Make Condi Holo Great Again

[Sensations.9507]

Really love core and Holo condi builds on engineer.  All condi builds have been taken over by mechanist which I know this is just my opinion, but I cannot stand to play mech.  What happened to condi holo?  Why can it not rise back up to greatness? (I have been playing my ranger and rev for the last year or so.... but really want to break out my engi boi again.)  Honestly condi mech isnt really that good either.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Sensations.9507

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Holosmith isnt exactly a condi spec either. At the very least, Condi mech has some proper condi skill. On Holosmith pretty much all skill are aimed at power build. Although it is fun to play Celestial Holosmith with flamethrower

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

Condi mech isn't that good? Oy vey.

[Duglaive.5236]

8 hours ago, Sensations.9507 said:

  Honestly condi mech isnt really that good either.

Condi mech is fine, other than the fact it's not fun to play. Imo anyway. 

As to the initial point, I agree with Alcatraznc; though I remember a pistol/x (he used shield or pistol depending on match-up) condi holo who was very solid a year or so ago. So it may still be viable for a good player to make it work.

[Kodama.6453]

Make Crystal Configuration: Storm apply bleeding on photon forge auto attack. They become explosives so you can use them with shrapnel, but since this just triggers to 33%, it is pretty unreliable.

The only photon forge skill which applies any condition is photon blitz, I think we need at least a tiny bit more condi from photon forge to make it desirable for condi builds. And I don't think CS: Storm is actually used much with it just making the attacks ranged.

Also give Thermal Release Valve more burning in PvE.

[Kuma.1503]

21 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Make Crystal Configuration: Storm apply bleeding on photon forge auto attack. They become explosives so you can use them with shrapnel, but since this just triggers to 33%, it is pretty unreliable.

The only photon forge skill which applies any condition is photon blitz, I think we need at least a tiny bit more condi from photon forge to make it desirable for condi builds. And I don't think CS: Storm is actually used much with it just making the attacks ranged.

Also give Thermal Release Valve more burning in PvE.

Y'know... what if we took your idea a step further and gave CC:S heat tiers. 

0-50 heat - 1 second of bleed per auto

50-100 heat - 3 seconds of bleed per auto

100-150 heat 3 seconds of bleeding and 3 seconds of burning per auto.

 

Specific numbers not important, but something along those lines. 

 

[Atmaweapon.7345]

All Photon Forge abilities should inflict burning.

Sword attack chain and Radiant Arc should inflict burning.

Laser's Edge should apply outside of Photon Forge and also affect burning (Engineer currently doesn't have any trait that buffs the damage of specific conditions, only duration.)

 

I want Holo to have a specific condition niche in Burning, similar to how Mechanist can access engi's generic kit piano condi build while also having a unique one that focuses almost entirely on Confusion stacking. This means an entirely different build pattern (Grieving set with Burning runes to hit 100% burning with no expertise) and the ability to slot in Rocket Boots as utility without losing damage.

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Atmaweapon.7345

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Y'know... what if we took your idea a step further and gave CC:S heat tiers. 

0-50 heat - 1 second of bleed per auto

50-100 heat - 3 seconds of bleed per auto

100-150 heat 3 seconds of bleeding and 3 seconds of burning per auto.

 

Specific numbers not important, but something along those lines. 

 

I appreciate the idea, but I am not sure if we should make ECSU have even more effects than it already has. I would prefer to bring out the potential of the other 2 grandmaster traits more.

[Uete.3805]

Yeah, I'd say the top master and GM traits could be buffed to be more condi oriented. I love condi engy but the best (and only?) option rn is the Mecha, so that's what I'm rolling with.

[Campioneri.7601]

What are y'all on about, condi holo does 36k dps before confusion. Just got buffed slightly too with the pistol 2 casttime reduction. Could it be better? Yeah, it's pretty high effort and could use a minor buff to damage. But it's quite good already. 

