Necro changes previewed for Feb 3

[Infusion.7149]

Warhorn

• Banshee's Wail - no longer cuts warhorn cooldown
• Wail of Doom - unblockable , cooldown dropped from 30s to 24s
• Locust swarm - cooldown from 30s to 24s

Dagger

• Necrotic Stab (PVE) - increase power coefficient 0.7 to 0.9, life force form 2% to 4%
• Necrotic Bite (PVE) - increase coefficient from 1.2 to 1.3, life force from 6% to 8%
• Life Siphon  (PVP/WVW) - cooldown reduced from 10s to 8s, PVE increased damage to bleeding enemies from 20% to 50%
• Dark Pact - also applies bleeding to target , life force to caster per boon removed. PVP/WVW now removes boons instead of corrupting them. Increased boons removed from 1 to3 in PVP, 1 to 2 in WVW, 2 to 3 in PVE

 

Reaper

• Augury of Death: This trait no longer reduces the recharge of shout skills.
• "Your Soul is Mine!": This skill now deals additional damage and grants additional life force per target struck within melee range of the caster. Reduced cooldown from 20 seconds to 16 seconds.
• "Nothing Can Save You!": This skill no longer grants additional unblockable attacks on all enemies struck. This skill now deals additional damage and grants additional unblockable attacks when striking targets within melee range of the caster. Reduced cooldown from 20 seconds to 16 seconds.
• "Rise!": This skill now deals additional damage and summons additional horrors when striking targets within melee range of the caster. The maximum number of shambling horrors that can be summoned is 5. Reduced cooldown from 40 seconds to 32 seconds.
• "Suffer!": This skill now deals additional damage and transfers one additional condition to targets struck within melee range of the caster. Reduced cooldown from 20 seconds to 16 seconds.
• "You Are All Weaklings!": This skill now deals additional damage and grants more might when striking targets within melee range of the caster. Reduced cooldown from 25 seconds to 20 seconds.
• "Chilled to the Bone!": This skill now deals additional damage, stun, and condition duration, and grants you additional boons when striking targets within melee range of the caster. Reduced cooldown from 45 seconds to 36 seconds.
• Chilling Victory: Reduced cooldown from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP.
• Blighter's Boon: This trait now also triggers when removing a boon from an enemy.

In case I missed anything else

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Infusion.7149
add missing reaper section

[Tnanever.3192]

Is that literally everything?  Nothing else???

[Marxx.5021]

So bad. No scourge changes that would make it viable in PvP. Huge nerf for reaper shouts in particular for PvP - range reduced from 600 to melee! Warhorn changes which wont make any difference. All of this is in line with the last balance patch. In PvP the class is as dead as the game mode itself. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Marxx.5021

[Zex Anthon.8673]

No minion reworks. No Harbinger changes. No focus buffs. 

Half the changes were reverting dumb kitten changes from previous patches. The other half was changing stuff that didn't need changing. 

Minions still useless outside of bot farming

Harbinger still unfinished.

Necro weapons still trash.

[Deltama.2034]

 Shouts in close proximity is OK if you had stability. Reaper and scourge are in bad places and more damage is not what they need. Lower cooldown of movement skills and provide additional stability outside of shroud. 

 

[Dr Meta.3158]

They did not make shouts melee range. No kittening way. This has to be a translation error.

 

Yeah I think it may still be 600 range but the effects are more potent in melee range (130?)

 

Blighters boon still has the issue of it being too slow in combat

Shouts pale in comparison to spectral because lifeforce is the most important thing you can have and its much harder to get against classes that rely on evasion than damage reduction.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[Marxx.5021]

21 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

They did not make shouts melee range. No kittening way. This has to be a translation error.

 

Yeah I think it may still be 600 range but the effects are more potent in melee range (130?)

 

Blighters boon still has the issue of it being too slow in combat

Shouts pale in comparison to spectral because lifeforce is the most important thing you can have and its much harder to get against classes that rely on evasion than damage reduction.

Yes right - melee range is for the additional damage. However it is still disappointing how many changes other classes receive when for example scourge is in much more need for (PvP) buffs than warrior or elementalist for example.

