Feb 3 preview for rev

[X Anthony A.8409]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I remember SOMEONE 😉 said Vindicator can't continue to exist with unbalanced Alliance sides. Looks like they were right. Here is the relevant quote from Anet's patch notes:

We'd like to see vindicator builds move into more offensive trait choices to make up for the loss in damage, instead of remaining a damage threat while focusing on defensive traits.

Completely agree that reverting back to 2 dodges ... ruined identity. Vindicator is now just a Revenant with access to 3 legends that can't be balanced easily due to the opposing nature and gameplay impact of Alliance legends. 

Yeah was probably me if this is what you meant, I kept saying its a elite spec focused more on the dps side then heal, heal on it is just a bonus but it makes it so that vindicator never gets real utility/cc in its skill and because of it not being accessed so easily as a dps class its easily one of the worsts since the dps is just mediocre and not the top of the benchmarks so as of this post prolly above 44k or so but that wouldn't happen because people would cry about pvp and neither would it getting utility happen because yay blue side exists and is super clunky and worthless when on dps. So yeah imo vindicator is still just a meme but who knows maybe one day it will get addressed and fixed. So yeah the class was supposed to be purposed for dps as its main thing and fails epically at it since its glass cannon and does less then most other specs especially since its mele and power aka dead epsec for awhile, may as well call it herald of the past when people forgot herald existed.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, X Anthony A.8409 said:

Yeah was probably me if this is what you meant, I kept saying its a elite spec focused more on the dps side then heal, heal on it is just a bonus but it makes it so that vindicator never gets real utility/cc in its skill and because of it not being accessed so easily as a dps class its easily one of the worsts since the dps is just mediocre and not the top of the benchmarks so as of this post prolly above 44k or so but that wouldn't happen because people would cry about pvp and neither would it getting utility happen because yay blue side exists and is super clunky and worthless when on dps. So yeah imo vindicator is still just a meme but who knows maybe one day it will get addressed and fixed. So yeah the class was supposed to be purposed for dps as its main thing and fails epically at it since its glass cannon and does less then most other specs especially since its mele and power aka dead epsec for awhile, may as well call it herald of the past when people forgot herald existed.

No, I didn't mean you. Regardless, you continue to claim that Vindicator was supposed to be purposed for DPS; that's simply not it's concept so the claim is contradictory. What seems evident is that It's unlikely to ever be purposed for DPS now. Second patch in a row Anet is chopping it's DPS in competitive modes ... and why? For the reason I said before that would never be a DPS primary purpose: because of it's Alliances Legend duality. 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   It doesn't work that way since swapping from orange to blue (and viceversa) doesn't provide any energy, and our "two" new legends have things like two heals of 714 HP each one, not to mention that Archemorus skills are oriented towards dealing damage whereas Kurzik skills are team support, so whatever gear you chose they don't synergize well amongst them. Dps Vindicators run Archemorus + Shiro or Jalis and support Vindicators run Ventari + Viktor. 

   The problem with Vindi was never having a second row of legend skills (otherwise Eles having 4 attunements would have been impossible to balance) since they consume too much energy for a single swap, but things as changing the evade properties, which already did cause heavy problems in the Daredevil and Mirage. That and having two unspiring third-row human heroes from Cantha when we already have the superior Shiro to entirely cover that crap.

   So, wasted opportunity in terms of lore and a mess with the basic mechanics of the game just because someone had a bonner with FF XIV's Dragoon gameplay design...

Again, my point is that Vindicator is  NOW just a Revenant that has access to 3 legends; it's an untenable balancing challenge for Anet. There are very few approaches to fix this and none of them look very appealing as a player. This is just a good example of when spec concepts are gutted without considering how the spec design and implementation will work when in the game. 

Whether it 'works' or not or how relevant the heros are ... that's second rate and not really relevant to my point here. I think we can both agree that Vindicator currently is big problems. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Morvar.9864]

Disappointed as well.

