FA/Scepter Catalyst nerfs that will keep it strong but not "OP"/"Broken".

[Magizen.7842]

(PvP Balance) Cata Nerfs:

• Dragon Tooth: 15-20% damage nerf.
• Water Trident: Remove the 50% damage buff on chilled enemies but instead add a 25% additional healing and 5 stacks of vulnerability to chilled targets hit.
• Shatterstone: Increase chill duration from 2 to 3s.
• Blinding Flash: Change the ammo from 2 to 1.
• Rock Barrier: 10% damage nerf and completely remove barrier. (Arguably the most bloated skill on scepter.)
• Elemental Celerity (Cata elite): Cooldown goes from 60s to 75s; Cast time is increased from 1/4s to 1/2s. 

*I think this elite is arguably the strongest thing Catalyst has as a whole yet it has very little if not non-existent counter-play to it.

 

Do be reminded that the meta FA Cata build pre-patch was trash and had no place in either ranked or competitive matches as there was simply no reason to play it and it's really just the scepter buffs that made it too good combined with Focus. In my opinon, If an Ele build is running focus (or a defensive) off-hand it shouldn't be able to dish out "glass cannon" damage because it's really not a 'glass', only exception was FA weaver because that build commits nearly all their traits/utilities for more damage modifiers to achieve the "glass cannon" status it has.

 

This means to keep FA Cata strong without being "broken"/"OP" they would need to play dagger off-hand to keep up with the damage loss they had with these nerfs but this would open up more counter plays to the build and would certainly make the build much more skillful and justify the reward. Focus off-hand would still remain good but the damage would be a bit lacking despite running berserker but it makes up for it with its utilities (gale, comet, swirling winds) to remain useful in team fights in coordination with other DPS classes. 

 

The balance team has a history of nerfing overperforming builds to the ground that you don't see them again for months or even years to the point of destroying other future builds for that spec as well due to how 'x' was over nerfed. I think starting with nerfing or reverting some scepter changes would be a safe and good start.

Edited January 31 by Magizen.7842
To clarify it's for PvP

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

It's not cata nerf, it's elementalist nerfs you suggest.

[Fueki.4753]

Have you thought about mostly touching Catalyst, if you want to nerf Catalyst, instead of mostly touching Core Elementalist?

Edited January 31 by Fueki.4753

[Jski.6180]

In Spvp i hope you mean as its balanced in wvw and the last thing wvw needs is less dmg out put. Pve i am not so sure i think hammer is way better then scpter.

There is a lot of fear this is only going to lead to an over reaction and anet is known for blanket nerfs messing up game types that had nothing to do with the issues.

Also that mostly core ele nerfs so... maybe you just dislike ele?

[KingEsoteric.2067]

If you're trying to nerf Catalyst in sPvP, why are you taking down Weaver, Tempest, and Core Elementalist with it?

[Magizen.7842]

1 hour ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

It's not cata nerf, it's elementalist nerfs you suggest.

How so? 

Weaver doesn't get affected as much because they don't even double attune unless it's in Air.

Tempest doesn't run scepter ever and it simply has no reason to.

As for core... when was the last time core ele had a popular build anyway, this is a core issue that's true on all classes.

 

I think we can all agree Scepter was buffed, yes? Reverting or nerfing scepter this way (which would still be better than pre-patch btw.) is not meant to nerf all non-cata specs at all, especially because the issues with other specs isn't because scepter was underpowered it's that those specs (core ele, dps tempest, weaver) are underpowered or C-D tier classes to begin with!

 

Power creeping a single weapon just to make underperforming specs viable is not a solution. Besides, I think the elite nerf on Cata is bigger than most people would think, on top play that added 15s cd and cast time just means it's a bit more punishing now to just spam it every CD on fire (which what nearly all FA catas I see do). And nerfing Catalyst (as an elite spec) itself would actually throw DD Cata/Lrod Cata/Hammer Cata or future non-scepter cata builds potentially bad again when the issue was Scepter Cata.

