ANet please nerf catalyst, don't kill core ele.

[Razor.6392]

In the off chance someone might read this, please nerf spheres, cata specific stuff, maybe some touch up on dragon's tooth, but do not nerf things that will affect other specs.

Fresh air is good, but has never been top tier except now (and that is thanks to catalyst - FA weaver, core or tempest are mid tiers in pvp at best).

At most undo some scepter buffs or tone them down, but don't change the core functionality of the FA gameplay otherwise it's a permanent uninstall for many! Break the cycle of kneejerk class-wide nerfs and for the one time address THE culprit: The catalyst spec and trait line.

 

[Kodama.6453]

Scepter definitely needs some tuning.

Catalyst might be the most overperforming spec on elementalist, but scepter buffs in general seem to have overshot the target. Some shaving here and there is justified, the weapon simply became too good with the latest changes.

But yeah, besides nerfing scepter some, Anet should probably focus on catalyst.

Edited February 2 by Kodama.6453

[solemn.9670]

"It's only bad when ele does it" intensifies

(But ya I agree)

[Kodama.6453]

8 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

"It's only bad when ele does it" intensifies

(But ya I agree)

Honestly, this "it's only bad when ele does it" is just propaganda. If you have been on the forum for a while, you know that people always complain about anything that is overperforming, not just ele. And fairly often we also see complaints about stuff that isn't even overperforming.

Nothing to do with it being ele or not.

[solemn.9670]

8 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Honestly, this "it's only bad when ele does it" is just propaganda. If you have been on the forum for a while, you know that people always complain about anything that is overperforming, not just ele. And fairly often we also see complaints about stuff that isn't even overperforming.

Nothing to do with it being ele or not.

Yeah but notice how all that stuff is still here? And has been for years? All the problem builds still exist.

But it's only bad when ele does it

 

[Kodama.6453]

27 minutes ago, solemn.9670 said:

Yeah but notice how all that stuff is still here? And has been for years? All the problem builds still exist.

But it's only bad when ele does it

 

Sorry, but that is simply not true.

Firebrand was problematic in PvP. Look at their performance now, the class is basically dead in that game mode.
Mirage was problematic in PvP. They got one of the harshest nerfs this game has ever seen.

Fact is that catalyst is overperforming by a large margin now. Seeing the same spec stacked 5 times and them winning mat is no joke. Nerfs are completely justified here, nothing to do with "just bad if ele does it". ANY class that overperforms to that extend will rightfully see nerfs.

[arduran.3820]

I for one can't wait to have every spec gutted while the mark gets missed on shaving catalyst down to normal SPvP/WvW roaming standards

A lot has been suggested but the one that vibes the most with me is tuning elemental celerity. I don't see scepter/focus weaver or scepter/focus tempest performing at nearly the same level as catalyst. EC seems to be what enables taking ele performance from "strong, but squishy" to "broken god emperor"

Jade Spheres + Spectacular Sphere could use some work in the pvp environment but I don't think combo fields or boons are the problem, it boils down to the elite. Combo fields alone don't make the spec broken, boons don't make the spec broken, even aura gen doesn't make the spec broken (see Tempest, it's strong but still has counters), being able to reset your CDs every minute in order to be able to chain together the survivability tools and the burst rotations is

Disclaimer: not plat or a regular participant in ATs

Edited February 2 by arduran.3820

[Infinity.2876]

pls don't nerf condi scepter weaver.

It's already barely fulfilling the cleanse threshold as is.

Edited February 2 by Infinity.2876

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@solemn.9670@Kodama.6453

 

Proving that people will argue over literally anything 😂

[Kodama.6453]

Just now, Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@solemn.9670@Kodama.6453

 

Proving that people will argue over literally anything 😂

I am just sick of this "it's only bad if ele does it" nonsense.

[apharma.3741]

4 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I am just sick of this "it's only bad if ele does it" nonsense.

Same but I learnt a long  time ago that most of the profession forums are echo chambers. If you're not asking for buffs you're basically a main of whatever people dislike and dismissed as knowing nothing.
I think people don't realise just how much scepter was buffed changing a lot of skills to 3 targets, adding damage to water trident, adding ammo and making Dragon's Tooth track the enemy on cast. Adding the extra barrier and blind in earth was icing on the cake too.
I hope they keep water trident and the target increases but tone down the damage, maybe remove the ammo and do something about fire autos, they're a little too faceroll on condi.
That's not to say catalyst also doesn't need touching either, the uptime of magnetic and shocking aura (if you want) is too much and getting stab on aura is too strong. I hate to see an ICD as tracking invisible timers is kinda lame and I'd hate to see shocking aura and magnetic aura go away like some ranger mains are asking for. I'd personally make the GM trait in catalyst decide which aura you get from elemental epitome then change the stab trait to trigger off something else.