 

[Sensations.9507]

On 2/3/2023 at 3:54 PM, Campioneri.7601 said:

What are y'all on about, condi holo does 36k dps before confusion. Just got buffed slightly too with the pistol 2 casttime reduction. Could it be better? Yeah, it's pretty high effort and could use a minor buff to damage. But it's quite good already. 

 

This is not how it performs in actual fights.  Condi Reaper has a 39.5k benchmark.... It doesnt get posted on any meta site because that dps is not actually possible outside of the dummy.

 

Holosmith is not ok, if it was really doing high damage in raids you would see it on any of the leaderboards/meta/snowcrows.

 

Boon support dps classes do more damage than condi holo does....  Holosmith is like weaver/deadeye/dragonhunter/soulbeast/virt ALLL it does is damage and gives none of the main core group dps boons.  If it isnt doing the damage that classes like deadeye and weaver are doing then it is failing terribly.  In real fights condi holo is doing 34-35k benchmark potential.  Which is woefully behind its peers like both weaver specs doing 40-41k, soulbeast at 39k, virt at 38-39k, and meme spec deadeye at around 40k(the 45k benchark is not reasonable just like the benchmark shown in the poor example video you posted is not a true example.)

 

Some classes perform how they bench.  Condi holo does not.

 

Another thing you completely ignore is that Mech which can do every role in the game besides quickness boon support does more damage than a pure dps spec holosmith... Figure that one out for us.  Mech can heal/boon support/dps....  Please form a complete argument instead of pulling a single benchmark video out of context.  If 36k was actually possible in fights Snowcrows would have it up there.  You cant just look at it in a vacuum you have to look at what its up against.  What are the other pure dps specs doing?  Other specs are hurting just like holo, for example dragonhunter and reaper were doing very badly. Both of them are getting back to back buffs to get them up to 38-40k dps.  I am pointing out that condi holo even if it could hit its supposed benchmark of 36k is still 10%+ behind with almost no support outside of vuln and a bit of might.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Sensations.9507

[ThunderX.6591]

Condi Mecha have the "piano build" as the Ele spec, but do less damage then Ele spec, so, not the best and most usefull thing to play if you want the best dps, that is the problem at the base of the spec.

And Holo is a Power dps class that depend heavily on the time in proton forge (the hard part in the rotation is get the heat under control when you fight a boss), don't understand why people set it as condi.......... at least take the hybrid way if you seriously want some condi in, and as power, Holo destroy Mecha, even scrapper destroy Mecha.... so, don't understand all those problem with Mecha, who is literally "nerf destroyed" every patch for literally no reason....... i tested and do more damage with vindicator 1 than with mecha 1 even without using the extra damage from vindi dodge, just to say how bad Mecha is......... (and yeah, you need to factor that a lot of people use Mecha (high % of users you see on the logs) because they like Robot, like myself, not because some random OP idea of the class).

[Sensations.9507]

4 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Condi Mecha have the "piano build" as the Ele spec, but do less damage then Ele spec, so, not the best and most usefull thing to play if you want the best dps, that is the problem at the base of the spec.

And Holo is a Power dps class that depend heavily on the time in proton forge (the hard part in the rotation is get the heat under control when you fight a boss), don't understand why people set it as condi.......... at least take the hybrid way if you seriously want some condi in, and as power, Holo destroy Mecha, even scrapper destroy Mecha.... so, don't understand all those problem with Mecha, who is literally "nerf destroyed" every patch for literally no reason....... i tested and do more damage with vindicator 1 than with mecha 1 even without using the extra damage from vindi dodge, just to say how bad Mecha is......... (and yeah, you need to factor that a lot of people use Mecha (high % of users you see on the logs) because they like Robot, like myself, not because some random OP idea of the class).

