Remove Crit Damage as an Armor Stat

[Kalthea.4326]

As the title says.

 

Removing this as a stat will make balancing far easier for different armor sets, allow power builds to be rebalanced by introducing talents that increase the crit damage instead, and make it so that Berserker's is not as prolific, allowing for FAR more build customization.

 

To anyone arguing that "this would just make people look elsewhere for their power gain", yeah, that's the point. As for what you would replace it with on the gear, honestly? Just replace the Crit Damage buff with move speed or something fun that isn't just focused on being a crutch for power builds to be able to compete with condi builds.

[Beddo.1907]

People would just play condi.

In PvE Viper is best for condi, Harrier is best for heal and Berserker is best for power.
There is no point in removing Ferocity from gear, cause everyone will run the same BiS stat disposition anyway.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Beddo.1907

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Sooooooooo...... you want to remoce the Crit dmg from gear and put the stat you remove in traits.

By your logic, powerbuilds would just become better. I mean, we get the Crit dmg for free from traits now and can choose Stat Combos like Zealot and gain 960 healpower for free.

As a Warrior. I approve. 

I will never die again!

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

How about we remove condition duration instead eh?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

3 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

People would just play condi.

In PvE Viper is best for condi, Harrier is best for heal and Berserker is best for power.
There is no point in removing Ferocity from gear, cause everyone will run the same BiS stat disposition anyway.

Harrier best for heal? Minstrel's is best for heal (technically Cleric and Magi, but they don't have boon duration). Harrier's is taken for the boon duration combined with still having some power damage, but it has much weaker healing, barely higher than Celestial.

 

Berserker's must be mixed with Assassins's since crit-capping is more important than power gain.

 

Viper is only best for conditions if the class does more than one condition. For a single condition you can often max out on something like Grieving and do more damage, with maybe a few Viper's pieces.

 

These are just a few examples, there's many more, like Vitality being tied to damage on some classes, and thus Marauder being overall more efficient on average in those cases.

 

There is no Best in Slot/BiS in this game. If you're not wearing an optimal mix of gear you're losing efficiency. Full Berserker, Harrier, Viper, etc is just a relic of the past before computationally-optimised combinations were found (which dispelled many myths) and before all the trait powercreep.

 

Anyway, we don't need less power damage stats, we need a third condition damage stat so maxing out condition builds is just as difficult as maxing out power builds. Right now, its far too easy to take some power damage on your condi builds because its just unused space otherwise.

 

This means that most condi builds are actually hybrid builds.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Beddo.1907]

1 hour ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Harrier best for heal? Minstrel's is best for heal (technically Cleric and Magi, but they don't have boon duration). Harrier's is taken for the boon duration combined with still having some power damage, but it has much weaker healing, barely higher than Celestial.

 

Berserker's must be mixed with Assassins's since crit-capping is more important than power gain.

 

Viper is only best for conditions if the class does more than one condition. For a single condition you can often max out on something like Grieving and do more damage, with maybe a few Viper's pieces.

 

These are just a few examples, there's many more, like Vitality being tied to damage on some classes, and thus Marauder being overall more efficient on average in those cases.

 

There is no Best in Slot/BiS in this game. If you're not wearing an optimal mix of gear you're losing efficiency. Full Berserker, Harrier, Viper, etc is just a relic of the past before computationally-optimised combinations were found (which dispelled many myths) and before all the trait powercreep.

 

Anyway, we don't need less power damage stats, we need a third condition damage stat so maxing out condition builds is just as difficult as maxing out power builds. Right now, its far too easy to take some power damage on your condi builds because its just unused space otherwise.

 

This means that most condi builds are actually hybrid builds.

I haven't seen any healer play minstrel in pve since pof.

Also I'm mostly talking about armor stats, obviously you'd like to mix in other stats on trinkets. As for the marauder part, I don't think there is any vit scaling that's better than just more offensive stats, but I'll take your word for it.

In the end the point is that removing X armor stat combination just leads to another combination being the best for most builds of that archetype.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Might as well remove every stat and balance only around traits at that point. 

[Kalthea.4326]

2 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Might as well remove every stat and balance only around traits at that point. 

Honestly, that's what I would do, and then relegate most gear to sigil and runes.