 

Herald still left into dust and no changes shield changes either. I bet it'll be like engineer medkit for the next 5 years.

Better luck at next year.. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

38 minutes ago, Morvar.9864 said:

Disappointed as well.

 

Herald still left into dust and no changes shield changes either. I bet it'll be like engineer medkit for the next 5 years.

Better luck at next year.. 

Herald is performing the best it has pretty much ever performed across the whole game. Sure, it's not meta in PvP anymore, but it's doing excellently in all other game modes still and it's still good/decent in PvP. Outside of some shield buffs Herald really doesn't need anything at this point

[Morvar.9864]

Quote

Herald is performing the best it has pretty much ever performed across the whole game.

Whoops, meant Ventari's stance. Quite rarely seen in WvW.

[Lakerduck.1895]

4 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Yep. Also: is funny how no one was running the damage jump when they released the Vindi with a 150 endurance cost (and no stackable dodge) so everyone instead was using the heal/barrier one. Then they nerfed the heal/barrier so everyone moved to the chill/boons jump, because the other two were pointless. And now that option A and C are bad, they will nerf option B, which isn't great at all: is just that everything else is bad. And is the same with almost every class now.

   The thing is: at one point it has to work and be fun to some extent, otherwise people just stop playing garbage builds. And that's what happened in 2022 with PvP: 0 new content and almost every spec burned to ashes, players fled and the remaining face the silver vs plat low pop paradise...

I have noticed that there is a lot of hate towards the Vindicator and I somehow found the most fun playing with the Vindicator, which gives the reason why I stuck around for the long and GW2 is my first ever MMO game. From my observations for the boards, and to be blunt, a lot of players' prides and ego are hurt by the existence of the Vindicator while there are classes that already outperformed the Vindicator in every game mode. It's like the players want to take the fun away from those that like the Vindicator, and they also want PvE nerfs too. Why?

 

I actually want to know the past about the Vindicator since I can trace where the hate came from from the Devs' decision to design the Vindicator particularly their traits and the one-dodge vs. two-dodges. What's the damage like for all types of dodge (Death Drop, Imperial Impact) and the heal from Saint's Shield at the time  of release and most of 2023. I might do some bit of digging when time permits.

 

I am aware of the Vindicator nerfs and they only got it on PvP and WvW since it was abused in competitive play. As a consequence, people want this profession to be nerfed to the ground, and that includes PvE play. Now, I see Catalysts ruining PvP by their dominance in the meta as shown in my experience of dealing them and getting melted instantly than most classes and the MAT champions filled with a bunch of Elementalists who are mostly Catalysts and Spellbreakers. The French team with a fairy team of Catalysts is not fun to watch and this makes me think that the design and balance philosophy of the Balance Team is not about leveling the playing field, but allowing a dominant profession of their liking to come to fruition. It is hard to tell for me to know those two guys' favorite professions (those that presented the Feb. 14 balance preview). I wanted to know since they seem not want to have all professions to have a good time and put players in a situation to choose the meta-based builds and professions to compete, which reminds me about the League of Legends although with some differences. Catalysts can dominate in the game, but I still won't play them at all. I prefer the Vindicator because of it's greatsword play. I don't want my class to be OP as well since it will create and revive the animosity of this class. 

 

If I want to be tanky, I go with the Salvation trait and there goes my full DPS even with Berserker's stats. If I want to go with the raid build, I now have all the damage thanks to the Devastation and Invocation traits and Death Drop, but there goes my defenses. If I want to be full tank, go with the Wupwup and Superior Rune of the Revenant to get all the stats possible and gain resistance when I heal. Vindicators has trade-offs in any game mode I play. If I go for survivability and sustain, I lose the damage, but I can more damage overall simply being alive. If I go for all damage, I am a glass cannon. 

