Feb 3 preview for rev

[Aeolus.3615]

On 2/5/2023 at 4:55 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

(snip)

TLDR: the kinds of changes we are getting are not indicative of Anet making it easy for people to camp offensive Vindicator for a desirable high damage power DPS build. They are indicative of a gameplay that uses both aspects ... which shouldn't be a shocker considering that's the original concept.

In which actually will be a shocker  for most due how game performance rellies on min max builds to get carried being at damage or support, if Vindicator dont do one of those or both players will QQ.

A good way to address this is creating new stats, celestial should be fine but theres some stats that vindi dont require in most builds, something more offensive with heal stats due how vindicator needs both for both setups coexist at same time, theres zealots stats but since doesnt carry and it's not meta and its suboptimal will be stated as trash stats.

Theres still the option for Anet to adress stats system from player class and armor, its nuts i know, but it's one way to fix and rebalance many classes in one go.

 

Also what made the misleading effect of vindicator being a selfish healer or dps, its the legend system mostly Victor elite skill where players wanted to min max it's outcome by sacrificing all damage (its a min max game and classes that dont exist for min max will have a hard time against classes that were designed by ANet to min max).

Edited February 10, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[draxynnic.3719]

26 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

A good way to address this is creating new stats, celestial should be fine but theres some stats that vindi dont require in most builds, something more offensive with heal stats due how vindicator needs both for both setups coexist at same time, theres zealots stats but since doesnt carry and it's not meta and its suboptimal will be stated as trash stats.

 

Possibly something like Diviner's but with healing power instead of boon duration. Rev can get away with lower Precision if you run Invocation.

Still has the problem of being a support build without quickness or alacrity in PvE, but maybe advanced groups could run with an alacdps, a quickdps, and a healdps.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

In which actually will be a shocker  for most due how game performance rellies on min max builds to get carried being at damage or support, if Vindicator dont do one of those or both players will QQ.

A good way to address this is creating new stats, celestial should be fine but theres some stats that vindi dont require in most builds, something more offensive with heal stats due how vindicator needs both for both setups coexist at same time, theres zealots stats but since doesnt carry and it's not meta and its suboptimal will be stated as trash stats.

Theres still the option for Anet to adress stats system from player class and armor, its nuts i know, but it's one way to fix and rebalance many classes in one go.

 

Also what made the misleading effect of vindicator being a selfish healer or dps, its the legend system mostly Victor elite skill where players wanted to min max it's outcome by sacrificing all damage (its a min max game and classes that dont exist for min max will have a hard time against classes that were designed by ANet to min max).

Whether players are shocked or not is pretty irrelevant. What determines how Vindicator works is the concept of the spec and in this case, the concept is a swap between offensive and defensive skills.

The fundamental problem here is that  Vindicator accesses 3 legends that effectively covers any deficiency in its play while maintaining a very high level of performance, the only limitation being accessible energy. That to me is a significant contradiction to Anet's balancing philosophy. I think it's bold you suggest 'fixing' Vindicator with a customized stat combo that would IMPROVE its performance further. It's evident to me that your interest here isn't any situation where Vindicator is balanced at all. 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

48 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Whether players are shocked or not is pretty irrelevant. What determines how Vindicator works is the concept of the spec and in this case, the concept is a swap between offensive and defensive skills.

The fundamental problem here is that  Vindicator accesses 3 legends that effectively covers any deficiency in its play while maintaining a very high level of performance, the only limitation being accessible energy. That to me is a significant contradiction to Anet's balancing philosophy. I think it's bold you suggest 'fixing' Vindicator with a customized stat combo that would IMPROVE its performance further. It's evident to me that your interest here isn't any situation where Vindicator is balanced at all. 

 

 

Have you seen firebrand?

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Have you seen firebrand?

Yes ... what's your point? That Vindicator should be mega broken for PVE because Firebrand exists?

