I wish there was a sector of New Kaineng that felt like Gladium Canton

[voltaicbore.8012]

During my most recent map completion, I actually stopped to take a closer look at each racial city, and my trip through the Black Citadel hit me like a pallet of bricks: Gladium Canton feels like the perfect basis of what "cyberpunk" could have looked like in GW2. We didn't need an entire city to look like it, but just a seedy, run-down sector of it would have gone a long way in selling an actual cyberpunk aesthetic.

Gladium Canton clearly lacks the "cyber" element of it, but aside from that it has a lot of the elements I think I was looking for in GW2's version of cyberpunk. Not everything is neatly built to a standard, but instead looks like it's been patched together out of necessity, poverty, and ingenuity. There's a low-level (but undeniable) feeling of claustrophobia. There's even a surprising amount of non-charr down there, including a human who's clearly lost his marbles. There are cubs running around, tattered fabric hanging from lines, dripping water, and a general balance of disrepair vs people making sure things stay patched together just enough to make it. The gap in the middle section runs all the way down to the ground to a pool of water complete with riveted pipes running up to the livable level. A continuous mist wafts up from there, which I feel only adds to the ambience.

It's also surprisingly colorful, despite simultaneously being dominated by the blue-gray metal hues. The clearly sylvari wall protrusions and the asura-themed market area are great examples of how you can change up the pallete in noticeable ways without overpowering the general dull metal look of the whole place.

I could go on, but the last thing I'll bring up about the Gladium Canton is that it captures the mild despair I find so important to these "__-punk" places in games/fiction. Sure, there's a lot of character and culture in such areas, but it's also hard to get by and it makes sense that ambitious young residents thirst for breaking out and living somewhere else.

I think something that felt like the above is what I was hoping for in EoD's version of cyberpunk. I never expected an entire city to look and feel this way, but I hoped for at least a seedy underbelly to a city in Cantha to have this feeling. New Kaineng is truly a lost opportunity - the modern high-rise city could have sat atop at least one "bad part of town" that all the "respectable" people tell you to avoid, and that "bad part of town" would of course be built a bit like the Gladium Canton.

The people who did the core cities... sometimes it's very obvious they knew how to do environmental storytelling.

Edited February 2, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012
typos

[Randulf.7614]

Very much in agreement with the core argument here.

Environmental and map storytelling has been poorly implemented for some time.
You can see it even in PoF Vs EoD. The story that follows the free city of Amnoon, through to the refugees, the awakened, into Jokos stronghold and then flipped brilliantly on its head by seeing a different perspective in Vabbi, is far better than the equivalent in Cantha with the brotherhood and other factions - which is messy and fractured and narratively incoherent in the way it flows at times - poss because the tried to throw in too many elements without thinking about how organic maps need to be. 

The core cities and the core maps all do map storytelling incredibly well. It was one of greatest strengths of the game. Now, that skill seems to be depleting and at an alarming rate.

[Ashantara.8731]

Just tear down the whole place and hire a new architect to have it rebuilt. 😉 The concept art they published pre-EoD release looks gritty and overall so much better than the actual thing. The color composition isn't very inspiring and assets are being re-used and sloppily placed.

While I can appreciate the idea of a vertical cyberpunk-y city (though I don't really need that sort of thing in GW2), the realization of the whole concept is quite disappoiting.

[voltaicbore.8012]

Just now, Ashantara.8731 said:

While I can appreciate the idea of a vertical cyberpunk-y city (though I don't really need that sort of thing in GW2), the realization of the whole concept is quite disappoiting.

Right? That's the amazing thing about Gladium Canton - it's just two levels (although the bottom one looks like it was abandoned by the devs in the push to release) and the central drop to the pool of water at the bottom isn't that far. You can also look up and see the open sky - but the view is just impeded by tarps and metal plates.

IMO the great thing about the Gladium Canton is that it demonstrates you don't need an entire city to look that way. In fact, having too much of it I think detracts from the effect, and contrasting a run-down "-punk" area against the shiny nice parts of town is important.