[Dr Meta.3158]

3 minutes ago, Marxx.5021 said:

Yes right - melee range is for the additional damage. However it is still disappointing how many changes other classes receive when for example scourge is in much more need for (PvP) buffs than warrior or elementalist for example.

Scourge needs a redesign before it goes back in. And I imagine it would get the firebrand treatment. 

[Junkpile.7439]

So core didn't get stability🤦‍♂️

[Donari.5237]

The details are listed in

I also read it as reduced to melee range, at least the wording of Nothing Can Save You strongly implies it.

[Obtena.7952]

Nice, I love these double whammy patches. 

1. Anet DIDN'T just dump DPS on Reaper coefficients to enable people to continue claiming it's a pure DPS spec that needs competitive DPS because 'can't get teams'.

2. Anet made changes to Reaper that actually matter to its gameplay (even if you think those changes are not good)

Just another example of Anet exercising smart application of thoughtful damage buffs to reinforce gameplay over bean counting. 

Not disappointed with WH or Dagger changes either, though the LF regain is pretty hefty (too much IMO). Shout out to the  "add condi to dagger AA" people out there as well. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Dr Meta.3158]

It looks like this

Reaper shouts are 600 range radius. They are stronger in 130? range radius. Nothing can save you! is just a self buff for unblockable attacks in melee range rather than inflicting the debuff on others.

Going over the shouts,

Your soul is mine has always been good because it gives lifeforce and has been steadily getting better over time. In this case the floor was lowered and the ceiling may be higher or lower, don't know yet. Probably higher but harder to reach of course.

Suffer! is good if it hits a lot of people in teamfights and terrible otherwise. The bottom end of the scaling is too harsh. It looks like the scaling got even more extreme going from 0 to 5 into 0 to 10. That's unnecessary. The floor needs to be higher, not the ceiling. 

You are all weaklings! is an amazing stunbreak and is fantastic when paired with blighters boon and has only gotten better with this patch. It still isn't as good as spectral walk, spectral armor, or flesh wurm because of the lack of lifeforce without blighters boon and how crippled reaper is at doing its job with blighters boon over reaper's onslaught.

Nothing can save you! is a niche skill that is not worth taking over stunbreaks or skills that save you from getting stunned like spectral wall of well of darkness or even skills that limit the punishment for getting stunned like corrosive poison cloud.

Rise! Is a phenomenally designed skill held back by mostly the slow speed of the minions but also their low health. If they were fast like ranger pets, then this skill would be worth taking.

Chilled to the bone! Is an ok elite skill due to no real competitive options.

Augury of death change allows traiting into chill procs for the chilling victory change for more life force which also is good for the blighters boon usage despite blighters boon being clearly inferior to reapers onslaught. So reaper's onslaught got more chill and lifeforce application this patch.

Warhorn fear being unblockable is huge and should had been that way since the change from daze.

Increased uptime on warhorn swiftness is decent.

The dagger buffs... eh.

They clearly want reapers to go melee with dagger warhorn but thats the last thing you want to do outside of shroud. You have almost no stab or way to mitigate damage outside of shroud. Don't fall into this trap the devs are setting. The lifegain on locust swarm would have to get massively buffed to even consider doing this.

Overall no real changes to reaper other than a new meme build available to play around with when you're not try harding on another class altogether.

 

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

small boost to core weapons and Shouts no longer need to hit 4 targets to be somewhat useful. Nothing to write home about but can't complain 🤷‍♂️

now, if only they could give us real defenses/sustain...

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

They clearly want reapers to go melee with dagger warhorn but thats the last thing you want to do outside of shroud. You have almost no stab or way to mitigate damage outside of shroud. Don't fall into this trap the devs are setting. The lifegain on locust swarm would have to get massively buffed to even consider doing this.

Or Anet knows that Dagger on Reaper is one of the most sustainable builds you can access as a Reaper and want to make that option improved for people that want to play that way.

This isn't about Anet pushing us  to play a certain way with some trap. That's absolutely absurd. It's about Anet giving players options.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Dr Meta.3158]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Or Anet knows that Dagger on Reaper is one of the most sustainable builds you can access as a Reaper and want to make that option improved for people that want to play that way.

