The Boz.2038 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 7 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Oh, so in your opinion SPvP population actually did not suffer a significant decrease in last 5-6 years? I don't do SPvP. I have no way of knowing how those numbers fluctuate. See how easy that was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 Just now, The Boz.2038 said: I don't do SPvP. I have no way of knowing how those numbers fluctuate. See how easy that was? Did the Devs openly create a thread telling people " welp not enought people are playing PvP" and halted them for a while ? Because pvp is low mentance (no need to crate new maps every 3 months) 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Some of those are indeed just my opinions. Some of those are not. For example, no matter anyone's opinion, thinking that players playing content they think unenjoyable and unpleasant will not result in them staying in game longer is hardly contentious, don't you think? True, I also think that we have had just as many posts from players who eventually enjoyed raiding or challenging content as we've had players who claim they will not enjoy the content (this also applies to WvW, though to a lesser extent, which is no surprise given its hybrid nature. The one mode where this seems unanimously unfavorable or at least least mentioned seems to be spvp). Notice how this thread (or many threads like it)has players advocating for what others will like or not like. Or from players who vehemently refuse to do content XYZ. The amount of players that actually do attempt a specific type of content and THEN decide that they dislike it, is a niche among those who are making arguments. Which brings us full circle to what I said earlier: - players should advocate for what THEY want and refrain from making broad claims as to what others will or might enjoy - players should try content first, then make statements about what they want changed 29 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: If succesful, yes. But that only generally happens if those bonds are formed among like-minded players. If they are formed between players of vastly different mindsets and outlooks, it will most of the time result in exact opposite result - faster burnout due to social drama (so, one of the factors that has long plagued raid communities in many games). What if they won't? Because so far your hopefulness does not seem to be reflected ingame - even after 10 years of it. If anything, the rifts between players grow even stronger, and relations between players of different playstyles become even more toxic. Sorry but I don't see your claims reflected in game atm. I have seen vilification of the raiding community in the past (just as there is a constant derogatory stance towards only "open world players") , especially by players who had no raid experience to begin with. On the contrary, the dialogue and arguments have vastly changed over the years. I'd say the raid community and the games community overall has shifted drastically to a more inclusive and accepting place of challenging content while the forum warrior crowd opposing this type of content has been growing more and more silent. Not only that, but they have been running out of proper arguments to make in the first place, given most have been refuted for what they were: tales of the boogeyman. Accompanied by more and more PvE communities growing around different types of content. Yes, raids are niche content (and will likely not see any development in the near future, maybe if they had been sustained better in the past) and strikes are a more economic approach to develop similar content. Still it seems it is niche content which is required and the developers are making every attempt they can to provide this content as well as make it more accessible to get more players into it. 29 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Yes. This happens also when devs think they know better what players want, but happen to guess wrong. And try to force the issue even after it will show they guessed wrong. Yes. The devs need to be extremely careful about pushing the boundaries. And, if in doubt, should rather err on the side of caution, because pushing too weakly is far less of a problem than pushing too much and causing a backlash. Oh on that we both agree, but I am coming to a vastly different conclusion than you here. I think the developers where neglecting specific niche content of the game for years, most notably challenging instanced content, and it took them a lot of work and ongoing work to make up for those mistakes. It literally took them a close to shutdown of the game and massive intervention of their publisher to change course. Are they on a positive course now? Who knows, at least the numbers and results speak for themselves and they indicate: yes. 29 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: You concentrate too much on stats alone and the mechanical balance. You severely underestimate the "completion" factor, the "shiny" factor, and the QoL draw brough in by legendary wardrobe. Sure, but that "shiny" factor is not a necessity to enjoy the game and might as well be used to encourage players. 29 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Again, there are limits. Also "dedicated" means different things. There's a whole category of players in MMORPGs that are dubbed "dedicated casuals" which seems quite numerous, actually, and should not be ignored. Let's just say that game suffering because of it is just your opinion. Based mostly on fact thay you, personally, liked raiding. I however see nothing that would justify it. Sure, I base my interpretation and view on what I have experienced and that of my immediate contacts. I also base it on how the game "seems" to be doing revenue and number wise. Edited January 20, 2023 by Cyninja.2954 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Because for me doing so resulted in massive diminishment of my enjoyment of this game, and i'd rather this did not happen to anyone else. The amount of players that enjoy all of the game modes is extremely small - too small to depend on them for this game's longevity. As such, trying to decrease fun for everyone else is actually counterproductive for this game's future. It's not making people play more. It's making them play less. Interesting how it was such a huge suffering for you but we've met in a random pug raid, from my understanding after you had the rewards you wanted. Maybe it "diminished your enjoyment of the game" because you were hyper-focused on rushing the rewards and not because of the playable content itself. 