[Magizen.7842]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Have you thought about mostly touching Catalyst, if you want to nerf Catalyst, instead of mostly touching Core Elementalist?

Yes by nerfing the elite and I also realized that Scepter is simply too power crept that it's inflating the true effectiveness of Catalyst. I think people's approach to this is too one dimensional, did people forget Cata has other builds that aren't even meta besides Hammer cata (which you only want 1 in your team or none at all because good players can counter it now)? So I think they should be careful nerfing Catalyst itself because this would literally only make the current or future C-B tier builds on Cata that are actually balanced become trash. I know it's easy to think this is a nerf to core, tempest, weaver but you would be relying on a premise that those classes were bad because scepter was bad which is simply not true.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

If Dragon's Tooth remains auto tracking, it's gonna need a lot more than a 20% dmg nerf, esp if it stays on an 8s CD. A 0.8--1.0 power coeff would be much more appropriate for something that requires you to spend a defensive CD or eat the damage.

 

IMO, they should have left DT as it was (drops in place) but decreased the time it spent hanging to 1.25s. That way, there's still plenty of counterplay but also plenty of opportunity to set it up with a CC or immob. A 2.0 coeff would be much more appropriate in that setting.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

4 hours ago, Magizen.7842 said:

How so? 

Weaver doesn't get affected as much because they don't even double attune unless it's in Air.

Tempest doesn't run scepter ever and it simply has no reason to.

As for core... when was the last time core ele had a popular build anyway, this is a core issue that's true on all classes.

 

Well I'm pretty sure #2 skills like Shatterstone, dragon's tooth, Rock Barrier don't need to double attune in single element.
Plus, a lot of FA weavers also play with unravel, particulary since Anet buffed water trident, dust devil, blinding flash ...

 

And fresh air tempest (or condi scepter) also exists. May be not in the same proportion, but nerfing core scepter skills won't really help in that way.

I'm not saying Scepter doesn't need an adjustment, but then call it "scepter nerfs", not "catalyst nerfs".

Edited January 31 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Jski.6180]

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

If Dragon's Tooth remains auto tracking, it's gonna need a lot more than a 20% dmg nerf, esp if it stays on an 8s CD. A 0.8--1.0 power coeff would be much more appropriate for something that requires you to spend a defensive CD or eat the damage.

 

IMO, they should have left DT as it was (drops in place) but decreased the time it spent hanging to 1.25s. That way, there's still plenty of counterplay but also plenty of opportunity to set it up with a CC or immob. A 2.0 coeff would be much more appropriate in that setting.

If you realty wanted to fix it you would just make it work like hammer 4 and have no delay. It was super buggy and very bad looking with its old use. We have an path of what it should be if you dont want it to track.

That the main point if you nerf scepter catalyes will only move to hammer and hammer in a lot of ways is stronger then scepter. All your realty suggesting is making bad builds of non catalyest scepter builds even worst.

[RazieL.5684]

On 1/31/2023 at 7:12 PM, Magizen.7842 said:

because this would literally only make the current or future C-B tier builds on Cata that are actually balanced become trash

finally reached to the conclusion folks... ele is only "balanced" if it's C tier... we have to make all ele C tier now...

 

meanwhile leap of faith

+ casually crits more than DT

+ HEALS 1k BASE PER TARGET HIT 5 TARGET CAP

+ is a gap closer

+ is a leap finisher

+ inflicts blind

 

at this point you are not even hiding that you just hate ele and want to see it bottom tier and nothing else... i am not saying scepter cata isn't actually good, it is good! but you just want to gut it!

[Kodama.6453]

13 hours ago, RazieL.5684 said:

finally reached to the conclusion folks... ele is only "balanced" if it's C tier... we have to make all ele C tier now...

 

meanwhile leap of faith

+ casually crits more than DT

+ HEALS 1k BASE PER TARGET HIT 5 TARGET CAP

+ is a gap closer

+ is a leap finisher

+ inflicts blind

 

at this point you are not even hiding that you just hate ele and want to see it bottom tier and nothing else... i am not saying scepter cata isn't actually good, it is good! but you just want to gut it!

