Can Necro finally get a (real) support spec?

[TheJmandude.1548]

Don't say Scourge because we all know heal Scourge is a meme. With all the other classes getting support specs it's honestly time we get one in the form of Ritualist or another type of playstyle. For example, if we could get a spec that gives boons and heals by sucking the life force out of our enemies that'd be unique and thematic to the class, more so than Failbinger where even the elixir icons look like placeholders. Seriously, there's so much Anet could do with a Necro support spec, and it'd be nice to not have to gear up a whole new character in the event I need to heal.

[Infusion.7149]

? Scourge is definitely a hybrid support spec and it would actually be one of the stronger ones if it could output alac with big shade (Sand Savant) since plaguedoctor stats lose less than 10K DPS relative to condi DPS.
Harbinger is a quickness boon support.
The only thing that would happen is necro getting an alacrity support with a heal oriented weapon. I don't see how that is any different than barrier output on sand shades every ~6 seconds when you use Desert Empowerment.
 

You don't have an outline for a spec here so I don't know what the point is other than to complain there is no heal weapon? Lifesteal doesn't seem to be much different than what we have on dagger mainhand or on blood magic. Keep in mind lifesteal can't crit generally.

EDIT

Ideas to think about to get you started:

• What is the weapon you're proposing? Is it projectile or melee?
  ---> you are constrained by offhand axe , maces, swords (unlikely), shield , hammer, longbow (super unlikely), rifle , shortbow (also unlikely)
• What kind of traits does life steal entail that would set it apart from Blood Magic?
• How are you dealing with the shroud mechanic in a real encounter? If it's similar to harbinger it could work but clearly Death Shroud and Reaper Shroud bring massive amounts of variability.
• What kind of weapon damage coefficients or condition stacks are we talking about?
• What kind of cooldowns are the utilities using? Will they be ammo skills? Ranged/melee/PBAOE?
  ---> Note the skill type for another elite spec is typically an existing one
• Pick two necro traitlines and draft a real build with what you are proposing.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Infusion.7149
add possible weapons

[TheJmandude.1548]

12 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

? Scourge is definitely a hybrid support spec and it would actually be one of the stronger ones if it could output alac with big shade (Sand Savant) since plaguedoctor stats lose less than 10K DPS relative to condi DPS.
Harbinger is a quickness boon support.
The only thing that would happen is necro getting an alacrity support with a heal oriented weapon. I don't see how that is any different than barrier output on sand shades every ~6 seconds when you use Desert Empowerment.
 

You don't have an outline for a spec here so I don't know what the point is other than to complain there is no heal weapon? Lifesteal doesn't seem to be much different than what we have on dagger mainhand or on blood magic. Keep in mind lifesteal can't crit generally.

As it stands now, quickness and alacrity are highly sought after in groups. Scourge can't provide that and while Harbinger can, they don't have the heal output of more sought after specs like Tempest and Healbrand which can heal and provide one or both of those coveted boons.

 

EDIT: At this point we've seen so many ideas for ritualist like summoning spirits for offense/support/healing. Here's a link to one: 

At this stage in the game, every spec should be able to play power/condi/support in their own unique ways, so to do weird things like give is pew pew condi when we already had pocket sand condi is honestly bizarre.

Edited February 3, 2023 by TheJmandude.1548

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, TheJmandude.1548 said:

As it stands now, quickness and alacrity are highly sought after in groups. Scourge can't provide that and while Harbinger can, they don't have the heal output of more sought after specs like Tempest and Healbrand which can heal and provide one or both of those coveted boons.

You picked one of the worst examples...when is the last time you saw a tempest alac? Alac tempest can't heal as much as an aurashare tempest since heal on auras is mutually exclusive to alacrity (Lucid Singularity).

Its typically HB + HAM, druid if raids needing push or some druid specific thing such as immob. Renegade if you need massive CC on short cooldown (see fractals). Specter is rarely seen because it relies on well spam, alac chrono as well, alac mirage you typically see on SH or Matthias for reflect due to confusion.
 

EDIT: If you are talking about bad supports, I actually forgot about alac willbender.

EDIT 2: and you honestly linked a thread asking for a trident and a healing spec that relies on shroud to heal? Really...

Edited February 3, 2023 by Infusion.7149
forgot the disaster that is willbender

[TheJmandude.1548]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You picked one of the worst examples...when is the last time you saw a tempest alac? Alac tempest can't heal as much as an aurashare tempest since heal on auras is mutually exclusive to alacrity (Lucid Singularity).

Its typically HB + HAM, druid if raids needing push or some druid specific thing such as immob. Renegade if you need massive CC on short cooldown (see fractals). Specter is rarely seen because it relies on well spam, alac chrono as well, alac mirage you typically see on SH or Matthias for reflect due to confusion.
 

Regardless of whether alac temp is hard meta or not it's still more desirable than Scourge. When was the last time you saw support Scourge in group play? The only time it's useful is if your team is bad. Once they know what they're doing that sliver of a niche vanishes.

[Infusion.7149]

15 minutes ago, TheJmandude.1548 said:

Regardless of whether alac temp is hard meta or not it's still more desirable than Scourge. When was the last time you saw support Scourge in group play? The only time it's useful is if your team is bad. Once they know what they're doing that sliver of a niche vanishes.

Have you ever tried to heal on alac tempest? Hint: it's not a fun experience. Your only healing will be from soothing mist , "Wash the Pain Away", and weapon skills such as dagger cone of cold with a 2 second channel and long cooldown tidal surge / water globe. There's variants running arcane to trigger the heal and condi clear on dodge while camping water, it's that janky.

That is on top of alacrity application happening at the end of a 4 second long overload if your quickness died.