Holosmith is not a 'power' spec.  That is scrapper.  Scrapper can ONLY be power.  Over half of Holo traits are condi based.  Holosmith only became a pure POWER spec recently because of ANET patches.  Condi engineer in general was overnerfed years ago and condi holosmith has never recovered.  Power holosmith was terrible too until the last two patches buffed it up to just barely sufficient.  The meta for the last 3 months doesnt define Holosmiths 6 years of history........  Condi holosmith is down bad compared to its competition.  Power holosmith really isnt shining too bright either.

[coro.3176]

Over half of holo traits? what?  There are only two out of twelve total traits: Solar Focusing Lens and Thermal Release Valve. (the latter, I should note has been absolutely criminally nerfed in PvP/WvW to a mere ~10% of its PvE effectiveness)

Look, I wish there was more condi support in *all* of engineer's traitlines, but there just isn't.

Edited February 7, 2023 by coro.3176

[Kodama.6453]

6 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

Over half of holo traits? what?  There are only two out of twelve total traits: Solar Focusing Lens and Thermal Release Valve. (the latter, I should note has been absolutely criminally nerfed in PvP/WvW to a mere ~10% of its PvE effectiveness)

Look, I wish there was more condi support in *all* of engineer's traitlines, but there just isn't.

We can also count photonic blasting module, I guess, since it causes burn, but it competes with thermal release valve.There are more and better traits working for power damage on holosmith.

Additionally, they ignore the skills.

Holosmith comes with the photon forge as the class mechanic, which the entire trait line is built around. Just one of it's 5 skills, photon blitz, is applying any conditions on enemies. Meanwhile all 5 photon forge skills deal really respectable power damage.

Utility skills? The only one good for condition damage is prime light beam, since it causes burn. But for power damage, we can work with prime light beam, laser disk, photon wall and hard light arena (the toolbelt deals ok power damage with 1,2 power coefficient).

Weapon skills? Sword is entirely power based, not usable for condi builds really.

Holosmith might have some burn here and there, but it is so overwhelmingly more power focused, I really wonder how anyone can claim otherwise.

 

[Jerus.4350]

I'd love to see Laser's Edge damage modifier work on Condi as well.  I think it would make for an interesting playstyle of loading up condi's and then riding that Laser's Edge buff while you can, rinse and repeat.  Might even make Condi ECSU a thing. 

 

As far as the "Holo is already good at Power" thing, why can't it be good at both?  A spec that only does one thing is kinda disappointing, what's the point of 9 trait options if most of them aren't used?   cHolo is so close to being good, just 1 or 2 tweaks and it's there.

[Sensations.9507]

3 hours ago, Jerus.4350 said:

I'd love to see Laser's Edge damage modifier work on Condi as well.  I think it would make for an interesting playstyle of loading up condi's and then riding that Laser's Edge buff while you can, rinse and repeat.  Might even make Condi ECSU a thing. 

 

As far as the "Holo is already good at Power" thing, why can't it be good at both?  A spec that only does one thing is kinda disappointing, what's the point of 9 trait options if most of them aren't used?   cHolo is so close to being good, just 1 or 2 tweaks and it's there.

This right here.  Why is a spec that is only bringing its dps and some vuln/might only able to do a bit of power dps?  Why cant it do good Power AND Condi dps?  Dont we want Holo to be good?

[Kuma.1503]

On 2/5/2023 at 9:15 PM, Sensations.9507 said:

Another thing you completely ignore is that Mech which can do every role in the game besides quickness boon support does more damage than a pure dps spec holosmith... Figure that one out for us.  Mech can heal/boon support/dps....  Please form a complete argument instead of pulling a single benchmark video out of context.  If 36k was actually possible in fights Snowcrows would have it up there.  You cant just look at it in a vacuum you have to look at what its up against.  What are the other pure dps specs doing?  Other specs are hurting just like holo, for example dragonhunter and reaper were doing very badly. Both of them are getting back to back buffs to get them up to 38-40k dps.  I am pointing out that condi holo even if it could hit its supposed benchmark of 36k is still 10%+ behind with almost no support outside of vuln and a bit of might.