Again, Vindicator at this point is simply a Revenant that has access to 3 legends now it's got two dodges. That's already an exceptional situation here, yet we have people suggesting it get its own set of customized armor stats and that STILL might not be enough because it would ONLY be a 'support build without Alac or Quickness'. I think all sense of reality is just lost on some people at this point. 

Your post indicates to me you think Vindicator is nothing until it becomes the next broken Firebrand. Absurd.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[soul.9651]

17 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes ... what's your point? That Vindicator should be mega broken for PVE because Firebrand exists?

Again, Vindicator at this point is simply a Revenant that has access to 3 legends. That's already an exceptional situation here. 

My point is that it doesnt cover those deficiencies that effectively compared to other more problematic specs. This isnt about me asking for buffs just pointing that other broken specs already exist. (And i would rather see more nerfs to those specs rather making every spec do everything). Even with "3" legends its nothing

Edited February 10, 2023 by soul.9651

[soul.9651]

21 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

Your post indicates to me you think Vindicator is nothing until it becomes the next broken Firebrand. Absurd.

No i dont wanna it become the Next firebrand 🙂 me saying its nothing now means its nowehere as broken. And like i said i would rather see them nerfing overperforming specs instead of buffing for example vindicator for it to become "the next firebrand" 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, soul.9651 said:

My point is that it doesnt cover those deficiencies that effectively compared to other more problematic specs. This isnt about me asking for buffs just pointing that other broken specs already exist. (And i would rather see more nerfs to those specs rather making every spec do everything). Even with "3" legends its nothing

You need to listen yourself here. You literally just said that Vindicator does not cover its build deficiencies with access to 3 legends as effectively as one of the most broken specs in the game ... so it's a nothing.

Do you not realize that's absolutely absurd? Have you considered FB has been identified as a problem spec by Anet and they are making changes to FB to address this? Do you not see how this makes FB in NO WAY a relevant point of comparison to justify buffing something? 🙄

Again, there is no honest discussion here if you can't acknowledge that even within the Revenant class itself, Vindicator is an exceptional problematic case to buff because of its access to 3 legends at it's current level of performance. That's just obvious. If you can't see that, you're just far too focused on the things it's not and ignoring the things it is. 

Bottomline: it's nonsense to justify breaking a spec, just because other broken specs exist. That's a no-go discussion right there. 

Again, Anet said this:

We'd like to see vindicator builds move into more offensive trait choices to make up for the loss in damage, instead of remaining a damage threat while focusing on defensive traits

That's just a fancy way to say if you want something, you should have to make meaningful choices to get it. That's how we balance the game. That's not limited to PVP/WvW either. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Oh Obtena ... I don't think I read anywhere of anyone wanting to break vindicator or make it as busted as firebrand.  And I saw you were stuck on what the concept of vindicator is and that's how it should play. Um you do realize that before release the alliance skills would flip to the opposite skill when cast? well they threw that out because it sucked and was more idealistic than useful. That already changed the whole concept of how it was supposed to be played. So Idk why you're hung up on "how it's supposed to be" when things change and evolve based on need and QoL. I think we can all agree that more skills of the same power is more overpowered. More skills of less power and all sharing a resource pool is less overpowered. You can only cast so many skills in a row before having more skills becomes redundant. Switching to viktor for healing sounds overpowered at first, until you realize that vik and archy share the same energy, you get locked out of archy for some time taking away a nice bit of damage and a lot of needed utility, your heal skill in vik isn't the best for self sustain, the urn is... well its the urn.

i think you're being a little to rigid in your thinking, you think everything has to be a specific way to work but because we have unique classes were gonna have balancing issues because not everything can be 1=1. I don't think people have a problem with having to invest a certain way to get either offense or support, and not both. But I do think people are annoyed that the alliances are focused on totally seperate things, and maybe my interpretations wrong, but I think people would have liked for viktor to be more useful on the selfish side of things and be more useful for a dps or dueling builds as opposed to having party support tacked on while each alliance legend lacks both quick and alac making it an odd duck for team comps outside of straight up dps. Which leads to why everyone classifies it as a dps build because thats the easiest role to fill in a community determined meta squad composition.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