Scourge was run quite often whenever a new encounter was put out, in addition let's not forget the scourge stacking for 100CM. Granted, the barrier was justifiable reduced. You're implying that scourge needs to revive people to be useful when that isn't the case, in fact if you run blood magic (~33K vs 37K viper) it is far less of a DPS loss than using the plaguedoctor variant (was 27K vs 37K viper pre banners).

In real situations it is often superior to harbinger due to barrier output and condi clearing built into it.

That said, you haven't outlined anything for your proposed spec and are just piggybacking off a very bad proposal.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[TheJmandude.1548]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

Have you ever tried to heal on alac tempest? Hint: it's not a fun experience. Your only healing will be from soothing mist and weapon skills such as dagger cone of cold with a 2 second channel and long cooldown tidal surge / water globe.

That is on top of alacrity application happening at the end of a 4 second long overload if your quickness died.

Scourge was run quite often whenever a new encounter was put out, in addition let's not forget the scourge stacking for 100CM. Granted, the barrier was justifiable reduced. You're implying that scourge needs to revive people to be useful when that isn't the case, in fact if you run blood magic (~33K vs 37K viper) it is far less of a DPS loss than using the plaguedoctor variant (was 27K vs 37K viper pre banners).

In real situations it is often superior to harbinger due to barrier output and condi clearing built into it.

That said, you haven't outlined anything for your proposed spec and are just piggybacking off a very bad proposal.

You literally just mentioned Alac Willbender in bad faith when I already mentioned Healbrand. Also why tf do I even need to write up a thesis statement for what kind of spec I want when that's the devs' job? Show me one instance in this game where someone's suggestion was turned into a real spec.

Also I have healed on alac tempest and it's honestly not that bad, granted it was WvW.

[Infusion.7149]

14 hours ago, TheJmandude.1548 said:

You literally just mentioned Alac Willbender in bad faith when I already mentioned Healbrand. Also why tf do I even need to write up a thesis statement for what kind of spec I want when that's the devs' job? Show me one instance in this game where someone's suggestion was turned into a real spec.

Also I have healed on alac tempest and it's honestly not that bad, granted it was WvW.

If you healed on alac tempest in WVW then you are not even running the right build...

https://gw2mists.com/builds/elementalist/cleanse-tempest

I actually forgot about willbender and added it later because you are talking about another support spec which means it has to be alac since harbinger has quickness.

The reason why it is important to include details is because ANYONE can just complain but it takes a lot more effort to actually draft something remotely coherent and balanced.

In a PVE context there is only a limited number of ways they can apply boons short of copying the boons from the necro to the party. Necro wasn't designed to spit out boons at all, it is a debuff class even in GW1 (boon corrupt, hex). That is why elixirs were tacked on to give it boons, yet only quickness, fury, and might were focused on. Swiftness , regen, resolution (especially), and other such boons are an afterthought  which is why the pulsing quickness comes with fury. Essentially it replicates an "orders necro" from GW1 without life sacrifices.

Some of the warrior suggestions were actually implemented for the defense/tactics rework. Most of the feedback that is coherent is taken seriously if the source is reputable. Even something such as removing aegis from mantra of solace in PVE or barrier scaling on scourge so that the DPS variant is not gutted while keeping the barrier variant usable.

I'll draft something up for you so you have a basis to see what kind of things Arenanet looks for.

DRAFT ...
=============

GW1 tribute skills to think about if your idea is a ritualist with spirit focus:
* Ghostmirror Light - a straight heal with a bonus near a spirit
* Mend Body and Soul - a heal with condition removal
* Soothing Memories - heals (and grants energy in GW1) and provides life force
* Spirit Light - heals and sacrifices health (no life sacrifice if in range of spirits)
* Spirit Transfer - a heal that uses spirit health
* Spiritleech Aura - spirits have life stealing
* Wielder's Boon - a weak heal with a bonus if the user is under a weapon spell , for GW2 you can use "attacking" or something akin to that
* Spirit Shackles - actually a mesmer skill in GW1 that punishes energy so you could have a chill + cripple skill with immob
* Spirit Burn - damage and does burning if near spirit

See also GW1 builds with N/Rt

Spoiler

https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:N/Rt_Soul_Reaping_Healer
Mend Body & Soul , Spirit Light, and Life form the backbone of the build
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:N/Rt_Blood_is_Power_Healer_Hero
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:N/Rt_Soul_Reaping_Healer
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:N/Rt_Soul_Reaping_Healer_Hero

Example Traits that may need condensing together to make room for DPS traits:
* "Compassion" : spirit spawning or life sacrifice applies regeneration and healing in earshot (600 AOE) , similar to orders necro
* Dark Fury: party members gain fury when attacking (similar to GW1 Dark Fury gaining adrenaline on hit)
* (minor)  Order of Pain/ Spiritleech Aura: party members gain might when striking the target , copy might or fury gain while in shroud to play off of spite traitline allowing give a greater payoff and rampup
* Blood Renewal: alacrity application from chills, specific weapon skills, from using a skill type not shroud
* (trait name) : Dagger / Staff / new weapon has a small heal on auto attacks when traited to give weapon flexibility
* Awaken the blood: regen bonus , healing power bonus or outgoing healing modifier to differentiate from existing specs --- maybe minor heal on enter shroud instead of exit shroud
* Withering Aura: applies slow and weakness (this helps some specs and acts as damage mitigation) on certain skills as well as poison - this functions as a DPS trait
* Some kind of shroud modifiers that allow for added healing on life transfer (shroud 4) or other skills rather than just resurrection
* Death Shroud's Life Blast heals for small amount in AoE splash inline with staff on rev or ele (not druid staff) , Vampiric & Vampiric Presence boost trait (i.e. Vampiric Presence heals double from life steals for players not pets and applies bleeding maybe)
* Death Shroud #3 (Doom) trait that applies AoE stunbreak or resistance instead of fear on target , this is  balanced by the 20s cooldown
* Spirit Shackles : Tainted Shackles now ammo skill (druid immob is a requested feature in instanced content) could be a trait but given it isn't a game defining skill it would come with a DPS bonus to movement impaired targets through conditions or strike damage bonus
---> application of fear now applies resolution and short durtion resistance in an area around you could be an alternative especially for PVE
* Spirit Guided Pursuit : Dark Pursuit skill in death shroud becomes a life steal buff skill for allies (8s base cooldown) to allow for DPS boost ; probably needs to have ~20% DPS boost via 300 ferocity within 300 range always as I'd rather higher DPS outside of shroud
---> we want to focus on the shroud exit part of Soul Barbs
* Possibly bring back Foot in the Grave (stability entering shroud and break stun) but maybe have it AoE stunbreak in PvE differentiating from harbingers' Implacable foe
---> option to make the new trait extend stability duration to lower required boon duration and share stability you apply to yourself , allowing Well of Power to apply AoE stability but not AoE stunbreak
* skills that fear now knockback instead and do added defiance damage (300CC instead of 150)