 

I am not happy with the Imperial Impact nerf since it weakens the condition build in PvP. The Vindicator nerfs are the reason why I play core Guardian in PvP with much better success. In my few cents, I see a lot of hate on Vindicators and I have yet to see people explicate why they are OP and why they want them to be nerfed in PvE. 

[mandala.8507]

So, Orders From Above went from 1.5 seconds of alac for 4 pulses every 16 seconds to 2 seconds of alac for 4 pulses every 16 seconds, which is increased to 6 pulses with Righteous Rebel.

Without RR, it's now baseline 8 seconds of alac every 16 seconds.

With RR, it's now baseline 12 seconds of alac every 16 seconds.

So, like, aren't people just going to stack 2 full dps renegades and get free alac for very minimal dps losses? Especially considering heal herald extension and not even mentioning the free 16%+ boon duration from fractal potions.

This update is much needed, but they must to be more creative here to make sure people won't stack, or that if they do, they make meaningful tradeoffs.

Options could be:

1. Increase the disparity in pulse count between no RR and RR to force people into taking RR to give good uptime.
2. Revert the change and add flat concentration to RR instead (could be problematic, so maybe not the best option).
3. Make giving good alac uptime 2-trait reliant by adding some sort of modifier to another non-dps trait in the specialization.
4. Make RR increase the duration of alacrity you apply or how your alacrity application scales with boon duration to prevent full-dps stacking.
5. etc.

With the testing I did, I can't see a world where I would take an alacren over double dps renegade and making them press Orders From Above in even a mildly competent group. Alacren feels good now, but it's worse than the stacking version I'm pretty sure, and that seems problematic. I would loathe rev stacking replacing all other dps alac options out of nowhere. And it's not as difficult as Bladesworn stacking, so it could happen.

[Yasai.3549]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

So, Orders From Above went from 1.5 seconds of alac for 4 pulses every 16 seconds to 2 seconds of alac for 4 pulses every 16 seconds, which is increased to 6 pulses with Righteous Rebel.

Without RR, it's now baseline 8 seconds of alac every 16 seconds.

With RR, it's now baseline 12 seconds of alac every 16 seconds.

So, like, aren't people just going to stack 2 full dps renegades and get free alac for very minimal dps losses? Especially considering heal herald extension and not even mentioning the free 16%+ boon duration from fractal potions.

This update is much needed, but they must to be more creative here to make sure people won't stack, or that if they do, they make meaningful tradeoffs.

Options could be:

1. Increase the disparity in pulse count between no RR and RR to force people into taking RR to give good uptime.
2. Revert the change and add flat concentration to RR instead (could be problematic, so maybe not the best option).
3. Make giving good alac uptime 2-trait reliant by adding some sort of modifier to another non-dps trait in the specialization.
4. Make RR increase the duration of alacrity you apply or how your alacrity application scales with boon duration to prevent full-dps stacking.
5. etc.

With the testing I did, I can't see a world where I would take an alacren over double dps renegade and making them press Orders From Above in even a mildly competent group. Alacren feels good now, but it's worse than the stacking version I'm pretty sure, and that seems problematic. I would loathe rev stacking replacing all other dps alac options out of nowhere. And it's not as difficult as Bladesworn stacking, so it could happen.

All of these do not escape the core problem that Rene is basically a One-Button Alac bot and they have to pay the price of being unimaginitive.

 

What I would do is this:

Orders From Above- Changed to share Kalla's Fervor to allies in an AoE per pulse. 

This directly increases their Team DPS contribution.

 

RR- Changed to apply Alacrity in an AoE around the Rene when they cast Orders.

 

This will turn Rene from a one button Alac to 3 Button Alac, and the Kalla Fervor sharing would be unique and discourages stacking.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

All of these do not escape the core problem that Rene is basically a One-Button Alac bot and they have to pay the price of being unimaginitive.

 

What I would do is this:

Orders From Above- Changed to share Kalla's Fervor to allies in an AoE per pulse. 

