's what we do. While early revenant legends didn't do the summoning of urns and bringing down spirits as well, later ones like renegade and now the alliance are definitely mimicking that. The urn mechanic sounds a bit clunkier than just using Herald, good in theory but sounds like not good in implementation if I were to be honest. If anything I would say urns should act more like wells, but Renegade (aka Kalla) already does that so I am stumped on a suggestion for improving that.

 

I will not really ever be content with Scarlet being added. She's so one note and the plot that introduced her was too disjointed to actually make sense. But it's a problem of early GW2 plot of a lot of telling but not enough showing too. Her basically being a discount Harley Quinn makes me loathe her even more, if I were to be honest. I am not following the skills you gave it either, being truthful there as well. Empowering abilities with stackable shots sounds like it can be a bit on the broken side depending on exactly what they are suppose to do.

 

The Havroun interests me the most with the dual nature. Have to say Vindicator is my favorite because of that since I can swap around to being team supportive even if a bit on budget, if the need arises (and I have used Viktor quite a few times in bad PUG set ups too). My idea for this would one aspect (the bear) being tank oriented, standing their ground, giving aegis or stability, about grabbing the focus and team wide support buffs for protection. The other, maybe more focused on aggressive fighting, dodging and evasion. Maybe provide quickness and superspeed as part of the package and possibly evasion buffs too. I would use bear and wolf for this instance with the norn ideal, maybe even keep that ultimate form since I would love a werebeast character but I do not like the norn as a race in general.

 

Snaff, I have no opinion of. Having been an engineer main for the better part of a year and being rather, honestly, disgusted with how blatantly OP the mechanist is to this day (never mind the lengths people go to to try and protect the class) I can't see a discount engineer set up working without having the ability to choose your toolkit powers. What you have is a bit herky jerky, and what I would propose is something similar to how the mechanist works that your trait choices for this pick would determine the toolkit you get. Would I choose Snaff? I am mixed, I only chose Faolain to try and get Sylvari representation in my picks since the Sylvari are only 35 years old in game lore thus have had no time to actually develop any true legends (not to mention propogate the mesmer class abilities) but I don't see ANet actually using a GW2 era character as a legend. The legends have been past characters from as early as GW1, so I would expect characters from there and I doubt we will see anyone appear that has been totally anihilated in the lore, soul and all (aka Joko and Balthazar).

I kind of disagree with Revenants being Ritualists (although they are undoubtedly a spiritual successor *pun not intended of sorts). The ritualist was quite darker, which is why I'd be ok with them repurposing its aesthetics and spirits (mechanically speaking) as a Medium e-spec.

Scarlet's abilities, as well as most of the abilities I proposed, are left open on purpose, since I didn't want to go too deep into what they'd do. They could be broken, but that's were balancing energy around them could also avoid making them op. I initially envisioned them with set roles (Molten would be more condi-oriented, Aether would increase CC effectiveness, Toxic would provide life-steal and Watchwork would focus on strike damage), but I could see GM traits allowing them to also share boons or provide more condis.

I'm glad you liked the Havroun! I could see the legends focusing more on tanking/control (Svanir) vs. evasive/boons (Jora) as you proposed. I'm biased towards condis so that's why I focused on ice vs. fire, but your ideas sound pretty cool as well.

Finally, I think Snaff is one of those contemporary characters that were never a real part of the game, but more of the lore behind it. He kind of ressonates better with me on an emotional level than, say, Vekk would (although Vekk was another gw1 option I entertained). Vekk founding the Inquest kind of gives him points, but I'm unsure it gives him legendary points. On the other hand, Snaff managed to mind-control an elder dragon (a tormented and mad one too), almost killed said elder dragon with a handful of allies, and he inspired two very talented and inventive asura (Zojja and Kudu), so I thought it'd work for a high-tech psychic hybrid based on the future of the mists. And yeah, engi was my 2nd character and I love love love playing with kits, so that's how the Seer idea was born.

Edited January 31 by Uete.3805

[Oceanox.4217]

After seeing the vindicator disaster, I don't expect to see a better elite in the future 😔

[soul.9651]

On 2/6/2023 at 5:55 AM, Oceanox.4217 said:

After seeing the vindicator disaster, I don't expect to see a better elite in the future 😔

Oooooor they cant get any lower and the next spec will be awsome copium

[draxynnic.3719]

I have some cautious optimism, since a future expansion will likely involve going into an unknown area. So they'll either need to drop the 'elite spec must be related to the region' idea, opening up all of the remaining legend candidates in Tyrian history, or come up with something new, which can be created with gameplay in mind rather than fitting gameplay to an established figure.