Example weapon skills:
Mace
Mace 1 applies bleeding stacks /poison in a chain (see revenant mace but replace torment to differentiate from other necro specs such as scourge and harbinger)
Mace 2 does damage with poison and chill , and applies regen or barrier
Mace 3 applies CC in melee range and possibly burning

Shield
Shield 4: "Spirit Shield" applies protection and does either power or condition damage -- pairs with scepter , dagger mainhand or axe mainhand
Shield 5: a projectile block , heal, and resolution  condition conversions to boon with no damage applied
 

Spoiler

Hammer
Hammer 1 auto chain with power damage
Hammer 2 Damage with regen in AOE (see mechanist mace?)
Hammer 3 soft CC such as cripple or chill
Hammer 4 heal skill
Hammer 5 CC , usually knockdown

 Bow (longbow or shortbow)
(Unlikely weapon) Bow1 bleeding
Bow 2 poison
Bow 3 soft CC such as cripple and chill
Bow 4 "Spirit caller" applies AoE swiftness and regen
Bow 5 heal or resustain skill ... not much to differentiate from PVE staff probably

Utilities, with support focus obviously:
* (empty slot) Well of Blood is great already so the new heal skill should apply prot , life steal, or something of that sort. Barrier has already been done on scourge and regen on harbinger.
---> GW1 skills such as Recuperation (health gain) or Recovery (conditions last shorter so sort of like resolution) come to mind
---> Maybe AoE heal , clear damage conditions for 5 seconds then follow up with life force gain akin to AoE consume conditions. Apply bleeding if you cleared it to allow for blood is power , Dark Pact, & plaguelands to work.
* Soul Feast : healing is doubled if a corpse is nearby or a party member is downed/defeated , applies resolution and vigor --- ally targeted is healed more
* Protective Spirit?? (name used by old Firebrand skill so it needs to be something new) / Armor of Unfeeling: resistance application and protection on allies , removes weakness and vulnerability
* (empty slot)  : some sort of stunbreak to make it relevant outside PvE and lessen dependency on shroud for boons
* Flesh of my Flesh: ~30s-40s cooldown in PVE Elite that resurrects players and heals for a large amount otherwise if nobody is dead (see Druid/Tempest elites for inspiration , warrior battle standard, as well as guardian's signet of courage). The large heal makes it relevant in all scenarios. -- this fulfills the gap of having a big heal on scourge (there is a large barrier on Sand Flare if traited but that is about it)
---> Signet of Undeath has 75s cooldown

Common heal boons:

• Regen is covered by mark of blood and blood magic regen on dodge. New Compassion trait can be taken if necessary
• Alac from the new Blood Renewal trait as necessary
• available Fury from Dark Fury trait to reduce reliance on utilities
• Might from Blood is power, Well of Power, or new Order of Pain trait
• prot doesn't seem like a likely boon for necro but it is on Spectral Ring which does not have high uptime , it may need to come from a trait
• stability is available on scourge but it is unwieldy, more likely this spec gets a stunbreak for PVE only (old trait Foot in the Grave maybe)

Key tenets:

• PVE players play necro to have an easy time usually as opposed to playing piano and the build should be flexible enough to be either a DPS or a heal alac support.
• Because stacking is meta , it should be able to have maximum effectiveness in melee range but not be shoehorned into an area for a long time to apply boons (see original iteration of alac on chrono).
• Shroud dependency for boons should be minimized to differentiate from harbinger, core necro, and reaper. Pay homage to GW1 battery necros which had no shroud.
• Since harbinger and reaper want to stay in shroud for DPS we want to instead focus on dropping from shroud for utilities providing boons as well as for Life from Death in Blood Magic traitline
• To make it feel like a necro it should hinge on chill , power damage / bleeding / poison, fear, cripple, weakness. Have the interplay between alacrity and chill.
• If spirits are the new skill type have it play out the opposite of druid, where the main active effect is applied on cast as opposed to pulsing boons on cast. i.e. you use the skill (and alac trait applies it on spirit cast) and it acts similar to a combo field, rev legend, or well. Spirits will provide life force indirectly to remove signet of undeath reliance.

Flavor:
New spec will play like core necro using shroud momentarily when DPS is needed at range but with better weapon set for DPS or traits to augment core weapon DPS. New Spec will not have high mobility unlike harbinger but have greater healing output , protection output (a major omission on scourge), and omit barriers to abstain from creating a scourge copy. New Spec will utilize spirits in life force deprived situations to generate additional life force while also providing heals/boons.

