Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Can we stop the cc spamming? (warriors)


Recommended Posts

37 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Considering if people want to actually cull the frequency of getting hammer CC'd, instead of outright just removing it but still rewarding the warrior for landing its skills. 

-Undo the 7 damage CC Philosophy for warrior giving hammer CCs damage but not over the top numbers like old bulls charge, just some respectable damage.  
-Fierce Blow, lower the damage coefficient on both the normal portion and against controlled foes and increase the CD (6s-8s),(considering this is where all the damage is basically loaded on hammer, spread it around to other skills)
-Hammer Smash (last hit on AA) - Reduces Hammer abilities by 1s for each foe hit( The target limit is 3, earthshaker is excluded)
-Increase the CDs (Unsplit it to match the PVE CD) of Staggering Blow(15s->20s), and Backbreaker(20s->25s)
-Staggering Blow - This skill does more damage to crippled foes
-Backbreaker - if the struck foe has the weakness or is controlled(CC'd) apply 20 Vulnerability in addition to its current effects. Remove the longer knockdown on weakened foes and keep it at 3s.

Basically changing it in this way no longer makes it entirely hinging on CC -> Fierce Blow chain to get anything done since hammer kit as a whole will do some damage and the changes and if someone is drowning in stability it isn't just immunity,  and Cooldowns brought up means a longer grace period to do something before you have the capability of eating a  stun lock that you made a mistake in getting caught in without any tools. People that have a ire towards CC is weird, CC is what nets kills on over confident/reckless plays, especially with all the mobility and get out of bad position skills in the game.
 

Counter proposal:

  • Fierce blow loses 20% of it's base damage and CD increases by 2s.
  • Staggering Blow now has a 0.25 coefficient, and deals 50% more damage per movement impairing condition on the target (0.625  max for those keeping score, but realistically only 0.375 coefficient, the first two hits of the AA chain are 0.6 for reference).
  • Backbreaker stays at 3s knockdown, gains 5s on it's CD, but deals 0.5 coefficient in damage base (again, less than an AA hit) and inflicts 10 vulnerability, double the stacks if they are weakened. Still recharges Fierce Blow if the target is weakened.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Counter proposal:

  • Fierce blow loses 20% of it's base damage and CD increases by 2s.
  • Staggering Blow now has a 0.25 coefficient, and deals 50% more damage per movement impairing condition on the target (0.625  max for those keeping score, but realistically only 0.375 coefficient, the first two hits of the AA chain are 0.6 for reference).
  • Backbreaker stays at 3s knockdown, gains 5s on it's CD, but deals 0.5 coefficient in damage base (again, less than an AA hit) and inflicts 10 vulnerability, double the stacks if they are weakened. Still recharges Fierce Blow if the target is weakened.

I dig it. Certainly a lot more refined suggestion, especially Backbreaker vulnerability being split between regular and meeting a condition(like Offhand mace 4). There's even more incentive now to take Merciless Hammer too if you want bigger Fierce Blow or generally meatier damage as well, at the cost of Resilient roll or Defy Pain. 

Originally I was going to also suggest maybe Staggering Blow should hit decently hard, but doesn't push unless foes have crippled, if we had to actually trim down a CC. But I also think that sorta effects PVE in some minor aspects and becomes a bit to unreliable to in a pvp/wvw environment if you need to CC. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Counter offer: Rifle and longbow skills gets refined to where warrior doesn't need to rely on pure melee builds to be viable.

This isn't be a counter offer.

It's something that is in dire need to be done, no matter what (if anything) is done to Hammer.

Edited by Fueki.4753
  • Thanks 1
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

I get that you're tired about Defense Spellbreaker abusing it, like its F1 resets. Don't say that it's a terribly designed weapon just because of Defense Spellbreaker abuse, warrior hammer is fine by itself and it's what it should be.

There is something as too much CC. If your gameplay pattern is spamming CC abilities until one of them connects, then you proceed to spam them for a literal endless loop of perma CC, then this is unhealthy design.

Endless loops which forbid your opponent to play the game are always unhealthy, for any type of game. Because it is removing the agency of your opponent completely, which makes a game straight up unenjoyable.

It's like having an endless aerial combo in a fighting game. Sure, there is counterplay (simply don't get launched into the air), but if you just fail this counterplay check one single time, you are done for and just lost the game by having to watch your health go down while not being allowed to do any other input in the game anymore. You are doomed to just watch, it stops being a game at that point.