2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Also, notice, that the "blast few years worth of content" did not include raids That's what you think? Even though they've compared raids to "adding the last step of the ladder" and then focused on "adding the rest of the ladder" through strikes, with latest ones literally rewarding li? Somehow you still think these things have no direct relation? 🤔 2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: As such, restricting a specific legendary armor skin to a niche content is fine, but restricting whole category of "legendary armors" only to niche contents (that are niche not just separately, but even when taken together) is not. "...is not" why? It very much is fine because: 2 hours ago, vares.8457 said: legendary armor is a great motivation to play more and different content. But if you don’t want that, you don’t have a disadvantage. Legendary armor is completely optional and has the same stats as ascended. Edited January 20, 2023 by Sobx.1758 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: Oh on that we both agree, but I am coming to a vastly different conclusion than you here. I think the developers where neglecting specific niche content of the game for years, most notably challenging instanced content, and it took them a lot of work and ongoing work to make up for those mistakes. It literally took them a close to shutdown of the game and massive intervention of their publisher to change course. Are they on a positive course now? Who knows, at least the numbers and results speak for themselves and they indicate: yes. Sure, but that "shiny" factor is not a necessity to enjoy the game and might as well be used to encourage players. Sure, I base my interpretation and view on what I have experienced and that of my immediate contacts. I also base it on how the game "seems" to be doing revenue and number wise. Those old hags publicers are cheeky people that use GW2/Arenanet games as "advertisments" for future asian games (Welcome to Aion 3 , from the publicer of GW2/Arenanet , no pay-to-win here to see). Most asian companies will take the same route in te future and they "sponsore" future western games , for the same reason , to fix their "western image" (ifffff they will be new games and biggers ones dont boycot them (beackons)) . Someday like GW1 , they will go full force to the next game . They didnt almost get shutdown ,. because they didnt release Raids . That community should "change course" and steer the wheel (auto-lfg , OW legendary , not pushing people to do 20k dps) , becuase things aint working 😛 Spoiler (how much time i have left before i get fired , when use phrases like: "do some prayer and open some candles infront of the Virgin Mary pic , if your inernet lags my dude , idk..." or "let me connect you above t2 support , and we will guide your router in it's final resting place" as a t1 support ?) Edited January 20, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said: That community should "change course" and steer the wheel (auto-lfg , OW legendary , not pushing people to do 20k dps) , becuase things aint working 😛 It does seem to me that you would be far happier playing a different game. Possibly a single player one, without specific roles or responsibilities in a team. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 Just now, The Boz.2038 said: It does seem to me that you would be far happier playing a different game. Possibly a single player one, without specific roles or responsibilities in a team. I will stick around for the next 5,5 years . I have to protect the OW people 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: True, I also think that we have had just as many posts from players who eventually enjoyed raiding or challenging content as we've had players who claim they will not enjoy the content (this also applies to WvW, though to a lesser extent, which is no surprise given its hybrid nature. The one mode where this seems unanimously unfavorable or at least least mentioned seems to be spvp). I don't think it's as equal as it seems to you, but even if it is, raid community being vastly overrepresented on game forums is a known phenomenon. Also, it's not "people that claim they will not enjoy the content". Over the years we've had a lot of posters that mentioned not enjoying the raids after having already tried them. 2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: Notice how this thread (or many threads like it)has players advocating for what others will like or not like. I'd say that trying to prevent others from getting something based on what you think they don't need is a far greater sin than asking too much for someone else because you think they might enjoy it. 2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: Or from players who vehemently refuse to do content XYZ. The amount of players that actually do attempt a specific type of content and THEN decide that they dislike it, is a niche among those who are making arguments. Maybe it is. The amount of raiders that know far better than non-raiders what non-raiders need or want or like (or should like) is definitely high here. Seen a lot of players that claimed they did try raids and didn't like it, or several that say they are raiding but still support other options though. Of course, i can't verify their actual experiences, so all i can say is that i have tried raids, have obtained my legendary armor set through them, and it didn't change my opinion of that mode for the better in the slightest. 2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: Sorry but I don't see your claims reflected in game atm. I have seen vilification of the raiding community in the past (just as there is a constant derogatory stance towards only "open world players") , especially by players who had no raid experience to begin with. On the contrary, the dialogue and arguments have vastly changed over the years. I'd say the raid community and the games community overall has shifted drastically to a more inclusive and accepting place of challenging content while the forum warrior crowd opposing this type of content has been growing more and more silent. Forums are not in game. Obviously, on forums, where raid community (and hardcore players in general) are vastly overrepresented you will see such an effect. basically of the more casually minded players you can see nowadays only very fresh ones, or very few most stubborn ones. Rest have stopped posting. There's a reason why most people that complain about raid-related stuff stop posting