Gameplay:

• Designed to be core necro-like with a slower pace and ranged abilities in shroud (the weapon doesn't need to be ranged since your life force does not drop outside of shroud).
• Healing will be primarily traited to avoid another scourge fiasco, hinging on blood magic mainly.
• Spirits will not passively spit out boons as on druid but instead hinge on providing life force making it much stronger in life force deprived instanced PvE (as opposed to places where many added mobs are existent).
• Deaths count for 10% life force currently so having low cooldown spirit skills that functionally give life force would help shroud uptime.

Draft build:
Blood Magic, Soul Reaping , (new spec name)
Staff + new weapon most likely (to gain actual healing and additional regen)
utility skills = #6 Well of Blood heal, #7 blood is power , #8 soul feast (heal + resolution/vigor),  #9 protective spirit??? / Armor of Unfeeling (Prot/resistance /stunbreak) , #0 Flesh of my Flesh (burst heal / res)utility swaps: swap #7 blood is power to well of power or swap#8 soul feast for heal with condition removal

* Might is shared in shroud if using Spite and if players attack the target (minor trait)
* Dark fury to share fury as needed (see Barrier Burst's reasoning on Mech , pulsing fury on harbinger shroud quickness application)
* Blood renewal trait for alacrity (chill is available on staff , shroud as well)
* regen bonus , noting that Blood Magic applies regen on dodges
* Soul reaping allows for life force generation from Eternal Life if running full heal stats
* from Blood magic heals are applied when leaving shroud making it optimal for instances where you need to heal up after receiving damage, transfusion (and new elite) is available to save people if Life Transfer (shroud 4) is not enough healing
* optional returned Foot in the Grave for added stunbreaks

Spoiler

Mechanist comparison:

• Applies alacrity, fury and might without severe utility dependence so that's covered even underwater.
• Heals and also res but no barriers to others
• Protection would likely be from the new weapon or protective spirit/armor of unfeeling
• Stunbreak instead of stability, no aegis --- this is fine for slothosor and Matthias for example (firebrand, chrono,warrior, quickness can provide stab/aegis and scrapper/herald have stab access)
• Easier to deal with conditions if you run well of power or unholy martyr in blood magic

Probable omissions:  aegis, stability unless Foot in the Grave returns, swiftness not from possible new weapon, resolution (replace this with condition clears)

Druid comparison:

• Might, fury, alac covered without utility skill use
• protection may require trait on new spec (stone spirit on druid)
• Swiftness omitted but note typically harbinger quickness ; herald quickness ; arcane catalyst apply swiftness
• No real knockback or push but maybe fear could be improved

More mobile due to how spirits will work

 

hybrid/ranged pDPS version? possibly alac power DPS since that's a lacking alac option across all specs:
Soul reaping (1-1-2), Spite (1-2-2), (new spec name)
* Utilities: #6 Signet of Vampirism , #7 signet of Spite will probably be run, #8 well of suffering, #9 flex slot (spectral grasp/well of darkness),  #0 elite flesh golem or Lich
* Staff or axe mainhand obviously unless new weapon is power damage based (harbinger is mostly run as condi so another strong power variant other than reaper is warranted)
* acts as might share due to minor trait
* alacrity is linked to chill so it remains flexible

condi alac:
curses, soul reaping, (new spec name)
* Scepter mainhand as always , possibly offhand dagger or focus  --- this would be more fitting if a mainhand condi mace was employed with a low cooldown chill application
* utilities: would probably be #7 Blood is Power , #8 protective spirit???/armor of unfeeling (stunbreak) , #9 CPC as needed for projectile block/epidemic , #0 Plaguelands/Flesh Golem
* Dark Path applies alac as well as Spinal Shivers , Spectral Grasp,, Deathly Swarm/Signet of Spite /Well of Darkness if using the blind > chill > alac loop
 

----
DPS reference points
Core power necro

Spoiler

 

Core condi necro

Spoiler

 

----
Do note spirits are terrible both in PVP/WVW (as is just about anything AI such as turrets, pets, mech, clones). Unless you can delink most of the spec from relying on them completely (see druid without spirits since its skill type is glyphs) then it is a pre-doomed spec.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Obtena.7952]

Apparently Necro has no support builds ... as long as you exclude 2 of the 3 specs for that to be true ... or label them as 'meme', which apparently means you can't play it. 

[TheJmandude.1548]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Apparently Necro has no support builds ... as long as you exclude 2 of the 3 specs for that to be true ... or label them as 'meme', which apparently means you can't play it. 

Well if you ever manage to get into a raid as a support necro without getting laughed at and insta kicked I'd love to see it. But sure, say I can't play a spec even though I highlighted that the lack of alacrity is why it's not desired in competent groups.

[Infusion.7149]

34 minutes ago, TheJmandude.1548 said:

Well if you ever manage to get into a raid as a support necro without getting laughed at and insta kicked I'd love to see it. But sure, say I can't play a spec even though I highlighted that the lack of alacrity is why it's not desired in competent groups.

People actively ask for Heal scourges on Boneskinner.

On Cold War if it is a Frozen Ground day you basically get free alacrity from converting chill.

To insinuate that you can't play scourge in raids is very misleading (the only place you would not is probably on Keep Construct and Conjured Amalgamate), I actually swapped off another DPS to condi scourge for a smoother clear when people were struggling with conditions. If you try to replace a heal mech however it isn't going to work because running straight healing stats rather than plaguedoctor or just using blood magic is a huge DPS loss and most groups aren't willing to give up hypothetical DPS unless you also are tanking, providing alac /quick. ~90% of the condi scourge DPS is from conditions unlike some other builds meaning so long as you run condition damage main stat and enough expertise to hit near 100% condition duration you are set.