Firebrand can do every role in the game except alac boon support, but it's a better condi DPS than DH who is pure selfish DPS. 

Scourge is markedly the supportive necro spec with insane barriers and revives to carry groups. Yet it's the consistent choice for pure condi DPS over reaper. 

The reasoning is simple. Some specs are built for power. Some are built for condi.

Sometimes these power/condi specs can also support, like we see with Scrapper, which is a power based support, and scourge/fb which are condi based supports. 

Holosmith is a power elite spec. It has some incidental burns here and there, but it's built to be a power spec first and foremost. Condi is at best an afterthought. 

 

Mechanist was obviously built from the ground up with condition builds in mind. It's mainhand weapon, mace, does conditions on the auto attack. The 2 and 3 skill inflict confusion and burning respectively. It's profession mechanic (the mech) has plenty of access to burning and confusion. Its traits (even sky circus which is in the same row as the power traits) have burning on them. It also far more traits traits which explicitly support a condi based playstyle. Its utility skills also support condition builds. Overclock signet inflicts a lot of buning in one go. Superconductor signet both increases your Condition damage by 10% (permenantly if traited), and inflicts a huge burst of pulsing conditions. 

Compare this to Holosmith which has 2 traits to support a condi based playstyle (both of which are nerfed to the ground and useless for DPS purposes in PvP/WvW). Sword only inflicts bleeding on the 2 and has no condis anywhere else. Forge also lacks consistent condi output. You only have condi on photon blitz. For utility skills, you have a small amount of bleeding on lazer disk and some burning on prime light beam. 

Holo simply has fewer tools to work with in order to make a condi build work. That is why condi mech out performs it. In order to change that ANet would have to rework how Holo works. For example, they could make sword autos/forge autos inflict burning based on heat level.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Yasai.3549]

Only thing that would let Condi Holo actually become viable is to directly add Condi application to Storm Config. Saccing a trait just to get 33% chance to apply Bleed on your autos is dogwater, no dogsewage. 

So either: 
1. Add condi application directly to Storm

2. Config Storm additionally causes you to pulse Burning in AoE while in Photon Forge on interval, with more stacks depending on what Heat threshold you are at. (1 stack at <50% 2 stacks at > 50% 3 stacks at > 75%) 

[Jerus.4350]

7 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Firebrand can do every role in the game except alac boon support, but it's a better condi DPS than DH who is pure selfish DPS. 

Scourge is markedly the supportive necro spec with insane barriers and revives to carry groups. Yet it's the consistent choice for pure condi DPS over reaper. 

The reasoning is simple. Some specs are built for power. Some are built for condi.

Sometimes these power/condi specs can also support, like we see with Scrapper, which is a power based support, and scourge/fb which are condi based supports. 

Holosmith is a power elite spec. It has some incidental burns here and there, but it's built to be a power spec first and foremost. Condi is at best an afterthought. 

 

Mechanist was obviously built from the ground up with condition builds in mind. It's mainhand weapon, mace, does conditions on the auto attack. The 2 and 3 skill inflict confusion and burning respectively. It's profession mechanic (the mech) has plenty of access to burning and confusion. Its traits (even sky circus which is in the same row as the power traits) have burning on them. It also far more traits traits which explicitly support a condi based playstyle. Its utility skills also support condition builds. Overclock signet inflicts a lot of buning in one go. Superconductor signet both increases your Condition damage by 10% (permenantly if traited), and inflicts a huge burst of pulsing conditions. 

Compare this to Holosmith which has 2 traits to support a condi based playstyle (both of which are nerfed to the ground and useless for DPS purposes in PvP/WvW). Sword only inflicts bleeding on the 2 and has no condis anywhere else. Forge also lacks consistent condi output. You only have condi on photon blitz. For utility skills, you have a small amount of bleeding on lazer disk and some burning on prime light beam. 