on these forums shortly thereafter, and the (definitely not "more inclusive and accepting") responses of most of the hardcore crowd play a big reason for that. Frankly, over the years you are probably the last person on the raid side i can actually sensibly argue with. 2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: Not only that, but they have been running out of proper arguments to make in the first place, given most have been refuted for what they were: tales of the boogeyman. Let's just say that i disagree with your assessment of the situation. In fact, this whole thread shows clearly how the gaps between the different parts widened, and how far the "discussion" has degenerated. Most of the posters (on both sides, yes) do not even bother to understand posts of others, or brings up old, used arguments. Even though most of those arguments (again, yes, on both sides) has long ago been proven wrong. Often to the very same people that still keep using them. 2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: Yes, raids are niche content (and will likely not see any development in the near future, maybe if they had been sustained better in the past) and strikes are a more economic approach to develop similar content. Still it seems it is niche content which is required and the developers are making every attempt they can to provide this content as well as make it more accessible to get more players into it. Yes. Developers repeating the same (or similar) attempts to achieve the same thing, getting pretty much the same results (and learning next to nothing in the process) is a significant part of why nothing has changed for the better over the years as far as those issues ar concerned. 2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: It literally took them a close to shutdown of the game and massive intervention of their publisher to change course. We've had this discussion before. Again, i do not think that near shutdown and publisher intervention had anything to do with abandonment of high-end content specifically, but rather with the abandonment on the game as a whole. 2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: Are they on a positive course now? Who knows, at least the numbers and results speak for themselves and they indicate: yes. Again, i do not think that it has anything to do with high-end content specifically. 2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: Sure, but that "shiny" factor is not a necessity to enjoy the game and might as well be used to encourage players. Encourage players to not have fun? That's not a good encouragement. 2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: Sure, I base my interpretation and view on what I have experienced and that of my immediate contacts. I also base it on how the game "seems" to be doing revenue and number wise. And, again, i think that you are mistaken in assuming causation, instead of just correlation between high-end content development and those numbers. 3 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biziut.3594 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 2 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said: I have to protect the OW people Please start doing so, becouse for now you are only embarassing yourself. 2 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: I'd say that trying to prevent others from getting something based on what you think they don't need is a far greater sin than asking too much for someone else because you think they might enjoy it. Nobody is preventing anyone from getting anything. Don't want to play more of the game? Then don't and keep playing with exotics/ascended, not sure how that's somehow an issue all of the sudden. Didn't you agree with the sentence "You should have to play a variety of content to get full legendary." here? And since apparently now you understand how your issue with it ("The issue is not that Legendary armor requires playing niche modes, but that it requires longterm fulltime commitment to them.") was baseless because it doesn't require "fulltime commitment" (or "playing it as primary mode"), I'm not sure why it's somehow still problematic for you. Edited January 20, 2023 by Sobx.1758 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Biziut.3594 said: Please start doing so, becouse for now you are only embarassing yourself. Well... you see , some people dont have very good track record . They graduated from "5K Ap + link Berseker gear" and they moved to "250 LI and you must do 20k dps + dont die once" .. and now they are trying to go in the OW(hardcore OW..get them ready for raids) or telling people "You dont need Legendary , go in Raids instead to get it"(so the company see the influx of new people in Raids and restart them) ... They have to admit they cannot change ... and they only thing left to do for them, is to argue with OW people so the no longer respond/ask to specific threads (No need easy mode-+ no auto-lfg + no OW legendary + raid selling is good) .... Theres 2 ways to solve the problem : a) Don't create conflict with OW vs Raid legendary gear . People tried the Strikes , but some people tried to boycot the 3rd Strikes , in order to sell mount ...hence the auo-lfg + prohibiting the Raid selling like other games will fix any futureissue b) Lets continue for 5,5 this conversation and offer some enjoyment to the OW casuals 😛 Edited January 20, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said: and they moved to "250 LI and you must do 20k dps + dont die once" .. and now they are trying to go in the OW False, stop spreading lies. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 Just now, Sobx.1758 said: False, stop spreading lies. Noooooooooo 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said: Noooooooooo "No" as in you won't stop spreading lies? Finally some honesty. Your repeated "20k +don't die once" take on the instanced content is still simply false. Ah and generally people don't say anything like this in these threads: 51 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said: + raid selling is good so once again stop pretending a discussion about aspirational content or "playing more of the game for more rewards" has anything to do with people selling raids. You keep repeating this in an attempt to equate people you're against with raid sellers, but that's just something you made up. Edited January 20, 2023 by Sobx.1758 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: "No" as in you won't stop spreading lies? Finally some honesty. Your repeated "20k +don't die once" take on the instanced content is still