2 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by ScottBroChill.3254

[Yasai.3549]

5 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

Oh Obtena ... I don't think I read anywhere of anyone wanting to break vindicator or make it as busted as firebrand.  And I saw you were stuck on what the concept of vindicator is and that's how it should play. Um you do realize that before release the alliance skills would flip to the opposite skill when cast? well they threw that out because it sucked and was more idealistic than useful. That already changed the whole concept of how it was supposed to be played. So Idk why you're hung up on "how it's supposed to be" when things change and evolve based on need and QoL. I think we can all agree that more skills of the same power is more overpowered. More skills of less power and all sharing a resource pool is less overpowered. You can only cast so many skills in a row before having more skills becomes redundant. Switching to viktor for healing sounds overpowered at first, until you realize that vik and archy share the same energy, you get locked out of archy for some time taking away a nice bit of damage and a lot of needed utility, your heal skill in vik isn't the best for self sustain, the urn is... well its the urn.

i think you're being a little to rigid in your thinking, you think everything has to be a specific way to work but because we have unique classes were gonna have balancing issues because not everything can be 1=1. I don't think people have a problem with having to invest a certain way to get either offense or support, and not both. But I do think people are annoyed that the alliances are focused on totally seperate things, and maybe my interpretations wrong, but I think people would have liked for viktor to be more useful on the selfish side of things and be more useful for a dps or dueling builds as opposed to having party support tacked on while each alliance legend lacks both quick and alac making it an odd duck for team comps outside of straight up dps. Which leads to why everyone classifies it as a dps build because thats the easiest role to fill in a community determined meta squad composition.

I think the sentiment comes from the fact that Rev's two previous Especs are both kinda semi supportish in nature, and meta builds revolving them are mostly Boon supportive in intention.

 

When people call for Herald, they usually want QuickDPS, when people call for Rene, they usually want AlacDPS. You often do get to play pure DPS on either specs but you can't help but feel, "hey, what if I had tools that JUST FACILITATED PURE DAMAGE" 

 

At least that's how I feel about Alliance. When Anet was like "aight guys it's intended to be a DPS spec" I imagine people would be expecting "oh yea just raw damage and power, maybe something with more DPS focused utilities which hopefully pairs well with Shiro or something" then you see the weird flip skilling and be like oh wtf is this.

 

The skill split and turned into Arch only or Vik only was very much needed in order to let people flow through the DPS rotations without getting roadblocked by Vik's flip skills but the sentiment remains: hey, what if I had tools that JUST FACILITATED PURE DAMAGE

[Aeolus.3615]

11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Whether players are shocked or not is pretty irrelevant. What determines how Vindicator works is the concept of the spec and in this case, the concept is a swap between offensive and defensive skills.

The fundamental problem here is that  Vindicator accesses 3 legends that effectively covers any deficiency in its play while maintaining a very high level of performance, the only limitation being accessible energy. That to me is a significant contradiction to Anet's balancing philosophy. I think it's bold you suggest 'fixing' Vindicator with a customized stat combo that would IMPROVE its performance further. It's evident to me that your interest here isn't any situation where Vindicator is balanced at all. 

 

 

And u understood it almost very well except the last part, cause it is what matter's to the players and is how most players choose their classes and how builds are selected to parties, imagine a mix of zealots and dragon stats, with power precision ferocity and healing power similiar to the spvp one which i totally forgot the name, those stats dont exist outside spvp and would help the spec in another game modes for both elites.

Theres no stats in game that fits the gameplay of the 2 legends and we have many that could do it like  cleric, zealots, celestial and marshal, but we all know how poorly performance it has in most of this stats reason why players tend to min max with have better results than the suposed need to serve both roles.

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[Ashford.8540]

45 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I think the sentiment comes from the fact that Rev's two previous Especs are both kinda semi supportish in nature, and meta builds revolving them are mostly Boon supportive in intention.