[Serephen.3420]

For spvp alone I think it's tbe scepter focus combo as it's usually the strongest option for any ele spec not just cata. Scepter buff were great but probably needs a few adjustments. Core hasn't been taken into account for balancing since PoF I imagine. The only trouble with cata is the elite which outside of pvp is farely useless anyways. I knew it was a bad idea for a skill when I first saw it but nothing was done then. It only became noticeable when scepter got updated which means shows it's mostly the combo of those 2. 

The easiest fix which will unlikely be looked over is simply change the functionality of the elite skill. That would greatly reduce burst potential with scepter. 

[Jski.6180]

The way ppl talk they want it for all game types not just spvp and anet is very known for the bad ability to split nerfs between the game types.

So freash air alone is not the problems here but the ability for catalyst to get energy from swaps combos a bit too well letting them get much higher energy rates then say just an dps build. There was an issues with weaver when it first came out or maybe during one of the beatas where FA was letting air swap trigger off of both swaps.

Maybe there needs to be more energy gained per swap but have an icd. It would go a long way to cutting what catalysts gets over say an weaver or tempest (or the sad state core is in.)

The scepter argument is not an honest one the catalyses can play just as well with hammer. Its just an excuse of an argument (a lot of ppl dont like the ele class having skills that can track.)

Edited February 3 by Jski.6180

[Eekasqueak.7850]

7 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Same but I learnt a long  time ago that most of the profession forums are echo chambers. If you're not asking for buffs you're basically a main of whatever people dislike and dismissed as knowing nothing.
I think people don't realise just how much scepter was buffed changing a lot of skills to 3 targets, adding damage to water trident, adding ammo and making Dragon's Tooth track the enemy on cast. Adding the extra barrier and blind in earth was icing on the cake too.
I hope they keep water trident and the target increases but tone down the damage, maybe remove the ammo and do something about fire autos, they're a little too faceroll on condi.
That's not to say catalyst also doesn't need touching either, the uptime of magnetic and shocking aura (if you want) is too much and getting stab on aura is too strong. I hate to see an ICD as tracking invisible timers is kinda lame and I'd hate to see shocking aura and magnetic aura go away like some ranger mains are asking for. I'd personally make the GM trait in catalyst decide which aura you get from elemental epitome then change the stab trait to trigger off something else.

Every class subforum thinks their class is the weakest and most in need of buffs. 

[soulknight.9620]

And another one of these topics... Arent there enough of the same themed topics in ele/spvp/wvw subforums? We will get patch notes today, after that we can go with full feedback mode. I dont see any point in this topic since all of this has been discussed in other topics. 

[WaifuJanna.9108]

Don't Nerf Catalyst. Nerf the PVP Damage... Let Elementalist have fun in pve atleast..

[bluberblasen.9684]

Wait what?!

People want ele nerfed in wvw too?

 it's not op in wvw

[Kodama.6453]

12 minutes ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

Wait what?!

People want ele nerfed in wvw too?

 it's not op in wvw

Disagreed, roaming catalysts are absolutely nasty right now.

[RazieL.5684]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Disagreed, roaming catalysts are absolutely nasty right now.

so are mesmers, harbingers, thieves, vindicators, rangers, willbenders... cata is fine in wvw FA is actually mediocre even, since celestial exists in wvw and they can't 1shot people that easily and can't keep up with condi cleanses...

 

but hey gotta nerf ele at all costs... as we saw from the other thread ele should be in C tier where it's balanced...

[Kodama.6453]

4 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

so are mesmers, harbingers, thieves, vindicators, rangers, willbenders... cata is fine in wvw FA is actually mediocre even, since celestial exists in wvw and they can't 1shot people that easily and can't keep up with condi cleanses...

 

but hey gotta nerf ele at all costs... as we saw from the other thread ele should be in C tier where it's balanced...

Never said that it needs to be C tier, that's just victim complex at play now.

But I do think that catalysts are overperforming in WvW in roaming scenarios, that's all. Also never stated that any of the other classes you mentioned there would be fine, but go off, I guess?

[bluberblasen.9684]

22 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Disagreed, roaming catalysts are absolutely nasty right now.

As a duelist / roamer for more than 10 years on ele.. Can you say me what kind of over tuned catalyst is?

I have problems with thieves.. Because they can reset the fight like they want.

I have problems with the new guard because the can 2 shot me.. If I am not concentrated enough.. Or they can run away and reset fight.

I have problems with condi mesmers...

And I even can't kill some of reapers but they can kill me in seconds.

I can't kill any decent harbinger

And nowadays there is this immortal vindicator build...