Holo simply has fewer tools to work with in order to make a condi build work. That is why condi mech out performs it. In order to change that ANet would have to rework how Holo works. For example, they could make sword autos/forge autos inflict burning based on heat level.

It's been said cHolo isn't condi by design, but in spite of it's design.  Basically cEngi is so strong that cHolo simply exists because it's not worse than the Tools Traitline for Condi (Like Scrapper). 

 

I don't really care what Holo was designed as though.  Fact is it has a viable condi build already and it could be a good condi build with a couple tweaks.  Just making Lasers Edge work on Condi would push it there most likely.   You could also tweak some other skills in Forge to get burning, like what if the PBM trait also changed Corona Burst into a hybrid skill applying burning with less power damage (If it's going to be left in the dust for Power damage why not?)

 

I really see no reason not to consider Holo for some condi focused tweaks when it's this close to being good already.

[Wolfb.7025]

Make Laser's Edge give Condi % DMG aditional to Strike DMG when the grandmaster trait Photon Blasting Module is selected.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

On 2/11/2023 at 7:52 AM, Wolfb.7025 said:

Make Laser's Edge give Condi % DMG aditional to Strike DMG when the grandmaster trait Photon Blasting Module is selected.

 

Funny enough this would probably boost a tiny bit the old PBM build rather than create a completely new condi Holo build.

 

There are just not enough condition trait and holo skill that gives condi. I mean sure the laser disk gives bleeding yay, the elite can burn and drop a light field that burns yay but that's it. The main reason you can kind of make it works is because Firearms lines and kits do all the heavy lifting.

[Suyheuti.1732]

On 2/10/2023 at 9:52 PM, Wolfb.7025 said:

Make Laser's Edge give Condi % DMG aditional to Strike DMG when the grandmaster trait Photon Blasting Module is selected.

Actually there are several ways. 
* Like you said, Laser Edge might give additional condi damage but not only PBM. With all traits. 
* Crystal Configuration: Storm might deal bleeding damage with extra %1 heat instead of projectiles. 
* To synergize TRV, Anet can change “Takedown Round and Excessive Energy” traits in Tools traitline into all damage dealt, not only Strike Damage dealt. Engineer with Tools, Firearms, TRV Holosmith traitline might be a thing after that. 

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, Suyheuti.1732 said:

* Crystal Configuration: Storm might deal bleeding damage with extra %1 heat instead of projectiles. 

I would personally keep the projectiles. It's not like the trait would become too strong just by adding bleeding to it, since nobody is using that trait currently. Wouldn't be too strong either, because it is counterbalanced by the projectile attack dealing less power damage than the melee versions.

I also would like to keep them, because it allows us to trigger AAR with the photon forge auto attack.

[Wolfb.7025]

On 2/13/2023 at 5:29 PM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Funny enough this would probably boost a tiny bit the old PBM build rather than create a completely new condi Holo build.

The condi damage portion of PBM holo only takes about 10% of the total dmg, this wouldn't boost much the damage of power builds. Which is also something that PBM holo needs since it's pretty obsolete now that ECSU is way, waay better dps and utility wise.

 

On 2/13/2023 at 5:29 PM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

There are just not enough condition trait and holo skill that gives condi. I mean sure the laser disk gives bleeding yay, the elite can burn and drop a light field that burns yay but that's it. The main reason you can kind of make it works is because Firearms lines and kits do all the heavy lifting.

Solar Focusing Lens, Prime Light Beam and Photon Blasting Module are the reason Condi Holosmith deals more damage than Core Condi Engi. You don't use Laser disc on the Condi Holosmith build.

 

9 hours ago, Suyheuti.1732 said:

* Like you said, Laser Edge might give additional condi damage but not only PBM. With all traits. 
* Crystal Configuration: Storm might deal bleeding damage with extra %1 heat instead of projectiles. 

My intention to make it PBM exclusive is to prevent giving more buffs to the ECSU build, which is already pretty optimal.

Bleeding dmg instead of ranged might be a good suggestion.