What?

Leap of faith has a significantly smaller power coefficient in PvP than dragon's tooth (1,25 power coefficient for leap of faith, 2,0 power coefficient for dragon's tooth, which, btw, is generally the highest power coefficient a single hit in PvP can get with very rare exceptions).

If that hits harder than you with dragon's tooth, then you are doing something wrong.

You are also ignoring quite some other aspects here. Like that leap of faith has double the cooldown of dragon's tooth. Or that leap of faith has less range (600 vs 900 from dragon's tooth). Or that dragon's tooth is a ranged ability which you can fire and forget, meanwhile leap of faith is a leap towards the enemy. Sure, it can be beneficial as a gap closer, but it also means you commit to the thick of the fight.

And saying that cata is just "good" is an extreme understatement. When did you last saw a class getting stacked 5 times on a team and they actually won the tournament?

[Razor.6392]

90% of those changes are targeted at ele lmao

is it so hard to hit the auras / cata traits / spheres?

[RazieL.5684]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

What?

Leap of faith has a significantly smaller power coefficient in PvP than dragon's tooth (1,25 power coefficient for leap of faith, 2,0 power coefficient for dragon's tooth, which, btw, is generally the highest power coefficient a single hit in PvP can get with very rare exceptions).

If that hits harder than you with dragon's tooth, then you are doing something wrong.

You are also ignoring quite some other aspects here. Like that leap of faith has double the cooldown of dragon's tooth. Or that leap of faith has less range (600 vs 900 from dragon's tooth). Or that dragon's tooth is a ranged ability which you can fire and forget, meanwhile leap of faith is a leap towards the enemy. Sure, it can be beneficial as a gap closer, but it also means you commit to the thick of the fight.

And saying that cata is just "good" is an extreme understatement. When did you last saw a class getting stacked 5 times on a team and they actually won the tournament?

first of all leap of faith has 2.0 in pvp and wvw for a while now with no signs of that getting fixed any time soon or at all...

 

and you seem to miss the fact that as an engage it blinds which is also defensive and IT HEALS PER TARGET HIT so it is also a sustain... yes as a melee weapon the greatsword commits you to any fight but if you are going to compare that with the intention to just go in range to cast DT and then instantly leave that is simply laughable argument... you are also missing the fact that dragons tooth one of the if not THE easiest ability to dodge in the game and it only requires one dodge compared to stuff like smoke assault, unrelenting assault, eternity's requiem, rapid fire etc... 

 

I am making an "extreme understatement" as much as you are making a gross exaggeration... Also you are trying to nerf ele altogether while your issue is specifically FA cata in PVP!

 

Yeah there have been many cases where class stacking was an issue be it vindicators or mesmers... but you conveniently seem to forget that while in EU the cata team won, in US the cata team lost to spellbreakers, so... spellbreaker OP? but everyone is crying about cata and not a single word about spellbreaker cuz "it's only a problem when ele does it"...

 

"bring ele to C tier where it's balanced"

[RazieL.5684]

27 minutes ago, Razor.6392 said:

90% of those changes are targeted at ele lmao

is it so hard to hit the auras / cata traits / spheres?

it is hard because it takes some brain and not have childish tantrums "uuuh cata OP NERF ELE UAAAA!!"...

 

people are complaining that FA cata has both survivability and damage no wonder it destroys people when you have 5 burst classes stacked they will 1shot anyone ofc... but people instead of focusing on what matters they just want to nuke the class altogether because it's ele...

 

all they have to do is make it so that spheres don't give boons to anyone else but the ele themselves this way you remove the 30-60 sec stacking of all boons in the game making every ele fend for themselves... after that revert the chance to spectacular spheres that made you do reduced damage, make it so if you want to be a support ele and buff people around you you HAVE to get this trait so that spheres affect other people too and also you do like %20 reduced damage !!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!

 

this way you not only hit ONLY CATA instead of every ele spec, but you let them be the bursty class fresh air is supposed to be and you balance them by lowering their survivability by being supported by stacking the same class all the time

[Razor.6392]

5 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

it is hard because it takes some brain and not have childish tantrums "uuuh cata OP NERF ELE UAAAA!!"...