Another example: endless card playing loops in virtual card games. Already encountered stuff like this myself in the game Legends of Runeterra. You create some setup and if it's completed, then you can spam cards endlessly without the enemy getting even a turn to play a card themselves. The game is not moving forward, you are not actually winning, you are just turning the game into "who of us will be bored first and just surrenders?".

Warrior hammer is the GW2 equivalent of this. Many CC skills and yeah, dodging these is counterplay. But if you ever fail to dodge just one single of these skills, you are done for, you are not going to stand up again until you are dead.

There is a difference between having several small CCs to land your damage, while giving the enemy opportunity to do something themselves between them, and warrior hammer keeping you CCed endlessly.

TL, DR: Warrior hammer is fine by design thematically, but the gameplay pattern is terrible and one of the worst designed weapons in the game. Entirely removing agency from your enemy should never be a go to gameplay pattern.

Edited by Kodama.6453
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

There is something as too much CC. If your gameplay pattern is spamming CC abilities until one of them connects, then you proceed to spam them for a literal endless loop of perma CC, then this is unhealthy design.

Endless loops which forbid your opponent to play the game are always unhealthy, for any type of game. Because it is removing the agency of your opponent completely, which makes a game straight up unenjoyable.

It's like having an endless aerial combo in a fighting game. Sure, there is counterplay (simply don't get launched into the air), but if you just fail this counterplay check one single time, you are done for and just lost the game by having to watch your health go down while not being allowed to do any other input in the game anymore. You are doomed to just watch, it stops being a game at that point.

Another example: endless card playing loops in virtual card games. Already encountered stuff like this myself in the game Legends of Runeterra. You create some setup and if it's completed, then you can spam cards endlessly without the enemy getting even a turn to play a card themselves. The game is not moving forward, you are not actually winning, you are just turning the game into "who of us will be bored first and just surrenders?".

Warrior hammer is the GW2 equivalent of this. Many CC skills and yeah, dodging these is counterplay. But if you ever fail to dodge just one single of these skills, you are done for, you are not going to stand up again until you are dead.

There is a difference between having several small CCs to land your damage, while giving the enemy opportunity to do something themselves between them, and warrior hammer keeping you CCed endlessly.

TL, DR: Warrior hammer is fine by design thematically, but the gameplay pattern is terrible and one of the worst designed weapons in the game. Entirely removing agency from your enemy should never be a go to gameplay pattern.

And yet it's countered completely by stability.

  • Like 2
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

This isn't be a counter offer.

It's something that is in dire need to be done, no matter what (if anything) is done to Hammer.

Both is good. 

Quote

Looks like somebody doesn't know about the mighty Gunzerker.

lol

lmao

I remember when a scrapper main was trying to sell gunzerker as viable and was like "if you build full glass and press all your utilities and the person doesn't dodge it kinda hurts!"

Quote

Counter proposal:

Fierce blow loses 20% of it's base damage and CD increases by 2s.

Staggering Blow now has a 0.25 coefficient, and deals 50% more damage per movement impairing condition on the target (0.625  max for those keeping score, but realistically only 0.375 coefficient, the first two hits of the AA chain are 0.6 for reference).

Backbreaker stays at 3s knockdown, gains 5s on it's CD, but deals 0.5 coefficient in damage base (again, less than an AA hit) and inflicts 10 vulnerability, double the stacks if they are weakened. Still recharges Fierce Blow if the target is weakened.

This is fine. Keep in mind that with more agency on the opponent you will have more opportunties to be blinded/dazed, so any damage that is dependent on the opponent having a pre-existing condition or status should be worth the cd it goes on. Fierce blow's damage is justified even now, but I'm okay with a minor cd increase on it when it's not being reset.

I wish more skills on warrior reset if prior ones hit. 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
Slightly less antagonism
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This is fine. Keep in mind that with more agency on the opponent you will have more opportunties to be blinded/dazed, so any damage that is dependent on the opponent having a pre-existing condition or status should be worth the cd it goes on. Fierce blow's damage is justified even now, but I'm okay with a minor cd increase on it when it's not being reset.

I wish more skills on warrior reset if prior ones hit. 

I know. Personally, I'm fine with keeping FB as is, but if SB and BB get even sub AA chain levels of damage added to them do you think this forum would even come close to being able to cope with it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/23/2023 at 8:23 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

If you don't want to be in the ground the whole time because you:

1.) failed to dodge the obvious windup from a class that needs to be near you to do anything

2.) Didn't have a button to correct your mistake

Then the obvious windup should just hit you for half your health.