• W1 VG - people are looking for condi for the red guardian and scourge barriers make it smoother , else you can play power quick harbinger to make use of +35% power DPS at VG
• W1 Gorseval - due to the ground pound attack lowering scholar uptime unless you have speedclear level players this is not going to be an issue whatsoever, epidemic also handles all the orbs and adds
• W1 Sabetha - scourge is excellent here unless you need to do a cannon due to condi rampup , epidemic clears all the bandits that pull you
• W2 Sloth  - scourge handles all the conditions and adds easily due to cleave , CPC negates projectiles
• W2 Matthias - scourge makes this easy mode due to condition conversion and barrier ... the only thing missing here is reflect (healbrand and mirage are typical)
• W3 KC - power fight, so play power quick harbinger or reaper to make use of +35% power bonus at KC
• W3 Xera - scourge is fine here due to cleave and ranged allowing for ranged crystal destruction
• W4 Cairn - if someone kicks you on this they are bad themselves honestly, scourge is even good on CM due to range as pulsing agony makes power builds worse
• W4 MO - if someone kicks you on this they are bad themselves honestly, epidemic helps with statues
• W4 Samarog - you want to play power quick harbinger or reaper for more CC and it is typically fast phases
• W4 Deimos - scourge is great here and you can take tears to help out your group
• W5 SH - Scourge is a strong pick due to condition conversion , epidemic is a requested skill
• W5 River - scourge is great here due to road having high pulsing damage
• W5 statues - scourge is great here
• W5 Dhuum - scourge is great here due to range and also the pulsing damage field in the room
• W6 CA - you want power damage and higher hard CC for adds, power quick harbinger or power reaper
• W6 TL - torment isnt strong here due to the movement of the two bosses but it is still usable
• W6 Q1 - Reaper is used for lamp duty, scourge handles the minibosses easily and allows for more leeway with conversion of burning to aegis
• W7 Adina - scourge works here but power is preferred if your group can burst high , can kite pillars
• W7 Sabir - scourge is fine here and so is harbinger really
• W7 QtP - scourge does pylon here so 100% incorrect to say scourge is laughed out of raids

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, TheJmandude.1548 said:

Well if you ever manage to get into a raid as a support necro without getting laughed at and insta kicked I'd love to see it. But sure, say I can't play a spec even though I highlighted that the lack of alacrity is why it's not desired in competent groups.

You must be new here. I do it all the time ... in competent groups as well ... because competent groups are also confident groups that understand that being successful is about knowing your build and the encounter, not what you play.

Again, this all depends how you play ... or in your case, how much you want to sensationalize the alternative facts that Necro doesn't have good support specs. 

Scourge: Not the love most people want, but the love most people need.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

6 hours ago, TheJmandude.1548 said:

Well if you ever manage to get into a raid as a support necro without getting laughed at and insta kicked I'd love to see it. But sure, say I can't play a spec even though I highlighted that the lack of alacrity is why it's not desired in competent groups.

Do you even raid? No, training runs does not count. 

[Uete.3805]

I do think there's room for the 4th necro elite spec to be focused on healing and alac. The ritualist option seems like a very good one (I want the Rit mechanics and theme back so badly)... except for lore reasons it might be unlikely.

Another good option would be a Vampire-like spec, using sword(s), deceptions as utilities and orders as the F mechanics. Basically those orders would provide the bulk of your support while consuming your life-force each time they are used by your allies:

• F2: Order of Pain - Adds extra hits to your allies and minion's attacks
• F3: Order of Apostasy - Adds boon rip to your allies attacks. If the enemy has no boons, cleanse a condition instead.
• F4: Order of the Vampire - Adds healing or life-steal to your allies' attacks.
• F5: Order of Undeath - Summons a minion per ally and redirects their incoming damage and conditions to that minion.

Your F1 may allow you to enter different shrouds (depending on GM traits) that use the same skills, but differ slightly in aesthetics and roles:

• Vampire Shroud: Turn into a score of bats (green Nightfury reskin ftw), increasing your life-steal/self-sustain within shroud
• Beast Shroud: Turn into a blood-thirsty wolf (red demonic wolf), increasing your damaging abilities within shroud
• Night Shroud: Turn into ghostly fog (teal vapor form), increasing your outgoing healing abilities within shroud

Yeah, I miss both Rit and Orders. I'm full on nostalgia xD

Edited February 4, 2023 by Uete.3805
Changed shroud names, 'cause the new ones sound cooler

[Uete.3805]

On 2/3/2023 at 6:16 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

If you healed on alac tempest in WVW then you are not even running the right build...

https://gw2mists.com/builds/elementalist/cleanse-tempest

I actually forgot about willbender and added it later because you are talking about another support spec which means it has to be alac since harbinger has quickness.

The reason why it is important to include details is because ANYONE can just complain but it takes a lot more effort to actually draft something remotely coherent and balanced.

In a PVE context there is only a limited number of ways they can apply boons short of copying the boons from the necro to the party. Necro wasn't designed to spit out boons at all, it is a debuff class even in GW1 (boon corrupt, hex). That is why elixirs were tacked on to give it boons, yet only quickness, fury, and might were focused on. Swiftness , regen, resolution (especially), and other such boons are an afterthought  which is why the pulsing quickness comes with fury. Essentially it replicates an "orders necro" from GW1 without life sacrifices.

Some of the warrior suggestions were actually implemented for the defense/tactics rework. Most of the feedback that is coherent is taken seriously if the source is reputable. Even something such as removing aegis from mantra of solace in PVE or barrier scaling on scourge so that the DPS variant is not gutted while keeping the barrier variant usable.

I'll draft something up for you so you have a basis to see what kind of things Arenanet looks for.