 

people are complaining that FA cata has both survivability and damage no wonder it destroys people when you have 5 burst classes stacked they will 1shot anyone ofc... but people instead of focusing on what matters they just want to nuke the class altogether because it's ele...

 

all they have to do is make it so that spheres don't give boons to anyone else but the ele themselves this way you remove the 30-60 sec stacking of all boons in the game making every ele fend for themselves... after that revert the chance to spectacular spheres that made you do reduced damage, make it so if you want to be a support ele and buff people around you you HAVE to get this trait so that spheres affect other people too and also you do like %20 reduced damage !!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IN sPVP ONLY!!!!!!!!

 

this way you not only hit ONLY CATA instead of every ele spec, but you let them be the bursty class fresh air is supposed to be and you balance them by lowering their survivability by being supported by stacking the same class all the time

Yeah, it's sad because we know that ANet will hit anything except cata itself. I'm sure obsidian flesh will be nerfed again, fresh air will get an ICD, phoenix damage will be lowered, dragon's tooth will get damage cut in half while burning gets 1 more stack for 2 more seconds.

Then catalyst will just pick up dagger and continue doing the same kitten LMAO.

The cycle never ends.

[Kodama.6453]

24 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

first of all leap of faith has 2.0 in pvp and wvw for a while now with no signs of that getting fixed any time soon or at all...

Fair enough, but that is obviously a bug and if you have to rely on bugs for your argument.... well, then it's a pretty bad argument.

[Jski.6180]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Fair enough, but that is obviously a bug and if you have to rely on bugs for your argument.... well, then it's a pretty bad argument.

The most of balancing in spvp and wvw are very much bugged based ele happens to have more then most. Sadly for the worst and not for the better. That or out dated effects with older balancing in mind. The current balancing IS what ele looks like with 2023 balancing. High skilled class tends to do high end effects if the player base is at the best then well more then likely its going to seems better then other classes.

The real issues and point of balancing for the ele class is the "lock out" of atuments after you swap out of them any thing that lets you jump back into thoughts atuments brakes that balancing. Fire atument skills should hit hard on the level of other classes "hit hard skills" much like leap of faith.

2 hours ago, Razor.6392 said:

Yeah, it's sad because we know that ANet will hit anything except cata itself. I'm sure obsidian flesh will be nerfed again, fresh air will get an ICD, phoenix damage will be lowered, dragon's tooth will get damage cut in half while burning gets 1 more stack for 2 more seconds.

Then catalyst will just pick up dagger and continue doing the same kitten LMAO.

The cycle never ends.

Hammer will be the wepon of chose its nearly as good if not better then scpter. There a complete lack of understanding of the issues of balancing.

Edited February 2 by Jski.6180

[RazieL.5684]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Fair enough, but that is obviously a bug and if you have to rely on bugs for your argument.... well, then it's a pretty bad argument.

i rely on reality not on fiction...

[Yasai.3549]

On 1/31/2023 at 9:52 PM, Magizen.7842 said:

• Dragon Tooth: 15-20% damage nerf.
• Water Trident: Remove the 50% damage buff on chilled enemies but instead add a 25% additional healing and 5 stacks of vulnerability to chilled targets hit.
• Shatterstone: Increase chill duration from 2 to 3s.
• Blinding Flash: Change the ammo from 2 to 1.
• Rock Barrier: 10% damage nerf and completely remove barrier. (Arguably the most bloated skill on scepter.)

What has core ever done to you...

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Just now, Yasai.3549 said:

What has core ever done to you...

Well, Catalyst is simply Elementalist + F5 + stuffed traits and nothing beyond that.

[Jski.6180]

9 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Well, Catalyst is simply Elementalist + F5 + stuffed traits and nothing beyond that.

They did remove the "cost" from running elite with eod it seems. At least for ele it must give up an trait line that is a big deal for the class over all.

[Magizen.7842]

16 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

What has core ever done to you...