This isn't about Anet pushing us  to play a certain way with some trap. That's absolutely absurd. It's about Anet giving players options.

 

I shall see you play your dagger warhorn reaper build in the next hardstuck tourney then. If we match up, I am sorry ahead of time and no hard feelings.

[Obtena.7952]

33 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

I shall see you play your dagger warhorn reaper build in the next hardstuck tourney then. If we match up, I am sorry ahead of time and no hard feelings.

No. I'm pretty sure you won't see me there so save your empty apologies for someone else. That doesn't change what I said though. It's sad that you label these changes as a 'trap' set by Anet when really what is happening here is Anet giving people effective options to play how they want. Classic metapushing ... trash anything that doesn't support the idea that everyone should be playing the most optimal builds ... despite the fact that Anet continues to put LOTS of work into give people choices on how to play.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Acanthus.8120]

PvE player here.

Those dagger changes and Chilled to the Bone buffs are pretty great. I actually already run Dagger/Warhorn as my second weapon set, so those buffs directly make me stronger. I like to use Dread when soloing and PUGing, and perma-swiftness from Spectral Walk and Locust Swarm combined were already useful.

I'm ambivalent about the general shout changes. It's not because they aren't good, they are. I simply am unwilling to give up Signet of Undeath with Signets of Suffering. And if you're doing that and not taking Awaken the Pain, you might as well take Signet of Spite and Signet of Vampirism too. That locks you out of using the non-elite shouts. Ultimately, too much of our power is locked into shroud, so the options that maximize shroud uptime become optimal no matter how good the alternatives are.

Don't get me wrong, I love the feel of Death Perception and Reaper's Onslaught, but as long as those exist in a way that locks you into shroud, and as long as Reaper's Might and Unyielding Blast exist, you're going to look at maximizing shroud longevity first and replenishing life force second. Soul Barbs incentivize shroud dancing, but because of the aforementioned 4 traits, it becomes a "dance out of shroud for the minimum duration necessary" trait rather than a "dance in and out for more damage" trait.

I actually would prefer to run other utilities because signets are boring, but signets have the unique property of being the only utilities that actually DO something in shroud, the form you want to be in as much as possible. Not to mention they recharge faster while you're in shroud in addition to giving their effects while on cd (and more strongly) while in shroud. They are and will remain mandatory. Nerfing them without touching the above isn't a good option either since nerfing them to make them competitive with other options would simply make the spec massively weaker by drastically decreasing shroud uptime (and thus damage/survivability) and make a skilled Reaper much less able to control when (s)he wants to enter/leave shroud.

The bonus effects of the shouts seem good and fun btw. There's just not a way to utilize them properly unless Deathly Chill Reaper becomes viable again or there becomes a way to specialize in power outside of shroud instead of in shroud.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Acanthus.8120

[Dr Meta.3158]

3 minutes ago, Acanthus.8120 said:

PvE player here.

Those dagger changes and Chilled to the Bone buffs are pretty great. I actually already run Dagger/Warhorn as my second weapon set, so those buffs directly make me stronger. I like to use Dread when soloing and PUGing, and perma-swiftness from Spectral Walk and Locust Swarm combined were already useful.

I'm ambivalent about the general shout changes. It's not because they aren't good, they are. I simply am unwilling to give up Signet of Undeath with Signets of Suffering. And if you're doing that and not taking Awaken the Pain, you might as well take Signet of Spite and Signet of Vampirism too. That locks you out of using the non-elite shouts. Ultimately, too much of our power is locked into shroud, so the options that maximize shroud uptime become optimal no matter how good the alternatives are.

Don't get me wrong, I love the feel of Death Perception and Reaper's Onslaught, but as long as those exist in a way that locks you into shroud, and as long as Reaper's Might and Unyielding Blast exist, you're going to look at maximizing shroud longevity first and replenishing life force second. Soul Barbs incentivize shroud dancing, but because of the aforementioned 4 traits, it becomes a "dance out of shroud for the minimum duration necessary" trait rather than a "dance in and out for more damage" trait.