 

But I get it, it's too drastic a change. Gotta keep things complicated and difficult to balance.

 

Jokes aside, adding more stats to grab isn't a good way of handling it, as it would just complicate builds even more. Heck, already does. Moving the crit damage to traits instead of gear (or even attaching it to skills to make some form of combos) would make things easier to balance between condi and power. As things are, balance is extremely difficult to achieve, which has been an obvious issue for a long time.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

This gets complicated, as from a Ranger perspective we already have what OP wants, in that we have a trait that increases crit chance when we gain fury (i.e., nearly always).  

I do think this allows for some measure of power creep as if someone takes Vicious Quarry they can focus on maxing out the precision without caring about ferocity--I do this via assassin's.  The same trait actually increases precision too, so can even take more defenses and retain effective power.

It also seems anet is or at least has the idea of moving away from this idea, because we can take Spotter for example.  It used to be a flat precision increase for an entire group and now it's mostly worthless with pulsing fury every so often (and you have to go out of your way to not have fury on a Ranger).  

Think I also agree with condition needing an extra stat or rolling precision and ferocity together (again? thought they were at one time).  It's just weird having condition damage be this flat thing where power you have to worry about crits to be effective.  Not that I really want conditions to be able to crit, but they need something to balance them out.  

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 hour ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

Honestly, that's what I would do, and then relegate most gear to sigil and runes.

 

But I get it, it's too drastic a change. Gotta keep things complicated and difficult to balance.

 

Jokes aside, adding more stats to grab isn't a good way of handling it, as it would just complicate builds even more. Heck, already does. Moving the crit damage to traits instead of gear (or even attaching it to skills to make some form of combos) would make things easier to balance between condi and power. As things are, balance is extremely difficult to achieve, which has been an obvious issue for a long time.

Imagine you are a company.

The System you use is fine and brings in a profit every month.

Now some dude shows up and tells you your Company could increase in Profit with a System change.

Dude only tells you vague Ideas. He doesnt even provide the full scope of the changes himself.

It will now take hundreds of Workhours just to figure out a way to put his Ideas into a Working System.

And even more hundreds of Hours to actually build the System.

The Finetuning isnt even included yet.

And all that just because MAYBE it could bring in a bigger Profit.

It could also Fail so hard, it destroys your Company.🤷‍♂️


Do you take the risk?

Edited January 22, 2023 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Kalthea.4326]

7 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Imagine you are a company.

The System you use is fine and brings in a profit every month.

Now some dude shows up and tells you your Company could increase in Profit with a System change.

Dude only tells you vague Ideas. He doesnt even provide the full scope of the changes himself.

It will now take hundreds of Workhours just to figure out a way to put his Ideas into a Working System.

And even more hundreds of Hours to actually build the System.

The Finetuning isnt even included yet.

And all that just because MAYBE it could bring in a bigger Profit.

It could also Fail so hard, it destroys your Company.🤷‍♂️


Do you take the risk?

Imagine having to hire several teams over the span of a couple years just to try to fix the current state of your company, and as more and more changes are made, you continue to push yourself into a far more complicated system that is having difficulty sustaining itself. Now also imagine that as you continue doing so, you neglect increasingly larger portions of your company, causing problems down the line for side-revenue.

 

Analogies aside, you need to think about the larger scope in this situation. Of course removing it immediately without any other changes would throw a big wrench into things. But that's why I'm suggesting to move things around. As the game currently is, it's a balancing disaster of boon spam and weird number changes that ultimately cause more problems in the long run. By moving crit damage into talent trees, you allow builds to actually utilize that trait line for a properly focused build, which is what they are meant for anyway. Heck, I would just remove the crit damage stat entirely, since you will almost never run crit chance without crit damage.

 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

I mean it does make sense to combine precision and ferocity into a single stat. They go hand in hand, and every other metric has only 2 stats, except strike damage which now has 3 for some reason. All others only have 2:

Condi has condi damage and expertise.

Defense has vit and toughness.

Support has healing power and concentration.

I also like the idea of taking stats off items except for runes, trinkets, and sigils. I mean come on, it's weird when light armor has more toughness than heavy armor, even it is magic.