Pick one. Either you get punished for not dodging and allowing a warrior to get in melee range of you by losing HP very fast, or you get punished for not dodging -and- not managing your stunbreaks by not being allowed to play the game. I prefer the latter personally, because it prevents people for making weasely claims that "X hits too hard" "y hits too hard" until they've essentially padded warrior interactions into uselessness, and instead focuses any of their complaints on their inability to dodge. 

 

Then get a unblockable fullcounter even if you're baiting them, 'cause there's a necro worm pets dealing hits no matter if u were dodging well and baiting fullcounters.

Then get permastunned by a perma cc class in a teamfight 'cause they have that broken comp (cata, hammer warrior, holo) spaming hammer cc, fullcounter, cata's blindness, holo beam, etc.  All with unblockable hard stun things; don't forget that high damage that they all could deal with basically no sacrifices. 

 

Sorry, but spellbreakers deserv a nerf. They should, or make full counter a one target skill (so, u don't get punished if u know how to bait him) and reduce his damage; or make them less enduring

 

Catalyst, Spellbreaker, Holosmith, Virtuoso, Untamed, etc. should be nerf next patch, sorry not sorry. 

Edited by ZolracAtrox.2908
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Counter proposal:

  • Fierce blow loses 20% of it's base damage and CD increases by 2s.
  • Staggering Blow now has a 0.25 coefficient, and deals 50% more damage per movement impairing condition on the target (0.625  max for those keeping score, but realistically only 0.375 coefficient, the first two hits of the AA chain are 0.6 for reference).
  • Backbreaker stays at 3s knockdown, gains 5s on it's CD, but deals 0.5 coefficient in damage base (again, less than an AA hit) and inflicts 10 vulnerability, double the stacks if they are weakened. Still recharges Fierce Blow if the target is weakened.

I disagree for a couple of reasons:

1) Nerfing FB's damage will just make it mandatory to take Merciless Hammer; that's not good for build diversity/viability.  If Hammer's damage is seen to be a problem, nerf MH instead but leave FB alone.  Honestly, when not running MH, FB's damage is good but not great, especially when considering the setup necessary to do said damage.

 

2) Hammer remains a CC spamming weapon, and we'll be right back here with people QQing over endless CC lock

 

3) putting damage on backbreaker does nothing to change the fact that it is perhaps the most difficult skill to land in the game and practically requires you to CC the target first before you attempt it.  It's just badly designed, and works only because you have so much CC on hammer that you have ample opportunities to set it up.

 

@Kodama.6453 is right; Hammer is a one-trick pony designed around not letting other people play the game.  This results in the reality that hammer is either a) nerfed to the point where it's unviable (as it was only a few months ago), or b) viable but completely obnoxious to play against.  There really isn't an in-between.

 

My recommendations:

1) Make Hammer 4 be a 2s channeled block with Staggering Blow as a flip-over skill (like Ranger's GS4). CD 20s.

The CC is still there, but it's harder to access because you have to block first.  Moreover, you will be less inclined to try to use it aggressively since it means blowing your defensive CD to do so.  In exchange, you gain some much-needed defensive utility on an otherwise defenseless weapon set.

 

2) Make Hammer 5 be a 600 range dash that damages (1.5 power coeff) and dazes (1.5s) foes along its path. CD 20s.

Gain mobility and more damage options.  Still a little bit of CC but doesn't stunlock.  Useful for gap closing, interrupting enemies, and baiting dodges to set up Earthshaker>>FB combos.  [Consider making it a 3s stun in PvE so hammer maintains its breakbar utility].

 

These changes would make hammer much more versatile (and potentially more dangerous) while reducing the CC-spam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I disagree for a couple of reasons:

1) Nerfing FB's damage will just make it mandatory to take Merciless Hammer; that's not good for build diversity/viability.  If Hammer's damage is seen to be a problem, nerf MH instead but leave FB alone.  Honestly, when not running MH, FB's damage is good but not great, especially when considering the setup necessary to do said damage.

I think you can take some from FB if it's being moved to SB and BB. The overall damage profile would be increased based on What I said, just not locked to one skill.

7 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

2) Hammer remains a CC spamming weapon, and we'll be right back here with people QQing over endless CC lock

The isn't a reason for it not to remain a CC weapon though. Reducing it's big CC from 4s to 3s helps address the CC lock without killing it's identity.

7 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

3) putting damage on backbreaker does nothing to change the fact that it is perhaps the most difficult skill to land in the game and practically requires you to CC the target first before you attempt it.  It's just badly designed, and works only because you have so much CC on hammer that you have ample opportunities to set it up.

No, but putting damage back on it makes it's difficulty to land worth it. 