This directly increases their Team DPS contribution.

 

RR- Changed to apply Alacrity in an AoE around the Rene when they cast Orders.

 

This will turn Rene from a one button Alac to 3 Button Alac, and the Kalla Fervor sharing would be unique and discourages stacking.

 

 

Or they could have just moved AoE alac to RR like every other spec and had Orders from Above only apply personal alacrity if RR isn't traited?

Endless Enmity didn't need to have AoE fury if the AoE fury was applied to Orders from Above. Vigor would be a decent choice since renegade needs full endurance for its full crit chance and you cannot upkeep vigor right now with Brutal Momentum alone unless you are using boon duration.

[Yasai.3549]

43 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Or they could have just moved AoE alac to RR like every other spec and had Orders from Above only apply personal alacrity if RR isn't traited?

Endless Enmity didn't need to have AoE fury if the AoE fury was applied to Orders from Above. Vigor would be a decent choice since renegade needs full endurance for its full crit chance and you cannot upkeep vigor right now with Brutal Momentum alone unless you are using boon duration.

Will still make Rene a one-button alac, which was ultimately what forced it to run 78% Boon duration currently until the patch lands. The issue which the person I was replying raised was how the patch would buff Orders From Above so much so that you could run 2 DPS Renes instead of 1 Boon DPS Rene. Note, all they did was buff Orders from 1.5 to 2. That's all it takes to surface this issue. This is due entirely to Orders from Above being the only Alac source, but if it's just a tad too weak, the Renegade player has to repair that deficiency by sacrificing stats. 

The idea here is to step away from this One-Button Alac playstyle + make it unique so what he worries about wouldn't happen. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Infusion.7149]

23 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Will still make Rene a one-button alac, which was ultimately what forced it to run 78% Boon duration currently until the patch lands. The issue which the person I was replying raised was how the patch would buff Orders From Above so much so that you could run 2 DPS Renes instead of 1 Boon DPS Rene. Note, all they did was buff Orders from 1.5 to 2. That's all it takes to surface this issue. This is due entirely to Orders from Above being the only Alac source, but if it's just a tad too weak, the Renegade player has to repair that deficiency by sacrificing stats. 

The idea here is to step away from this One-Button Alac playstyle + make it unique so what he worries about wouldn't happen. 

I don't see why one button alac is a problem in this era of GW2 where mechanist autoattacks for alac and way overcaps it if using Barrier Engine and a mace ; if you have 3 clones on mirage you can upkeep 10 man alac with enough duration (shown by CnD) from ambushes although you need your utilities for more mirage mirrors. The problem is being able to stack 2 ren and not use RR trait for alac IMO. Having the alac be personal alac and not party alac would address that much more cleanly without major balance implications. Chrono currently has quickness and alac for example but alac only for itself, it's an either or situation when providing boons for others (AoE quick or AoE alac). Any ranger has the flip scenario where you can provide alac to other people but quickness only to yourself and the same goes for specter.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[X Anthony A.8409]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, I didn't mean you. Regardless, you continue to claim that Vindicator was supposed to be purposed for DPS; that's simply not it's concept so the claim is contradictory. What seems evident is that It's unlikely to ever be purposed for DPS now. Second patch in a row Anet is chopping it's DPS in competitive modes ... and why? For the reason I said before that would never be a DPS primary purpose: because of it's Alliances Legend duality. 

 

It is the Power dps spec of rev since you got herald for support, ren for condi, and vindi for power but one thing i do agree on is alliance is the reason the class is held back it needs more in the kit then it currently has is to weak for a dps spec with trade offs for no reason other then alliance existing blue side i mean it has invisible trade offs for a dps spec that doesnt even make use of the blue side for having said trade offs... which is really bad imagine if every other class had the same horrid utility/cc and mediocre dps for a clunky dual legend swap that dps players couldn't even make use of. Like if every other class had something similar im pretty sure the game would be dead and everyone would have quit.