5 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

The core cities and the core maps all do map storytelling incredibly well. It was one of greatest strengths of the game. Now, that skill seems to be depleting and at an alarming rate.

Indeed. I would get done with map completions faster if I the cities didn't tempt me into exploration. Just in the Gladium Canton, I ran into the delusional human Al'Seen, who I'd forgotten about for years. I started talking to the other humans around the area, and for the first time found out one of the others (a guy named Donal) turned out to know Al'Seen's story (and has one of his own, too boot). The lines aren't voiced, it's all just the old text boxes. But just those few lines make all the difference.

I think a big part of it was that the original design folks didn't know (or have the time to leisurely find out) what bells and whistles they could squeeze out the engine. Instead, they were stuck on a "do less with more" mindset, and I think that worked out for the better. These days the design seems to be all about just pushing the technical envelope at the expense of creating actually engrossing environments.

[Randulf.7614]

They’ve also allowed the skyscale and trivial masteries (like the Jade tech) to dictate their world design instead of focusing on good maps or maps that work in harmony.

HoT works in total harmony with gliding because gliding allowed them to open up vertical real estate.

PoF works in total harmony with mounts because it allowed for bigger maps. The jackal was the only gimmick one and that barely affected anything.

EoD is trying to allow for skyscales so makes very weirdly places geographical locations and then starts shoving in zip wires and other bits and the result is a mess. Grothmar and to some extent Bjora, did not try to cater for skyscale and whilst Bjora has some very weird landscape placements, overall it works. Nothing in Cantha is working in harmony.

Cantha just doesn’t know what it wants to be at any given time. Everything is higgeldy piggeldy without much planning and forethought. Kaineng has the base ingredients, but does little with them- it’s fixable I firmly believe, but I bet the appetite for it doesn’t exist. Echovald had the potential to be a masterpiece of earthly, gothic design, but ends up bland, boring, bare bones of environmental storytelling, with no thought to event structure, narrative or mob placement. 
 

Between a forced catering for old masteries, shoving in new masteries for the sake of having them and designing around those and then rushing everything out the door because of a sudden change of plans re: expansion, we end up with what I feel to be something that no longer feels part of what makes GW2 so special.

Phew, I feel better now 😉

[voltaicbore.8012]

31 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Phew, I feel better now 😉

Heh well that makes one of us. This whole conversation, because of

31 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

it’s fixable I firmly believe, but I bet the appetite for it doesn’t exist.

being true, pains me. It really won't take a massive overhaul to address a number of issues, with perhaps the exception of Echovald.  I'd just be happy with a corner of Cobble Ward (specifically, the corner where Mai's apartment is) was reworked to reflect the Gladium Canton stuff I liked.

[cyberzombie.7348]

Considering that the whole city is high-rises, they could easily take inspiration from rl places like Kowloon in Hong Kong and 1980s Harlem, NYC with:

-Shady infrastructure

-Ruffians being actual street gang fractions instead of purist in disguise

-Getting pressed by said street gangs at night

-Brotherhood peddling shady tech with impunity

-Disgruntled workers that got replaced by jade tech

-Loitering drunks

-And even homeless shanty towns in Old Kaineng.

Idk how much more I could wish for without risk jacking up the age rating.

[voltaicbore.8012]

Yeah the (now gone) Kowloon Walled City is kind of the inspiration for most cyberpunk settings. Claustrophobic, ramshackle, has a life of its own, run by its own organized crime factions, and has a lively sort of poverty to it.

[Danikat.8537]

Isn't that Cobble Ward and Grub Lane - they're the poorer, more run down areas of New Kaineng which can't afford jade tech so they have to rely on what they can scavenge or make themselves. They're more open-plan than Gladium Canton, but there's still a noticeable difference in style between them and the rest of Kaineng and in how the residents talk and act.