7 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Kodama.6453 is right; Hammer is a one-trick pony designed around not letting other people play the game.  This results in the reality that hammer is either a) nerfed to the point where it's unviable (as it was only a few months ago), or b) viable but completely obnoxious to play against.  There really isn't an in-between.

Putting damage back in makes it less of a one-trick pony though. What made it unviable in the first place was the removal of damage. You can find a middle ground between it's CC and it's damage, and you start that by moving some of the damage from FB to SB and BB while removing the bonus CC duration on BB against weakened foes.

7 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

My recommendations:

1) Make Hammer 4 be a 2s channeled block with Staggering Blow as a flip-over skill (like Ranger's GS4). CD 20s.

The CC is still there, but it's harder to access because you have to block first.  Moreover, you will be less inclined to try to use it aggressively since it means blowing your defensive CD to do so.  In exchange, you gain some much-needed defensive utility on an otherwise defenseless weapon set.

I like this. One thing that Hammer lacks is some active defense.

7 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

2) Make Hammer 5 be a 600 range dash that damages (1.5 power coeff) and dazes (1.5s) foes along its path. CD 20s.

Gain mobility and more damage options.  Still a little bit of CC but doesn't stunlock.  Useful for gap closing, interrupting enemies, and baiting dodges to set up Earthshaker>>FB combos.  [Consider making it a 3s stun in PvE so hammer maintains its breakbar utility].

And how would a 600 range dash that has a 1.5s daze and a 1.5 coefficient be less of a problem for the other players than the current Hammer 5?

7 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

These changes would make hammer much more versatile (and potentially more dangerous) while reducing the CC-spam.

Your change to Staggering blow would make it more versatile, but the Hammer 5 option would cause more QQ, especially considering certain rune and sigil options. If that skill made it into the game the PvP split would have to be much lower than that, especially with a 1.5s daze.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ZolracAtrox.2908 said:

 

Then get a unblockable fullcounter even if you're baiting them, 'cause there's a necro worm pets dealing hits no matter if u were dodging well and baiting fullcounters.

Then get permastunned by a perma cc class in a teamfight 'cause they have that broken comp (cata, hammer warrior, holo) spaming hammer cc, fullcounter, cata's blindness, holo beam, etc.  All with unblockable hard stun things; don't forget that high damage that they all could deal with basically no sacrifices. 

 

The presence of a teammate doing something that makes it hard for you to deal with warrior isn't a justification for nerfing any class, especially warrior.

If you see a warrior on a point, are trying to avoid full counter or some other skill but your teammate doesn't avoid triggering it, the solution is to prepare for that eventuality as well instead of making the warrior accountable for your lack of synergy.

Imagine if they balanced raid mechanics like this. 

 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

The presence of a teammate doing something that makes it hard for you to deal with warrior isn't a justification for nerfing any class, especially warrior.

 

Oh totally it is; 'cause this is a 5 vs 5 gamemode. As well as in the past support firebrand was broken 'cause he made his team lit unkillable and got hard nerfed due to it.

 

But, even if we ignore that fact; spellbreaker stills overperforming, only below of catalyst, fighting agaisnt holo for the 2nd place of brokeness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, ZolracAtrox.2908 said:

Oh totally it is; 'cause this is a 5 vs 5 gamemode. As well as in the past support firebrand was broken 'cause he made his team lit unkillable and got hard nerfed due to it.

 

But, even if we ignore that fact; spellbreaker stills overperforming, only below of catalyst, fighting agaisnt holo for the 2nd place of brokeness.

 

Spellbreaker doesn't make its team unkillable. Try to get a handle on your vindictiveness instead of asking for a specific class to get nerfed because your teammates wurm minion makes it marginally harder to deal with.

 

It's overperforming largely because people don't dodge.  It should get full counter dialed back because there's some resistance synergies that enables node stalling, but all the reasons you voiced frustration about it will and should remain, even if it does.

 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Spellbreaker doesn't make its team unkillable. 

 

It's overperforming largely because people don't dodge.  It should get dialed back because there's some resistance synergies that make it obnoxious to 1v1, but all the reasons you voiced frustration about it will remain, even if it does.

 

This is the 3rd time that I read the "ppl just don't dodge" as argument haha; first one was on a cata nerf thread; and second one in an holo xD  And  I lost count of how many times I got called frustrated against X class.

 

Warrior is overperforming due to lots of cc, low effort damage, lots of endurance, a skill that was made for punish attacking people but actually punish in AoE.  But ok, let's ignore that last fact. It's caused by a synergi? Yeah.  Should it still be nerfed? pretty sure.