I actually would prefer to run other utilities because signets are boring, but signets have the unique property of being the only utilities that actually DO something in shroud, the form you want to be in as much as possible. Not to mention they recharge faster while you're in shroud in addition to giving their effects while on cd (and more strongly) while in shroud. They are and will remain mandatory. Nerfing them without touching the above isn't an option either since nerfing them to make them competitive with other options would simply make the spec massively weaker by drastically decreasing shroud uptime (and thus damage/survivability) and make a skilled Reaper much less able to control when (s)he wants to enter/leave shroud.

The bonus effects of the shouts seem good and fun btw. There's just not a way to utilize them properly unless Deathly Chill Reaper becomes viable again or there becomes a way to specialize in power outside of shroud instead of in shroud.

All the stuff I talked about earlier was for pvp incase anyone didn't realize.

Now on to you. The changes to buff shouts in melee would make a lot of sense in all game modes if you could use shouts in shroud.  In PvE you could run something like your soul is mine, undeath, rise, spectral walk, chilled to the bone for really good shroud uptime with just having to leave shroud occasionally for swiftness if you're not already just using End of Dragons Pokemon sword/shield boons anyway if you're soloing or just relying on outside boons in non serious group content. 

[Acanthus.8120]

23 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

All the stuff I talked about earlier was for pvp incase anyone didn't realize.

Now on to you. The changes to buff shouts in melee would make a lot of sense in all game modes if you could use shouts in shroud.  In PvE you could run something like your soul is mine, undeath, rise, spectral walk, chilled to the bone for really good shroud uptime with just having to leave shroud occasionally for swiftness if you're not already just using End of Dragons Pokemon sword/shield boons anyway if you're soloing or just relying on outside boons in non serious group content. 

Honestly, even if they didn't do this, as long as Necromancer trait trees were cleaned up to have a greater purity of purpose, it would come together. For example, putting all shroud only options in Soul Reaping, moving crit chance stuff to Spite, and moving condi transfer/boon corruption to Curses. Also if Death Magic could decide whether it wants to be a poison buffing condi/toughness tree or a power buffing toughness tree instead of trying to do both poorly, that would be great. Maybe figure out if blood magic could do something other than being the crutch tree (since it doesn't do meaningful support, healing, or damage outside of edge cases such as Transfusion in tough raids). That way, you can at least have the option of building for out of shroud.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Acanthus.8120
Hit save early, sorry.

[Dr Meta.3158]

9 minutes ago, Acanthus.8120 said:

Honestly, even if they didn't do this, as long as Necromancer trait trees were cleaned up to have a greater purity of purpose, it would come together. For example, putting all shroud only options in Soul Reaping, moving crit chance stuff to Spite, and moving condi transfer/boon corruption to Curses. Also if Death Magic could decide whether it wants to be a poison buffing condi/toughness tree or a power buffing toughness tree instead of trying to do both poorly, that would be great. Maybe figure out if blood magic could do something other than being the crutch tree (since it doesn't do meaningful support, healing, or damage outside of edge cases such as Transfusion in tough raids). That way, you can at least have the option of building for out of shroud.

If only...

[Yasai.3549]

3 hours ago, Deltama.2034 said:

 Shouts in close proximity is OK if you had stability. Reaper and scourge are in bad places and more damage is not what they need. Lower cooldown of movement skills and provide additional stability outside of shroud. 

 

They should have added Stability on Shouts to Augury of Death... At least that would give more value to the trait now that they are divorcing cooldown reduction from it. 

[Greviathan.6107]

Perspective from WvW roamer and PvP:

Overall I'm a little disappointed with how poor the necro patch is

Shouts
There are no real numerical data and based on the statistics these changes could even turn out to be a half nerf. 
It would be nice if shouts could be used in shroud as well.

Nothing Can Save You:
it still lacks something to be a viable option, like a reveal and instant cast

Reaper

Blighter's Boon:
Reaper's Shroud without quickness is too slow by today's standards. As long as others aren't spamming you with perma quickness, Blighter's Boon will always be eclipsed by Reaper's Onslaught.

The ideal would be to increase the base attack and action speed of the shroud by 50% but make the reaper in shroud immune to quickness to avoid a "double quickness" effect.
Once this change is made even Deathly Chill could become a choice maybe.
And here's how I would change Reaper's Onslaught accordingly too:
Gain ferocity while in Reaper's Shroud and gain 3 seconds of quickness when exiting Reaper's Shroud. Hitting with Life Reap reduces the recharge time of shroud skills.