[Mantis.6102]

I just started EoD a couple of weeks ago. When I got to the starter area, I really liked it. It had the feel of a well-developed area that was completely new to the game and really reminiscent of rural areas in asian countries that I've seen in movies and shows. I also appreciated that the starter area was fairly low on combat as it sort of gave a chance at a breather ( I played straight through HoT and PoF right before this). The introduction of fishing was a perfect compliment to this area. What I didn't enjoy too much were the Jade protocol things everywhere as they are totally useless when you first arrive, so it feels strange to have so many visual cues onscreen that are totally irrelevant; really distracting from the otherwise cool experience.

 

When I got to New Kaineng, at first I was enjoying it as it was again something new to the game. But I quickly started to notice how sterile everything is. I attribute the sterile feel to a lack of time spent on the visual design. This is not an environment that should feel sterile; there is a borderline civil war going on, huge growing pains regarding the jade tech boom, catastrophic power outages, etc. I may be wrong, but I feel a distinct BladeRunner (the original film) vibe to the area, but it has none of the filth and grit that BladeRunner did so well. Kaineng should have districts that are drowning in sewage and overflowing garbage. There should be a harsh gradient between the areas that economic classes reside in (they hint at financial class warfare with a throwaway comment about the jade bots being great if you can afford one, and then immediately some peon just gives you his jade bot for free).

 

I was able to forgive these issues just because I knew that there were rural maps outside of the city. But then I strayed into Old Kaineng to try and get the POIs, Vista, map completion stuff there. I didn't do a bunch of wiki reading about Kaineng (which you shouldn't have to do) so I had no idea that there was a JP there. I'm flying my skyscale around the ruins, which are actually kind of nice, and all of the sudden I am force dismounted. I thought one of the mobs might have had a powerful-enough ranged attack to one-shot my mount. So I continued exploring for a few minutes, but I kept getting dismounted. I asked in map chat what the mechanic was and that's when I found out there was a JP there. It's one thing to have the no-mount zones in the core JPs since they were implemented well before mounts, but at least there you get a message on screen about the no mount region (I'm not a huge fan of that, but it works). But in Kaineng there is no indicator that the laws of the game are being broken to protect the JP, so I found it really obnoxious and jarring. And then I tried to get out of the area since I was disgusted and kept running into invisible walls. Come on, we're still doing invisible walls? And not just at the edge of a zone, but right across the middle of it. It was kind of the last straw for me for Kaineng. I will finish the map and the story quests there, but what could have been a fun place to come back to over and over again is just not that. I can still go to Timberline Falls after 10 years and appreciate it, but I am done with Kaineng after a couple of weeks.

[Cuks.8241]

Vanilla game just have that attention to details that makes it come alive. And while hot maps are the best as far as pure maps design and jungle feeling goes and pof aint bad at all, vanilla has just so many details and features that are there just for the atmosphere. 

Eod yeah well. Seitung looks lovely from the starting area. Thats about it. I also still hope they just delete the jade batteries and protocols and we just pretend it never happened. 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

7 hours ago, Mantis.6102 said:

I just started EoD a couple of weeks ago. When I got to the starter area, I really liked it. It had the feel of a well-developed area that was completely new to the game and really reminiscent of rural areas in asian countries that I've seen in movies and shows. I also appreciated that the starter area was fairly low on combat as it sort of gave a chance at a breather ( I played straight through HoT and PoF right before this). The introduction of fishing was a perfect compliment to this area. What I didn't enjoy too much were the Jade protocol things everywhere as they are totally useless when you first arrive, so it feels strange to have so many visual cues onscreen that are totally irrelevant; really distracting from the otherwise cool experience.

 

When I got to New Kaineng, at first I was enjoying it as it was again something new to the game. But I quickly started to notice how sterile everything is. I attribute the sterile feel to a lack of time spent on the visual design. This is not an environment that should feel sterile; there is a borderline civil war going on, huge growing pains regarding the jade tech boom, catastrophic power outages, etc. I may be wrong, but I feel a distinct BladeRunner (the original film) vibe to the area, but it has none of the filth and grit that BladeRunner did so well. Kaineng should have districts that are drowning in sewage and overflowing garbage. There should be a harsh gradient between the areas that economic classes reside in (they hint at financial class warfare with a throwaway comment about the jade bots being great if you can afford one, and then immediately some peon just gives you his jade bot for free).