simply false. kitten , you found me out , i am not a match for you . Maybe i should wait for some raid leaders to respond and and re-respond to them 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said: kitten , you found me out , i am not a match for you . Maybe i should wait for some raid leaders to respond and and re-respond to them "Raid leaders"? I don't know what you're trying to say here. Edited January 20, 2023 by Sobx.1758 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biziut.3594 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said: "Raid leaders"? I don't know what you're trying to say here. You need to look at this with His own eyes, than You will see. In Tyria there once was a kingdom of "OW Casuals". All was well, until Tyrian Gods allowed foul creatures from the forbidden dark lands enter this beautiful and peaceful lands of Tyria, their name, (I shudder even thinking of them) were "Raiders". Their tribe leaders fought their enemy with their repulsive weapon called "The Kick Button", and becouse Casuals were peaceful and they didn't ever knew toxicness, they started to slowly lose this horrible war. That is until, a special child logged in. Blessed with the power of erudition gained most probably from stuttering, elder, secluded skritt. He weave his net of unrelated topics and casts it onto these filthy Raiders, causing 99999 stacks of utter confusion, which makes them wanna kill themselves by just reading what he has written. He hope that one day he will meet with the great, literally unexisting leaders of this Raider tribes, claensing Tyria and turning it into a land of peace once more. I hope you understand now, his struggle, his war... becouse I do not. xd Edited January 21, 2023 by Biziut.3594 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 22 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said: And people can raid for PvE armor . It is their optional reward to get or not . We dont need afkers tlling us that we need it handed to us 😛 You mean afk'ers in WvW? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 19 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said: I will stick around for the next 5,5 years . I have to protect the OW people I wouldn't, this thread has attracted the attention of the more self centred side of the niche raiding community who think PVE players who dislike raids (the majority of the community) should raid (ehh?) if they want end game PVE goals. Its such a dated tunnel-visioned viewpoint that thinks raiding is the top of the PVE content hierarchy, when actually in GW2 its a small side event. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: I wouldn't, this thread has attracted the attention of the more self centred side of the niche raiding community who think PVE players who dislike raids (the majority of the community) should raid (ehh?) if they want end game PVE goals. Its such a dated tunnel-visioned viewpoint that thinks raiding is the top of the PVE content hierarchy, when actually in GW2 its a small side event. Throwing insults is back on the table, boys (and girls)! But it's ok only as long as vesica tempestas does it. Edited January 21, 2023 by Sobx.1758 3 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vares.8457 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said: I wouldn't, this thread has attracted the attention of the more self centred side of the niche raiding community who think PVE players who dislike raids (the majority of the community) should raid (ehh?) if they want end game PVE goals. Its such a dated tunnel-visioned viewpoint that thinks raiding is the top of the PVE content hierarchy, when actually in GW2 its a small side event. How do you know that the majority dislikes raids and not that they don’t raid because they aren’t interested in raiding, the rewards and the legendary armor? Do you have numbers that show why people don’t raid? I play mainly WvW and don’t really raid, but not because I dislike it, I already got my legendary armors and want to spend my time in WvW. But I know, you are just here to insult others. Edited January 21, 2023 by vares.8457 2 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, vares.8457 said: How do you know that the majority dislikes raids and not that they don’t raid because they aren’t interested in raiding, the rewards and the legendary armor? Do you have numbers that show why people don’t raid? I play mainly WvW and don’t really raid, but not because I dislike it, I already got my legendary armors and want to spend my time in WvW. But I know, you are just here to insult others. Nope hes right . We cannot let raiders(including you) from denying things that the OW populatations wants (better lfg/auto-lfg + OW legendary +easy mode) . It will better 'call out to that tiny populations" (THAT CREATED THESE PROBLEMS) ,and simply ask them politly to be the one that change (are they going to lose the Raid-seling Market ? Or those tools dont create community ? How the community part is doing so far without them ?), or simply protect any future OW player from the "same cycle" that will face with the raiders ("its your problem casual OW that are getting kicked ...read a guide..spent 30 min in the Training Doll") .(hence 5,5 years protecting the OW people) . It will better to loose some vocal minority than , than effect the rest of the game Edited January 21, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vares.8457 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said: Nope hes right . Then please, mighty protector of the open world, provide the numbers that show he’s right, I’m curious. Edited January 21, 2023 by vares.8457 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, vares.8457 said: Then please provide the numbers that show he’s right, I’m curious. Mr Raider in the part that we dont have Raids (with their own seperate story (if it will compiled of the normal story that people have access in story mode , will be a differnt thing in the future) 😛 And if the numbers is true , then you dont need to limit people from OW armor 😛 Its their choice to get or not the grind OW Armor (different skins from the Raid One) 😛 You dont have to limit them , so they only choice is to come to you , where you are saying that people are doing already Raids😛 Edited January 21, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 38 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said: (better lfg/auto-lfg + OW legendary +easy mode) This has to be a Poe. Some kind of sarcasm. Please. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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