[soul.9651]

9 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

So, Orders From Above went from 1.5 seconds of alac for 4 pulses every 16 seconds to 2 seconds of alac for 4 pulses every 16 seconds, which is increased to 6 pulses with Righteous Rebel.

Without RR, it's now baseline 8 seconds of alac every 16 seconds.

With RR, it's now baseline 12 seconds of alac every 16 seconds.

So, like, aren't people just going to stack 2 full dps renegades and get free alac for very minimal dps losses? Especially considering heal herald extension and not even mentioning the free 16%+ boon duration from fractal potions.

This update is much needed, but they must to be more creative here to make sure people won't stack, or that if they do, they make meaningful tradeoffs.

Options could be:

1. Increase the disparity in pulse count between no RR and RR to force people into taking RR to give good uptime.
2. Revert the change and add flat concentration to RR instead (could be problematic, so maybe not the best option).
3. Make giving good alac uptime 2-trait reliant by adding some sort of modifier to another non-dps trait in the specialization.
4. Make RR increase the duration of alacrity you apply or how your alacrity application scales with boon duration to prevent full-dps stacking.
5. etc.

With the testing I did, I can't see a world where I would take an alacren over double dps renegade and making them press Orders From Above in even a mildly competent group. Alacren feels good now, but it's worse than the stacking version I'm pretty sure, and that seems problematic. I would loathe rev stacking replacing all other dps alac options out of nowhere. And it's not as difficult as Bladesworn stacking, so it could happen.

As if we currently dont have 2 quick share cfb meta where they go full dps swap one trait and do exactly the same....... Helllooo??? And when we have 2 RR revs what other boons besides alac are they gonna bring to the party? Few stacks of might?.....

[Sereath.1428]

A very wack patch. That's what I think about it.
 

Multiple damage nerfs for Vind.
Utility nerf by completely deleting chill from Imperial Impact.
Core rev nerf.

Nothing for Herald. (Shield completely ignored and the gameplay for the quickness application will remain braindead).

And since I have never cared for Renegade because I consider it one of the worst designed elite specs, this patch was disheartening for me.

Edited February 5, 2023 by XxsdgxX.8109

[mandala.8507]

4 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

As if we currently dont have 2 quick share cfb meta where they go full dps swap one trait and do exactly the same....... Helllooo??? And when we have 2 RR revs what other boons besides alac are they gonna bring to the party? Few stacks of might?.....

With heal herald + 2 LL dps condi renegades, you have perma might, fury, quickness, alacrity, protection, resolution, regen and swiftness as well as high resistance uptime and good stab access. The only thing you don't have is aegis, and if you're on a fight where you really need it, you'd be able to swap the heal herald for a healbrand and add in the tiniest bit of concentration on your renegades.

Condi ren is a 40k dps spec and you don't lose that much dmg from pressing Orders From Above, and just under 3k more dmg lost from the overlap of razorclaw's rage. The highest bench for alac dps is untamed at ~35k, but that build is unplayable for most people most of the time. The next highest after that is alac mirage at 30k.

So you can run quickness healer + 3 dps + 30k alac mirage or you can run quickness healer + 2 dps + 2 alac share rens doing ~73k dps together. Assuming your dps players are doing at least as much as the rens would be with their regular rotations (40k each), your subgroup just increased it's dps by 3k from taking double ren alac providers over the best solo alac dps that isn't the borderline unplayable untamed one.

And this playstyle is nowhere near as difficult to execute as other boon stacking methods imo.

[mandala.8507]

12 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

What I would do is this:

Orders From Above- Changed to share Kalla's Fervor to allies in an AoE per pulse. 

This directly increases their Team DPS contribution.