DRAFT ...
=============

GW1 tribute skills to think about if your idea is a ritualist with spirit focus:
* Ghostmirror Light - a straight heal with a bonus near a spirit
* Mend Body and Soul - a heal with condition removal
* Soothing Memories - heals (and grants energy in GW1) and provides life force
* Spirit Light - heals and sacrifices health (no life sacrifice if in range of spirits)
* Spirit Transfer - a heal that uses spirit health
* Spiritleech Aura - spirits have life stealing
* Wielder's Boon - a weak heal with a bonus if the user is under a weapon spell , for GW2 you can use "attacking" or something akin to that
* Spirit Shackles - actually a mesmer skill in GW1 that punishes energy so you could have a chill + cripple skill with immob
* Spirit Burn - damage and does burning if near spirit

See also GW1 builds with N/Rt

  Hide contents

https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:N/Rt_Soul_Reaping_Healer
Mend Body & Soul , Spirit Light, and Life form the backbone of the build
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:N/Rt_Blood_is_Power_Healer_Hero
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:N/Rt_Soul_Reaping_Healer
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:N/Rt_Soul_Reaping_Healer_Hero

Example Traits that may need condensing together to make room for DPS traits:
* "Compassion" : spirit spawning or life sacrifice applies regeneration and healing in earshot (600 AOE) , similar to orders necro
* Dark Fury: party members gain fury when attacking (similar to GW1 Dark Fury gaining adrenaline on hit)
* (minor)  Order of Pain/ Spiritleech Aura: party members gain might when striking the target , copy might or fury gain while in shroud to play off of spite traitline allowing give a greater payoff and rampup
* Blood Renewal: alacrity application from chills, specific weapon skills, from using a skill type not shroud
* (trait name) : Dagger / Staff / new weapon has a small heal on auto attacks when traited to give weapon flexibility
* Awaken the blood: regen bonus , healing power bonus or outgoing healing modifier to differentiate from existing specs --- maybe minor heal on enter shroud instead of exit shroud
* Withering Aura: applies slow and weakness (this helps some specs and acts as damage mitigation) on certain skills as well as poison - this functions as a DPS trait
* Some kind of shroud modifiers that allow for added healing on life transfer (shroud 4) or other skills rather than just resurrection
* Death Shroud's Life Blast heals for small amount in AoE splash inline with staff on rev or ele (not druid staff) , Vampiric & Vampiric Presence boost trait (i.e. Vampiric Presence heals double from life steals for players not pets and applies bleeding maybe)
* Death Shroud #3 (Doom) trait that applies AoE stunbreak or resistance instead of fear on target , this is  balanced by the 20s cooldown
* Spirit Shackles : Tainted Shackles now ammo skill (druid immob is a requested feature in instanced content) could be a trait but given it isn't a game defining skill it would come with a DPS bonus to movement impaired targets through conditions or strike damage bonus
---> application of fear now applies resolution and short durtion resistance in an area around you could be an alternative especially for PVE
* Spirit Guided Pursuit : Dark Pursuit skill in death shroud becomes a life steal buff skill for allies (8s base cooldown) to allow for DPS boost ; probably needs to have ~20% DPS boost via 300 ferocity within 300 range always as I'd rather higher DPS outside of shroud
---> we want to focus on the shroud exit part of Soul Barbs
* Possibly bring back Foot in the Grave (stability entering shroud and break stun) but maybe have it AoE stunbreak in PvE differentiating from harbingers' Implacable foe
---> option to make the new trait extend stability duration to lower required boon duration and share stability you apply to yourself , allowing Well of Power to apply AoE stability but not AoE stunbreak
* skills that fear now knockback instead and do added defiance damage (300CC instead of 150)

Example weapon skills:
Mace
Mace 1 applies bleeding stacks /poison in a chain (see revenant mace but replace torment to differentiate from other necro specs such as scourge and harbinger)
Mace 2 does damage with poison and chill , and applies regen or barrier
Mace 3 applies CC in melee range and possibly burning

Shield
Shield 4: "Spirit Shield" applies protection and does either power or condition damage -- pairs with scepter , dagger mainhand or axe mainhand
Shield 5: a projectile block , heal, and resolution  condition conversions to boon with no damage applied
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Hammer
Hammer 1 auto chain with power damage
Hammer 2 Damage with regen in AOE (see mechanist mace?)
Hammer 3 soft CC such as cripple or chill
Hammer 4 heal skill
Hammer 5 CC , usually knockdown

 Bow (longbow or shortbow)
(Unlikely weapon) Bow1 bleeding
Bow 2 poison
Bow 3 soft CC such as cripple and chill
Bow 4 "Spirit caller" applies AoE swiftness and regen
Bow 5 heal or resustain skill ... not much to differentiate from PVE staff probably

Utilities, with support focus obviously:
* (empty slot) Well of Blood is great already so the new heal skill should apply prot , life steal, or something of that sort. Barrier has already been done on scourge and regen on harbinger.
---> GW1 skills such as Recuperation (health gain) or Recovery (conditions last shorter so sort of like resolution) come to mind
---> Maybe AoE heal , clear damage conditions for 5 seconds then follow up with life force gain akin to AoE consume conditions. Apply bleeding if you cleared it to allow for blood is power , Dark Pact, & plaguelands to work.
* Soul Feast : healing is doubled if a corpse is nearby or a party member is downed/defeated , applies resolution and vigor --- ally targeted is healed more
* Protective Spirit?? (name used by old Firebrand skill so it needs to be something new) / Armor of Unfeeling: resistance application and protection on allies , removes weakness and vulnerability
* (empty slot)  : some sort of stunbreak to make it relevant outside PvE and lessen dependency on shroud for boons
* Flesh of my Flesh: ~30s-40s cooldown in PVE Elite that resurrects players and heals for a large amount otherwise if nobody is dead (see Druid/Tempest elites for inspiration , warrior battle standard, as well as guardian's signet of courage). The large heal makes it relevant in all scenarios. -- this fulfills the gap of having a big heal on scourge (there is a large barrier on Sand Flare if traited but that is about it)
---> Signet of Undeath has 75s cooldown

Common heal boons:

• Regen is covered by mark of blood and blood magic regen on dodge. New Compassion trait can be taken if necessary
• Alac from the new Blood Renewal trait as necessary
• available Fury from Dark Fury trait to reduce reliance on utilities
• Might from Blood is power, Well of Power, or new Order of Pain trait
• prot doesn't seem like a likely boon for necro but it is on Spectral Ring which does not have high uptime , it may need to come from a trait
• stability is available on scourge but it is unwieldy, more likely this spec gets a stunbreak for PVE only (old trait Foot in the Grave maybe)

Key tenets:

• PVE players play necro to have an easy time usually as opposed to playing piano and the build should be flexible enough to be either a DPS or a heal alac support.
• Because stacking is meta , it should be able to have maximum effectiveness in melee range but not be shoehorned into an area for a long time to apply boons (see original iteration of alac on chrono).
• Shroud dependency for boons should be minimized to differentiate from harbinger, core necro, and reaper. Pay homage to GW1 battery necros which had no shroud.
• Since harbinger and reaper want to stay in shroud for DPS we want to instead focus on dropping from shroud for utilities providing boons as well as for Life from Death in Blood Magic traitline
• To make it feel like a necro it should hinge on chill , power damage / bleeding / poison, fear, cripple, weakness. Have the interplay between alacrity and chill.
• If spirits are the new skill type have it play out the opposite of druid, where the main active effect is applied on cast as opposed to pulsing boons on cast. i.e. you use the skill (and alac trait applies it on spirit cast) and it acts similar to a combo field, rev legend, or well. Spirits will provide life force indirectly to remove signet of undeath reliance.

Flavor:
New spec will play like core necro using shroud momentarily when DPS is needed at range but with better weapon set for DPS or traits to augment core weapon DPS. New Spec will not have high mobility unlike harbinger but have greater healing output , protection output (a major omission on scourge), and omit barriers to abstain from creating a scourge copy. New Spec will utilize spirits in life force deprived situations to generate additional life force while also providing heals/boons.

Gameplay:

• Designed to be core necro-like with a slower pace and ranged abilities in shroud (the weapon doesn't need to be ranged since your life force does not drop outside of shroud).
• Healing will be primarily traited to avoid another scourge fiasco, hinging on blood magic mainly.
• Spirits will not passively spit out boons as on druid but instead hinge on providing life force making it much stronger in life force deprived instanced PvE (as opposed to places where many added mobs are existent).
• Deaths count for 10% life force currently so having low cooldown spirit skills that functionally give life force would help shroud uptime.

Draft build:
Blood Magic, Soul Reaping , (new spec name)
Staff + new weapon most likely (to gain actual healing and additional regen)
utility skills = #6 Well of Blood heal, #7 blood is power , #8 soul feast (heal + resolution/vigor),  #9 protective spirit??? / Armor of Unfeeling (Prot/resistance /stunbreak) , #0 Flesh of my Flesh (burst heal / res)utility swaps: swap #7 blood is power to well of power or swap#8 soul feast for heal with condition removal

* Might is shared in shroud if using Spite and if players attack the target (minor trait)
* Dark fury to share fury as needed (see Barrier Burst's reasoning on Mech , pulsing fury on harbinger shroud quickness application)
* Blood renewal trait for alacrity (chill is available on staff , shroud as well)
* regen bonus , noting that Blood Magic applies regen on dodges
* Soul reaping allows for life force generation from Eternal Life if running full heal stats
* from Blood magic heals are applied when leaving shroud making it optimal for instances where you need to heal up after receiving damage, transfusion (and new elite) is available to save people if Life Transfer (shroud 4) is not enough healing
* optional returned Foot in the Grave for added stunbreaks

  Reveal hidden contents

Mechanist comparison:

• Applies alacrity, fury and might without severe utility dependence so that's covered even underwater.
• Heals and also res but no barriers to others
• Protection would likely be from the new weapon or protective spirit/armor of unfeeling
• Stunbreak instead of stability, no aegis --- this is fine for slothosor and Matthias for example (firebrand, chrono,warrior, quickness can provide stab/aegis and scrapper/herald have stab access)
• Easier to deal with conditions if you run well of power or unholy martyr in blood magic

Probable omissions:  aegis, stability unless Foot in the Grave returns, swiftness not from possible new weapon, resolution (replace this with condition clears)

Druid comparison:

• Might, fury, alac covered without utility skill use
• protection may require trait on new spec (stone spirit on druid)
• Swiftness omitted but note typically harbinger quickness ; herald quickness ; arcane catalyst apply swiftness
• No real knockback or push but maybe fear could be improved

More mobile due to how spirits will work

 

hybrid/ranged pDPS version? possibly alac power DPS since that's a lacking alac option across all specs:
Soul reaping (1-1-2), Spite (1-2-2), (new spec name)
* Utilities: #6 Signet of Vampirism , #7 signet of Spite will probably be run, #8 well of suffering, #9 flex slot (spectral grasp/well of darkness),  #0 elite flesh golem or Lich
* Staff or axe mainhand obviously unless new weapon is power damage based (harbinger is mostly run as condi so another strong power variant other than reaper is warranted)
* acts as might share due to minor trait
* alacrity is linked to chill so it remains flexible

condi alac:
curses, soul reaping, (new spec name)
* Scepter mainhand as always , possibly offhand dagger or focus  --- this would be more fitting if a mainhand condi mace was employed with a low cooldown chill application
* utilities: would probably be #7 Blood is Power , #8 protective spirit???/armor of unfeeling (stunbreak) , #9 CPC as needed for projectile block/epidemic , #0 Plaguelands/Flesh Golem
* Dark Path applies alac as well as Spinal Shivers , Spectral Grasp,, Deathly Swarm/Signet of Spite /Well of Darkness if using the blind > chill > alac loop
 

----
DPS reference points
Core power necro

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Core condi necro

  Reveal hidden contents

 

----
Do note spirits are terrible both in PVP/WVW (as is just about anything AI such as turrets, pets, mech, clones). Unless you can delink most of the spec from relying on them completely (see druid without spirits since its skill type is glyphs) then it is a pre-doomed spec.