I never could kill any kind of condition immobilize ranger / Droid.

 

Hard to kill are still engineers.. Any kind of them..

 

The one point I agree why elems / catas look strong is that they nowadays fight with range (900) instead of 240-300 range.

Normally you kite them.. Now they kite you.

 

+ there are very few elems players left on this game.. But the 2-5 elems players you see they are God players and elems players for years with passion.

 

[Kodama.6453]

17 minutes ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

I have problems with thieves.. Because they can reset the fight like they want.

Many other specs feel the same way with catalyst. It might not be on the level of thief, but the class has alot of mobility which they use to reset any fight that doesn't go the way they want to.

18 minutes ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

I have problems with the new guard because the can 2 shot me.. If I am not concentrated enough.. Or they can run away and reset fight.

I have seen catalysts outtank and outsustain 3 enemies at once.... if you get 2 shot, then maybe that is a build difference? Catalyst, if used correctly, definitely seems to be very durable. Especially with the elite skill that resets weapon skills, which can include invulnerabilities, blocks, blinds, etc.

I repeat: I am not saying that catalyst is the only overperforming thing in WvW. But to me it seems that it is one of the more overperforming specs right now while roaming.

21 minutes ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

Hard to kill are still engineers.. Any kind of them..

As a side note... any kind? I find that hard to believe that you struggle to kill mechanists, they are free fodder.

21 minutes ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

+ there are very few elems players left on this game.. But the 2-5 elems players you see they are God players and elems players for years with passion.

Seems we have very varying experiences when it comes to this game. I currently see catalysts all over the place while roaming in WvW, definitely not "very few". And usually if I see them, they need to get outnumbered to get taken down (both, if they are on my side or the enemy).

I don't know why elementalist players always have this mentality of "we are dying out, but all of us who play this class are absolute gods at the game". That comes off as a bit narcissistic, to be honest. Never admit that the class might be overperforming, it's just that everyone of us is a god among mortals.... sure.

[RazieL.5684]

58 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Never said that it needs to be C tier, that's just victim complex at play now.

But I do think that catalysts are overperforming in WvW in roaming scenarios, that's all. Also never stated that any of the other classes you mentioned there would be fine, but go off, I guess?

i never said YOU said it, i said that that was the conclusion from the other thread someone flat out said that the other ele specs are balanced, in c-b tier... so at this point the ele hate is just out there nobody is concerned about the game or balance they just hate ele and want to see it in C tier... and you, if you are not in every other class forum constantly crying about their OP specs like you do for cata then you are a hypocrite...

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

so at this point the ele hate is just out there nobody is concerned about the game or balance they just hate ele and want to see it in C tier...

.... you really don't see the victim complex here? You are literally saying you think everyone just hates elementalist because and is out to get the class killed.

Elementalist is overperforming in a format we haven't seen in a long while in this game now. That is objective reality. If the best way to play the game in PvP is to stack the same elite spec 5 times, that is an indicator of a huge balance problem.

Many people might be overzealous, I am not defending idiots who say stuff like "delete catalyst" or anything like that. But being concerned about catalyst is understandable, it needs to get brought down.

9 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

and you, if you are not in every other class forum constantly crying about their OP specs like you do for cata then you are a hypocrite...

Good thing that I am pretty active on other classes forums about their stuff I deem overpowered then. Just ask the rangers mains who hate my guts for bringing up that FF is the most grossly overpowered trait PvE has ever seen. Or the warrior mains I keep annoying with the fact that hammer is a badly designed weapon because a design premise should never be to not let the enemy player use any skills.

[apharma.3741]

I think to have a fruitful conversation about WvW roaming you need to set expectations and "win" conditions.
WB, Thief, Rangers specs bursting you and then running away and resetting if they fail is not new or exclusive to catalyst, many less mobile specs that rely on rune or swiftness with a max of 1 teleport or movement skill tend to suffer against these.

If you're having trouble dealing with condition mesmer in WvW as a catalyst though, that is 100% a you issue. With cleansing sigil, smothering auras and perma resolution from water the mesmer has more to worry about from you...you can also outrun the mesmer usually and a lot of other stuff on D/D or Sc/D.

56 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Good thing that I am pretty active on other classes forums about their stuff I deem overpowered then. Just ask the rangers mains who hate my guts for bringing up that FF is the most grossly overpowered trait PvE has ever seen. Or the warrior mains I keep annoying with the fact that hammer is a badly designed weapon because a design premise should never be to not let the enemy player use any skills.

LOL yeah, I tend to keep to the classes I play mostly and the amount of hate I got recently from mesmers for saying blurred inscriptions needs to go or that anything on mesmer is too strong was amazing.

Edited February 3 by apharma.3741
Adding Kodama's quote