I think you've underestimated the potency of Kalla's Fervor and how it works. It's a modifier that stacks up to 5 times, so I think it pulsing out over time would be kind of weird, and +15% outgoing dmg being shared to 4 other people seems wildly potent to me. Not only would renegade have to do basically zero dmg solo for it to be at all balanced, but if it were at all good, it would be a return to the unique modifier meta the devs just spent almost 2 years getting us out of because it was unhealthy and too difficult to balance while maintaining build variety.

The problem isn't that ren just has to press 1 button. Renegade is already a fun and intricate spec with lots of utility and a variety of playstyles. Making the class even more complicated and high-apm doesn't seem correct to me. They just need to get more creative with the tradeoffs for providing alac. Making it entirely convoluted and ally-dependent wouldn't be very good design imo. I could see 1000 different ways your suggestion could get abused across all modes if it were good, and it were bad, it would just make renegade unplayable.

[mandala.8507]

11 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I don't see why one button alac is a problem in this era of GW2 where mechanist autoattacks for alac and way overcaps it if using Barrier Engine and a mace ; if you have 3 clones on mirage you can upkeep 10 man alac with enough duration (shown by CnD) from ambushes although you need your utilities for more mirage mirrors. The problem is being able to stack 2 ren and not use RR trait for alac IMO. Having the alac be personal alac and not party alac would address that much more cleanly without major balance implications. Chrono currently has quickness and alac for example but alac only for itself, it's an either or situation when providing boons for others (AoE quick or AoE alac). Any ranger has the flip scenario where you can provide alac to other people but quickness only to yourself and the same goes for specter.

I think the ability to shore up alacrity uptime for the group even when going full dps is part of the class's identity and I wouldn't want to see it removed entirely just to make balance easier. You bring up how chrono is now, but Chrono is probably the most corrupted and distorted elite spec thematically in the game. That traitline is a Frankensein's monster of mishmashed modifiers and the class lost all of its charm because of it. Also, mediocre solo alac would make Orders From Above unpressable outside of group play.

[Yasai.3549]

2 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I think you've underestimated the potency of Kalla's Fervor and how it works. It's a modifier that stacks up to 5 times, so I think it pulsing out over time would be kind of weird, and +15% outgoing dmg being shared to 4 other people seems wildly potent to me.

I mean yea, that's kinda the idea. Other classes have OP stuff they bring to the table, if we can dream, why not dream big? 

 

3 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

The problem isn't that ren just has to press 1 button.

Welllll it is the entire problem of current Alacgade. Their buffing from 1.5 to 2 is so miniscule but people have already detected Spec dominance possibility. If buffing just by 0.5s is all it takes to turn a weak skill into potentially super busted skill, I think it's the entire problem.

 

4 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Making the class even more complicated and high-apm doesn't seem correct to me.

You mean the class that just turns on upkeep for major DPS? Check out some other classes for high APM, Rene doesn't even come close. 

 

6 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

They just need to get more creative with the tradeoffs for providing alac.

True, though I hardly think "trade offs" need to be a thing since you already sacrifice some trait choice and gear stats to provide Alac, dropping your DPS down either way. 

 

7 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I could see 1000 different ways your suggestion could get abused across all modes if it were good, and it were bad, it would just make renegade unplayable.

That's just exaggeration xD 

 

[mandala.8507]

6 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Welllll it is the entire problem of current Alacgade. Their buffing from 1.5 to 2 is so miniscule but people have already detected Spec dominance possibility. If buffing just by 0.5s is all it takes to turn a weak skill into potentially super busted skill, I think it's the entire problem.

It wasn't a miniscule change, it was a 33% increase in base alacrity output. Numbers are relative. Just because a number is small doesn't mean it's effect was small. It's better to think about it as the base cumulative alacrity from using Orders From Above went from 6 seconds to 8 seconds without RR, and from 9 seconds to 12 seconds with RR.

That's a huge change.

[Yasai.3549]

28 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

It wasn't a miniscule change, it was a 33% increase in base alacrity output. Numbers are relative. Just because a number is small doesn't mean it's effect was small. It's better to think about it as the base cumulative alacrity from using Orders From Above went from 6 seconds to 8 seconds without RR, and from 9 seconds to 12 seconds with RR.