 

I was able to forgive these issues just because I knew that there were rural maps outside of the city. But then I strayed into Old Kaineng to try and get the POIs, Vista, map completion stuff there. I didn't do a bunch of wiki reading about Kaineng (which you shouldn't have to do) so I had no idea that there was a JP there. I'm flying my skyscale around the ruins, which are actually kind of nice, and all of the sudden I am force dismounted. I thought one of the mobs might have had a powerful-enough ranged attack to one-shot my mount. So I continued exploring for a few minutes, but I kept getting dismounted. I asked in map chat what the mechanic was and that's when I found out there was a JP there. It's one thing to have the no-mount zones in the core JPs since they were implemented well before mounts, but at least there you get a message on screen about the no mount region (I'm not a huge fan of that, but it works). But in Kaineng there is no indicator that the laws of the game are being broken to protect the JP, so I found it really obnoxious and jarring. And then I tried to get out of the area since I was disgusted and kept running into invisible walls. Come on, we're still doing invisible walls? And not just at the edge of a zone, but right across the middle of it. It was kind of the last straw for me for Kaineng. I will finish the map and the story quests there, but what could have been a fun place to come back to over and over again is just not that. I can still go to Timberline Falls after 10 years and appreciate it, but I am done with Kaineng after a couple of weeks.

 

Well. Sorry to hear about your experience there. I love NKC still though, but I love it for the fishing and the Leviathan event that occurs there over being in the actual city itself. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

12 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Isn't that Cobble Ward and Grub Lane - they're the poorer, more run down areas of New Kaineng which can't afford jade tech so they have to rely on what they can scavenge or make themselves. They're more open-plan than Gladium Canton, but there's still a noticeable difference in style between them and the rest of Kaineng and in how the residents talk and act.

Grub Lane honestly doesn't look or feel too bad, and that's why it requires NPCs to stand around complaining about how bad it is. Cobble Ward tries a bit harder with the whole "we don't get Jade Tech out here" angle, but there seems to be no functional difference, outside of the throwaway raptor activity for story/heart.

And you hit one of the most important missing elements as well, which is that those areas are both quite open. I think it's reasonable to argue that "___-punk" environments require a bit more density than either of those areas to really sell the aesthetic.

There's also the larger issue of the entirety of Kaineng feeling less alive, due to the effect of not having the right combination of NPC interactability, selective building interior access, or NPC density.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

As for this actual topic, I think my problem with NKC is not the fact it looks clean. I think the problem is the waterways, and it is too big and open.  Cyberpunk cities are supposed to feel cramped all the time, and with how NKC is it just doesn't work. If they would remove all the waterways and cut the city in half I think it would work better. Have alley ways that are completely covered up, or have some that just straight shoot up seeing the high rises above it would look a lot better and more cyberpunk.

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 minute ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

As for this actual topic, I think my problem with NKC is not the fact it looks clean. I think the problem is the waterways, and it is too big and open.  Cyberpunk cities are supposed to feel cramped all the time, and with how NKC is it just doesn't work. If they would remove all the waterways and cut the city in half I think it would work better. Have alley ways that are completely covered up, or have some that just straight shoot up seeing the high rises above it would look a lot better and more cyberpunk.

Yeah I think if I had to pick the one thing that I listed about Gladium Canton to implement into a proper cyberpunk district of NKC, it would be the cramped feeling. I think the rest of the city can keep its waterways - just cutting those waterways off from the far corner of Cobble Ward and really upping the cramped-ness (in the ways you described) would pull it off.

[cyberzombie.7348]

1 hour ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

As for this actual topic, I think my problem with NKC is not the fact it looks clean. I think the problem is the waterways, and it is too big and open.

Ohh, one idea that could compensate for that is to implement fog, considering the geography.