Wow, that was quite a lot of thought you put in there. Thank you for that! I also liked how you thought of the different way it would fit with the current necro options. I might try to do that the next time I think of a possible spec. ^^

[Infusion.7149]

8 hours ago, Uete.3805 said:

Wow, that was quite a lot of thought you put in there. Thank you for that! I also liked how you thought of the different way it would fit with the current necro options. I might try to do that the next time I think of a possible spec. ^^

I tried to make this thread constructive, there's too many poor written takes on the forum.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Harb can output perma quickness + fury + might (blood is power + elixir, requires high boon duration, but it's very possible).
Not to mention cope elixir that basically gives full boon coverage for burst phase.
Looks pretty supportive to me, boon wise.

Meanwhile Scourge may seem dull for having next to no high value boons, his barriers are still the strongest of all professions with best healing power scaling and regular healers got nothing on his ability to ress downed allies.

[Aktium.9506]

Remove Feed from Corruption and replace it with a trait that gives Alacrity on F-skill use or Barrier application.

Revert Abrasive Grit so that it gives Might again.

 

[Erick Alastor.3917]

If we won't get any new elite specs in the future, scourge should def be rebalanced as an alac-healer.

[draxynnic.3719]

Ah, yes, scourge is a meme. It's such a meme that Teapot gave it its own tier in a PvE tierlist. Above S.

More seriously, though, I'd be onboard for alac ritualist necro. Or alac orders necro.

As an observation, I really disagree with the idea that making a proposal must come with a detailed description of how it would work down to individual skills, traits, or even weapon. ArenaNet has shown that they're not only capable of coming up with their own ideas of how to implement a concept, they prefer to, for better or worse. Unless the person making a proposal really has time to burn, it's more efficient to give a general overview of the theme, intended playstyle(s), and role(s) of what the proponent would like to see rather than drawing up a full design document.

[Dr Meta.3158]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Ah, yes, scourge is a meme. It's such a meme that Teapot gave it its own tier in a PvE tierlist. Above S.

More seriously, though, I'd be onboard for alac ritualist necro. Or alac orders necro.

As an observation, I really disagree with the idea that making a proposal must come with a detailed description of how it would work down to individual skills, traits, or even weapon. ArenaNet has shown that they're not only capable of coming up with their own ideas of how to implement a concept, they prefer to, for better or worse. Unless the person making a proposal really has time to burn, it's more efficient to give a general overview of the theme, intended playstyle(s), and role(s) of what the proponent would like to see rather than drawing up a full design document.

I think he gave it its own tier above S (previously) because it makes instanced content nigh impossible to fail. Its just not the speed runner's choice. They would rather do repeated failed attempts quickly than one slower successful attempt.

Now he puts scourge at S and puts virtuoso in its own tier above S as virtuoso reaches old mirage levels of broken while missing the mobility to seal the deal of the most broken thing ever.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[Nephalem.8921]

23 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Ah, yes, scourge is a meme. It's such a meme that Teapot gave it its own tier in a PvE tierlist. Above S.

More seriously, though, I'd be onboard for alac ritualist necro. Or alac orders necro.

As an observation, I really disagree with the idea that making a proposal must come with a detailed description of how it would work down to individual skills, traits, or even weapon. ArenaNet has shown that they're not only capable of coming up with their own ideas of how to implement a concept, they prefer to, for better or worse. Unless the person making a proposal really has time to burn, it's more efficient to give a general overview of the theme, intended playstyle(s), and role(s) of what the proponent would like to see rather than drawing up a full design document.

Teapot itself is a meme. He brought it into fractals before the torment buffs. That should be enough of an explanation to disregard everything teapot has to say or write about scourge in pve.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Nephalem.8921

[Yasai.3549]

I feel like there is alot of different opinions of what a support is in this thread:

 

1. Support as a heal and boon slave. Yes Necros lack this.

 

2. Support as a Key Boon DPS. Harbinger is a very consistent QuickDPS.

 

3. Support as compared to meta. Cmon, don't waste our time, nothing compares to Healbrand.

 

Imo, Necro doesn't need a dedicated support role in terms of group healing. It feels very non-necroy and would more or less be a revamp of vamp from Blood Magic if you wanna "design it with a Necro aesthetic" 

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

20 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

I think he gave it its own tier above S (previously) because it makes instanced content nigh impossible to fail. Its just not the speed runner's choice. They would rather do repeated failed attempts quickly than one slower successful attempt.

Basically, yeah. He judges based on success rate, not speedclearing. If things go perfectly, a bloodscourge or healscourge is superfluous. However, they're really good at significantly reducing the chances of a mistake turning into a wipe.

15 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Teapot itself is a meme. He brought it into fractals before the torment buffs. That should be enough of an explanation to disregard everything teapot has to say or write about scourge in pve.

See comment above.

[Radina.6057]

On 2/18/2023 at 4:01 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Ah, yes, scourge is a meme. It's such a meme that Teapot gave it its own tier in a PvE tierlist. Above S.

 

Watching someone picking noobs up non stop for hours and having viewers talk about how horrible they are and how useful the streamer is for being a pickup bot must be so fun. Having the gal to call that build top and people believing their Idol is the most fun thing about it.

 

But lets get back to topic, right?

Scourge as an Alacrity source would be questionable at best. All you have is one Stability source which you have to spread by walking through people. Scourge does not have Aeigs, no group stun breaks, and wonky healing. Scourge also doesnt have something handy like "Rebound!".

Sucking up corpses and reviving them sounds and looks fun, but in the end you could have played anything that just did not let that happen in the first place.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Radina.6057