Edited by ZolracAtrox.2908
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, ZolracAtrox.2908 said:

This is the 3rd time that I read the "ppl just don't dodge" as argument haha; first one was on a cata nerf thread; and second one in an holo xD  And  I lost count of how many times I got called frustrated against X class.

 

Warrior is overperforming due to lots of cc, low effort damage, lots of endurance, a skill that was made for punish attacking people but actually punish in AoE.  But ok, let's ignore that last fact. It's caused by a synergi? Yeah.  Should it still be nerfed? pretty sure.

 

I'm so tired. You win. V:

  • Like 2
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think you can take some from FB if it's being moved to SB and BB. The overall damage profile would be increased based on What I said, just not locked to one skill.

The isn't a reason for it not to remain a CC weapon though. Reducing it's big CC from 4s to 3s helps address the CC lock without killing it's identity.

The chief complaint here isn't Hammer's damage, though; it's the CC lock.  Spreading the damage doesn't help with this.

Lowering the KD by 1s would help a little, but a healthier direction for the weapon would be to transition from "hammer is a CC weapon" to "Hammer is a weapon with CC."  This is especially the case with Warrior, which has the opportunity to bring so much other CC from other weapons and utilities.

 

Compare to Ranger; they are able to bring as much CC as warrior, but it is spread out over different pets, GS, LB, spike trap, etc.  Warrior can and should be able to bring lots of CC if desired, but it would be healthier if it were spread out over different sources...and individual weapons like hammer given additional utility to compensate.

 

Quote

No, but putting damage back on it makes it's difficulty to land worth it. 

Putting damage back in makes it less of a one-trick pony though. What made it unviable in the first place was the removal of damage. You can find a middle ground between it's CC and it's damage, and you start that by moving some of the damage from FB to SB and BB while removing the bonus CC duration on BB against weakened foes.

Adding an auto-attack's worth of damage is not going to make it worth it to try to land the clunkiest, hardest-to-land skill in the game.  Plus, as above, it does little to address the CC lock potential, which is the heart of what people are complaining about here in this thread.  We'd be right back here in 2 weeks with people complaining about the same things.

 

Quote

And how would a 600 range dash that has a 1.5s daze and a 1.5 coefficient be less of a problem for the other players than the current Hammer 5?

Your change to Staggering blow would make it more versatile, but the Hammer 5 option would cause more QQ, especially considering certain rune and sigil options. If that skill made it into the game the PvP split would have to be much lower than that, especially with a 1.5s daze.

 

Voracious Arc says hi.  If that skill can have a 1.0 coeff boosted to 2.0 with 10 blight, a daze, an evade, AND torment application, I'm really not seeing a problem with what I proposed.

 

And if the 1.5s daze is too much, then reduce it to 1s.  The point is to provide more utility and damage rather than raw CC and stunlock.  

 

And lets be real; people will QQ about anything that kills them.  But if they do QQ, it won't be because they have been locked out of playing the game by incessant CCs.  In exchange, Warrior gets a much more well-rounded hammer that is useful in a broader set of situations.  This is a win-win.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's that time again. Every so often people start to complain about warrior (because they are now functional again), they get nerfed and become unusable for a year or so. Happens like clockwork since the game was released. Hopefully, Anet does not listen to any of you about how to balance the game. 

Edited by Aza.2105
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/22/2023 at 6:15 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

Warrior is not even the worst in terms of CC, despite relying more on CC to do damage than any other profession.

On 1/22/2023 at 9:55 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Fun fact. Warrior is the class with the fourth most CCs. Not even in the top three, they just use what they have out of necessity.

Was this analysis posted somewhere before? Where are these claims coming from? Seems complicated.

Are you talking about the entirety of each class? Just meta specs? Factoring in duration of CC, cooldown, traits, hard vs soft CC etc?

Edited by bethekey.8314
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Voracious Arc says hi.  If that skill can have a 1.0 coeff boosted to 2.0 with 10 blight, a daze, an evade, AND torment application, I'm really not seeing a problem with what I proposed.

Or is that Voracious Arc that is a problem? But, hey I'm all for giving warrior some of the broken crap other classes get, but you know we'll end up back here dealing with the QQ.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

And if the 1.5s daze is too much, then reduce it to 1s.  The point is to provide more utility and damage rather than raw CC and stunlock.  

For that, if it is dazing along it's path I'd lower it to less than 1s.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

And lets be real; people will QQ about anything that kills them.  But if they do QQ, it won't be because they have been locked out of playing the game by incessant CCs.  In exchange, Warrior gets a much more well-rounded hammer that is useful in a broader set of situations.  This is a win-win.

True, I'll give you that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...