[Rumpus.1234]

I agree with a lot of this aesthetic thought about the city. The story of characters stuck between warring factions and powerful organizations is essentially cyberpunk, and that's on target for NKC. But even Mori Village in Echovald, with its ramshackle organic construction, feels more -punk than Cobble Ward. It's the perfect biopunk of Paolo Bacigalupi's "The Windup Girl", grown to fit by a population under siege.

Speaking of which, I expected more visible Risen attacks on the poor districts trapped between development and the vastness of Old Kaineng. And more authentic gang activity, as someone said above. Actual street level dudes must be furious about invasive paramilitary wearing their colors.

Lore (and map) does make it clear that NKC is a thin gloss on sinking ruins, a Potemkin village fueled by glowing canisters of dragon ooze. The technology isn't inherently harmful. But imagine those elegant self-powered prosthetics creating a dependent population of veterans. Or driving an addiction to replace, enable, and improve, to become more powerful in a city that has everyone under its thumb. Classic cyberpsychosis.

 

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, Rumpus.1234 said:

Lore (and map) does make it clear that NKC is a thin gloss on sinking ruins, a Potemkin village fueled by glowing canisters of dragon ooze. The technology isn't inherently harmful. But imagine those elegant self-powered prosthetics creating a dependent population of veterans. Or driving an addiction to replace, enable, and improve, to become more powerful in a city that has everyone under its thumb. Classic cyberpsychosis.

This. This is exactly why NKC feels like such a lost opportunity. It has, from a narrative perspective, all the makings of a rich -punk environment, especially with the Potemkin village angle to it all. The thin veneer of new, modern opulence that stands on, looks down on, but is also literally sustained by (in a very tenuous and fragile balance at that) an under-system that the snooty top-dwellers would rather not think about.

What we got was a hollow movie set. Just a facade with nothing inside/behind what you see on the surface.

I guess I'll just go hang out in the Gladium Canton more often.

[Batel.9206]

3 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

This. This is exactly why NKC feels like such a lost opportunity. It has, from a narrative perspective, all the makings of a rich -punk environment, especially with the Potemkin village angle to it all. The thin veneer of new, modern opulence that stands on, looks down on, but is also literally sustained by (in a very tenuous and fragile balance at that) an under-system that the snooty top-dwellers would rather not think about.

What we got was a hollow movie set. Just a facade with nothing inside/behind what you see on the surface.

I guess I'll just go hang out in the Gladium Canton more often.

Walking around NKC for the first time, without having done the story, I got the distinct impression that this was a classic cyberpunk dystopia. I loved it! I kept waiting to run into the gangs, the angry citizens living in squalor below the opulence, the Jade Bots' PSA messages edging ever-so-slightly into menacing "behave or else", fog and smoke and garbage in the claustrophobic lower levels...

...and never got it.

I can't shake the feeling that something's dreadfully wrong in that city. But without any actual evidence to back it up, it's just a feeling - maybe I'm wrong about it, just inventing things in headcanon out of what I think "should" be happening - and one that makes me avoid the place out of frustration. It's so empty and vapid, a puddle a mile wide and an inch deep.

[cyberzombie.7348]

On 2/2/2023 at 3:19 AM, Danikat.8537 said:

Isn't that Cobble Ward and Grub Lane - they're the poorer, more run down areas of New Kaineng which can't afford jade tech so they have to rely on what they can scavenge or make themselves. They're more open-plan than Gladium Canton, but there's still a noticeable difference in style between them and the rest of Kaineng and in how the residents talk and act.

True but in comparison, Gladium Canton feels closer to what someone would expect from a cyberpunk slum. Granted Grub Lane shows it's destitution, but the lack of grit and storytelling ruins the sales pitch. It also doesn't help that its right next to a power plant which should be ez money if they actually worked there. But it never explains the npcs' backgrounds, so I cant say fore sure whether they do.

It's a problem with the rest of NKC, a big city but with shallow worldbuilding and interactions.