Generally speaking  Reaper needs everything but damage in PvP and WvW.
What the reaper needs (but the necro in general) is better mobility, better defenses distribution and less shroud camping.
Especially now that the average mobility has grown exponentially, the reaper has fallen too far behind.
(I have some ideas on how to rework the reaper about it, to give it a more skilled and modern gameplay, maybe sooner or later I'll expose my idea)

Meanwhile, with this patch they give even more mobility to rangers and guardians (Was that really needed?).
 

Also in PvP and WvW there is one thing that in my opinion should be looked at:

The Out Of Combat / Combat Reset Abuse

Currently in WvW the combat reset is too abuseable by anyone with more mobility, and the necro is the one that suffers the most due to how the shroud work. So here is my proposal:

When not in combat, the shroud automatically regenerates quickly up to 50% and slowly up to 100%. (in the arena I think it's ideal to cap both halfway or less, up to 20% quickly and then slowly up to 33%)
Bonus and In wvw only: Bonus: Reduces Shroud's CD by 5 seconds when exiting combat.
Pro:

- Do not affect normal fights
- Punish the OOC abuse.
- Always combat ready necros.
- Quality of Life UP.
- In the arena it could give that little extra initial survivability without breaking anything if well implemented.
Cons:
- If you can think of any cons, let me know and I'll add them!


Other things I think it's time to update:
Flash Wurm
It's very popular because it's the only real source of mobility that the necro has by default, but that doesn't mean it's an excellent utility, the cast time is really too slow (and the minion can also be destroyed to prevent the necro from breaking stuns and teleport), so the cast time should be seriously reduced to 0.25 seconds.

EDIT:
I forgot to mention the daggers, when I saw the patch notes all my hopes of seeing MH daggers usable in pvp/wvw were broken. Especially after the illusion of the initial summary. Currently there is little to say, in pvp and wvw they are still more than useless, a rework is needed, not an update! 😪

These are some of my main feedbacks

Edited February 4, 2023 by Greviathan.6107
Forgot Daggers

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

So core didn't get stability🤦‍♂️

It is a stated design vulnerability

[Zex Anthon.8673]

21 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It is a stated design vulnerability

No Stability, No Resistance, No Vigor, No Mobility.

Lots of health though and as you say "superior damage reduction". Necro is built to be a punching bag.

[Infusion.7149]

8 minutes ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

No Stability, No Resistance, No Vigor, No Mobility.

Lots of health though and as you say "superior damage reduction". Necro is built to be a punching bag.

If you're talking about core the pseudo mobility is in death shroud (dark path) , spectral walk , and flesh wurm. In 2v2s at one point double core necro condi carrion bunker was a thing. Even before EoD launch core condi necro was far stronger than most other condi specs in terms of sustain due to Feb 2020 balance patch hitting most power builds' burst. Death Shroud and Reaper Shroud  have a 50% damage reduction in PVP/WVW that is what he means by damage reduction on top of the health pool. If you consider weakness as active mitigation (especially with weakening shroud) along with blindness those are also damage mitigation tools as necromancer focuses not so much on boons (although necro does have prot) but conditions instead.

Harbinger has even more mobility due to two mobility skills that don't require a target (Devouring Cut, Voracious Arc), reaper Death's Charge is more or less around Dark Path cooldown and unlike Death Shroud it can be kited easier (which is why reaper has pulls).

Reaper , scourge, and harbinger both have stability via Infusing Terror, Trail of Ansuish, Implacable Foe respectively.

Not sure why resistance is warranted when condi is dealt with so easily on all necros via transfer and condition removal. Most resistance is on short duration. Whether it is Spectral Walk, Putrid Mark, Deathly Swarm, consume conditions, Plague sending trait in curses line, Nefarious Favor on scourge, Abrasive grit trait on scourge, Shrouded removal if you run Death Magic, Unholy martyr trait on core condi necro, etc.

Vigor is obviously lacking because giving necro easier gain of extra dodges would mean the health pool cannot be bursted.