 

[Kalthea.4326]

11 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I mean it does make sense to combine precision and ferocity into a single stat. They go hand in hand, and every other metric has only 2 stats, except strike damage which now has 3 for some reason. All others only have 2:

Condi has condi damage and expertise.

Defense has vit and toughness.

Support has healing power and concentration.

I also like the idea of taking stats off items except for runes, trinkets, and sigils. I mean come on, it's weird when light armor has more toughness than heavy armor, even it is magic.

 

A single stat wouldn't be the worst, but I feel that would provide a few awkward situations of snowballing where some classes get more precision than others, thus increasing their crit damage more than others. Would be interesting though!

[Gaiawolf.8261]

39 minutes ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

A single stat wouldn't be the worst, but I feel that would provide a few awkward situations of snowballing where some classes get more precision than others, thus increasing their crit damage more than others. Would be interesting though!

They already do. Some classes get more access to certain stats through traits than others. Been that way for years.

 

[Jski.6180]

This would only be ok if they let power dmg stand on its own and not foce power dmg players into building crits base. As things stand that not the way the game works so to play power dmg build you need crit % and crit dmg.

[sigmundf.7523]

On 1/22/2023 at 2:44 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Imagine you are a company.

The System you use is fine and brings in a profit every month.

Now some dude shows up and tells you your Company could increase in Profit with a System change.

Dude only tells you vague Ideas. He doesnt even provide the full scope of the changes himself.

It will now take hundreds of Workhours just to figure out a way to put his Ideas into a Working System.

And even more hundreds of Hours to actually build the System.

The Finetuning isnt even included yet.

And all that just because MAYBE it could bring in a bigger Profit.

It could also Fail so hard, it destroys your Company.🤷‍♂️


Do you take the risk?

Isn't this exactly what has been happening in the past few balance patches ? But instead some random dudes, its someone that works in ANET.
 

[Beddo.1907]

12 minutes ago, sigmundf.7523 said:

Isn't this exactly what has been happening in the past few balance patches ? But instead some random dudes, its someone that works in ANET.
 

I don't remember anything even close to that in the past few balance patches.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

28 minutes ago, sigmundf.7523 said:

Isn't this exactly what has been happening in the past few balance patches ? But instead some random dudes, its someone that works in ANET.
 

I'm sitting here, trying to decide, if it's worth the brainpower to figure out what you are even talking about. 

[zeyeti.8347]

We should all play minstrel stuff so nobody will ever die in the game , neither us , neither our targets , peace and poneys everywhere .... 🤮

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

48 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

We should all play minstrel stuff so nobody will ever die in the game , neither us , neither our targets , peace and poneys everywhere .... 🤮

 

Delete everything except Soldier Gear and Core Warrior.

You will never see a moe balance game.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

14 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Delete everything except Soldier Gear and Core Warrior.

You will never see a moe balance game.

PvP forum would still complain about warrior CC.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

PvP forum would still complain about warrior CC.

Warrior Trash? Nobody cares.

Warrior playable?  Get the Torches! We have a Forum to burn down!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Warrior Trash? Nobody cares.

Warrior playable?  Get the Torches! We have a Forum to burn down!

Sad but true.

[Jobber.6348]

I understand the logic but fundamentally it won't work.

If you push alot of Ferocity into traits, you risk buffing Condi with free Ferocity anyway, making the imbalance between damage types even higher.  In fact, it will make everyone slowly transition into hybrid builds with Vipers and picking up Ferocity traits as they can afford and just dish out chuckloads of damage compared to before. 

You want to balance Condi and Power? Rebalance Condi stats. 
Condition Damage - Damage scaling

Precision - Condition critting (yes, make Condi crit)

Expertise - Reworked to Condition crit scaling 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Sagedurk.7358]

And exactly how would it be easier to balance?

Power builds doesn't need to be "rebalanced".

 

Power Guardian can run full berserker stats and scholar runes and still crit cap, yet we benchmark at the best 36k/s

 

It's not about stats. Removing ferocity from gear won't achieve a single thing than to make power weaker. Anything you add on to solve the problem is something they could still have done instead of removing ferocity from gear. 

Put ferocity in traits? Why? Just to have the same number anyway?