That's a huge change.

But that's because it's how the skill functions. 
The skill can't be seen as "oh I just added 2 seconds" it's seen more as "I just added .5s per pulse that compounds into 2seconds more) that nature is what makes it incredibly hard to balance because when you tweak the numbers, you need to tweak at a level of per pulse instead of grand total. 

That's why even such a miniscule change raises its uptime by 33%. That's what I meant, and honestly it feels very volatile. I'd rather it didn't behave the way it is. My opinion tho. 

[soul.9651]

3 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

With heal herald + 2 LL dps condi renegades, you have perma might, fury, quickness, alacrity, protection, resolution, regen and swiftness as well as high resistance uptime and good stab access. The only thing you don't have is aegis, and if you're on a fight where you really need it, you'd be able to swap the heal herald for a healbrand and add in the tiniest bit of concentration on your renegades.

Condi ren is a 40k dps spec and you don't lose that much dmg from pressing Orders From Above, and just under 3k more dmg lost from the overlap of razorclaw's rage. The highest bench for alac dps is untamed at ~35k, but that build is unplayable for most people most of the time. The next highest after that is alac mirage at 30k.

So you can run quickness healer + 3 dps + 30k alac mirage or you can run quickness healer + 2 dps + 2 alac share rens doing ~73k dps together. Assuming your dps players are doing at least as much as the rens would be with their regular rotations (40k each), your subgroup just increased it's dps by 3k from taking double ren alac providers over the best solo alac dps that isn't the borderline unplayable untamed one.

And this playstyle is nowhere near as difficult to execute as other boon stacking methods imo.

I mean depends on the content are u talking about raids strikes or fractals? On fractals even rn if u have enough ar on you, you can just go full vipers alac dps ren and provide that alac, it wont make that much of the difference after the patch from how it is rn in fractals at least, there is no need for a double RR when currently 1 full (vipers)dps ren can do the job(with ton of agony resistence ofc). For raids and strikes renegade is just dead as alac source.. i dont remeber seeing any other alac besides mech in there for a while now.. plus power alac ren rly needs this since the only place where you would see it is fractals aswell.. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by soul.9651

[mandala.8507]

2 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

there is no need for a double RR when currently 1 full dps ren can do the job(with ton of agony resistence ofc)

It's not double RR tho, it's double LL, meaning you don't lose that extra percent dmg from Kalla's Fervor. Totally different than double RR. I agree, double RR is still not even remotely good. Double LL is the best dps alacrity source in the game, though, I'm pretty sure.

[soul.9651]

27 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

It's not double RR tho, it's double LL, meaning you don't lose that extra percent dmg from Kalla's Fervor. Totally different than double RR. I agree, double RR is still not even remotely good. Double LL is the best dps alacrity source in the game, though, I'm pretty sure.

Well we will see how it will go once the patch goes live, but i doubt everyone will be spamming ren at least at fract cms, plus weaver got some nice buffs so that one will be spammed for sure in higher kp groups. And in raids or strikes people still gonna play HAM mainly as their alac source just because how safe people feel with it there. Plus speaking about fractals rn everything dies within seconds anyway thanks to the power creep and power meta.

Edited February 5, 2023 by soul.9651

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I think the ability to shore up alacrity uptime for the group even when going full dps is part of the class's identity and I wouldn't want to see it removed entirely just to make balance easier. You bring up how chrono is now, but Chrono is probably the most corrupted and distorted elite spec thematically in the game. That traitline is a Frankensein's monster of mishmashed modifiers and the class lost all of its charm because of it. Also, mediocre solo alac would make Orders From Above unpressable outside of group play.

If they make Orders from Above self-only without RR, but give it the same duration as with RR, I'd say that would make Orders from Above more useful when playing solo.