I'll say it again because it's either people didn't read my replies or they just refuse to be objective and ignored it. Power creeping a single weapon (Scepter) is not a solution into making Core Ele, Weaver, Dps Tempest good! We're completely dependent on the logic that Scepter dictates how good these specializations are in its entirety, if you balance Scepter Catalyst that way you only create new/more problems that doesn't actually solve the fact that those classes were simply underperforming relative to EoD specs (which is an issue for nearly all classes including core).

 

BOTH Scepter and Catalyst requires a nerf, but I do think that Scepter is the much bigger culprit here over Catalyst. You don't want to stack DD Catas, Lrod Catas, Hammer Catas, or whatever non-scepter Cata build you have is probably not even meta or wanted in any competitive teams. Nerfing Catalyst itself just because Scepter is power crept would only make these existing build hopeless unless they make more changes to it that buff and nerf the spec simultaneously such as, buffing energy gain or reworking it but nerfing "Energized Elements" a trait Catalyst is extremely dependent due to how terrible base energy generation is.

 

On 2/2/2023 at 6:01 AM, RazieL.5684 said:

at this point you are not even hiding that you just hate ele and want to see it bottom tier and nothing else... i am not saying scepter cata isn't actually good, it is good! but you just want to gut it!

That's funny because I've started to main it since hammer Cata started and plan to keep playing it whatever the balance team does. If anything, I actually like Catalyst/Ele so much that I want them to nerf it in a way that it will actually make it skillful so that not everyone can just get on the train and literally be great at it within the first week of playing because it is so utterly broken for how easy it is.

 

On 2/1/2023 at 5:54 AM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I'm not saying Scepter doesn't need an adjustment, but then call it "scepter nerfs", not "catalyst nerfs".

You're right, that's what is written on the title "FA/Scepter Catalyst nerfs" because I do think BOTH Scepter and Catalyst are a problem but Scepter is the much bigger problem of this specific build over Catalyst itself. And again, Catalyst has other builds that are just 'ok' or middle-tier yet I hear some people more eager to nerf Cata more than Scepter which will only create newer problems that is overall worse for the class in the long term, so not only Core Ele, Weaver, Dps Tempest will remain mediocre but hey let's make Catalyst as bad as Core Ele too because Scepter is not the problem!

[Ragnarox.9601]

I like this changes, I would like to add vindicator gs5 mechanic to that DT so we can know when it will drop.

[Yasai.3549]

1 hour ago, Magizen.7842 said:

I'll say it again because it's either people didn't read my replies or they just refuse to be objective and ignored it. Power creeping a single weapon (Scepter) is not a solution into making Core Ele, Weaver, Dps Tempest good! We're completely dependent on the logic that Scepter dictates how good these specializations are in its entirety, if you balance Scepter Catalyst that way you only create new/more problems that doesn't actually solve the fact that those classes were simply underperforming relative to EoD specs (which is an issue for nearly all classes including core).

 

BOTH Scepter and Catalyst requires a nerf, but I do think that Scepter is the much bigger culprit here over Catalyst. You don't want to stack DD Catas, Lrod Catas, Hammer Catas, or whatever non-scepter Cata build you have is probably not even meta or wanted in any competitive teams. Nerfing Catalyst itself just because Scepter is power crept would only make these existing build hopeless unless they make more changes to it that buff and nerf the spec simultaneously such as, buffing energy gain or reworking it but nerfing "Energized Elements" a trait Catalyst is extremely dependent due to how terrible base energy generation is.

I don't buy this. Scepter is perfectly fine in the hands of Core Weaver and Tempest, but it only becomes an issue when Cata uses it somehow? So why target the non-factor when the problem is obviously Cata? 

Anet has done this, ALOT, in the past where they nerf core weapons, traits and skills, and sometimes overly so. Many old builds no longer exist because of this sort of balancing strategy to hammer everything but the problem case Espec down. Many playstyles just disappeared over the years because of this, and it's honestly sickening. Last thing I'll ever support is someone supporting a core nerf of any sort.