 

When people call for Herald, they usually want QuickDPS, when people call for Rene, they usually want AlacDPS. You often do get to play pure DPS on either specs but you can't help but feel, "hey, what if I had tools that JUST FACILITATED PURE DAMAGE" 

 

At least that's how I feel about Alliance. When Anet was like "aight guys it's intended to be a DPS spec" I imagine people would be expecting "oh yea just raw damage and power, maybe something with more DPS focused utilities which hopefully pairs well with Shiro or something" then you see the weird flip skilling and be like oh wtf is this.

 

The skill split and turned into Arch only or Vik only was very much needed in order to let people flow through the DPS rotations without getting roadblocked by Vik's flip skills but the sentiment remains: hey, what if I had tools that JUST FACILITATED PURE DAMAGE

 

the issue comes down to a small minority of loud players that complain constantly about classes needing to be gutted and nerfed, or left alone, then ANet listening to those people and making changes which ultimately leads to a 2-3 class meta in PVP and eventually PVE. The only reason spellbreaker and cat don't get hit as hard as vind does is because not as many people complain about those specs because cat is brain dead button mashing and spellbreaker is a minimal rotation spec and the loudest players are always the laziest and/or biased.

 

That's why I think the meta moving forward in future patches is to probably get a Herald Setup because Anet is gonna keep listening to these people and it will eventually get gutted, then renegade, then back to herald much later and it will go back to the 2-3 class meta of firebrand/mech or necro/ ranger, because ANet never learns a dam thing or get a more competent balance team because they don't care, their market is not the US anyway.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Ashford.8540

[Yasai.3549]

13 minutes ago, Ashford.8540 said:

The only reason spellbreaker and cat don't get hit as hard as vind

1. Warrior has been slapped hard forever due to massive complaints but the CC nerf was what finally toned down the discussion because it KILLED alot of Warrior builds. 

2. Cata is still being debated over in Ele subforum. Anet just isn't taking action yet. 

15 minutes ago, Ashford.8540 said:

cat is brain dead button mashing and spellbreaker is a minimal rotation spec

I think you need to play these more before you make such comments. 

 

16 minutes ago, Ashford.8540 said:

That's why I think the meta moving forward in future patches is to probably get a Herald Setup because Anet is gonna keep listening to these people and it will eventually get gutted, then renegade, then back to herald much later and it will go back to the 2-3 class meta of firebrand/mech or necro/ ranger

Literally goes against their own balance decision of giving every Class a Spec that can provide Quick or Alac. They did so in order to diversify the PvE scene while PvP is always subject to very minute changes in the meta. Right now diversity wise, PvP is more diverse than 5 years ago. But build wise, it's slowly being strangulated, not due to devs doing knee-jerk nerfs, but because they really just rework stuff for no reason that kills a couple builds every balance change. 

 

18 minutes ago, Ashford.8540 said:

ANet never learns a dam thing or get a more competent balance team because they don't care, their market is not the US anyway.

So who exactly are they marketing to? Aliens? 

[Yasai.3549]

20 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Theres no stats in game that fits the gameplay of the 2 legends

Exactly. This is a Legend issue. 

Rev has had this problem from the very beginning where you struggle to find 2 Legends to make full use of your chosen stat, and when you do, you struggle to find two Legends that work well with each other. I mean just look at some of the more popular Legend combinations and you find each of them have fundamental synergy issues:

Shiro + Jalis: Shiro is designed to chase down and deal alot of damage, Jalis wants to be a solid rock and win a battle of attrition

Shiro + Herald: Herald is designed to be a boon master and camp Herald will using actives as situation needs, Shiro wants to go YEET 

Mallyx + Jalis: Mallyx wants to keep on their target and torment them, Jalis kinda just chills until you really mess up on Mallyx and need to fall back on its kit. 

Ventari + Herald: Ventari heals best when allowed to be equipped, but the moment you swap off Ventari your healing influence is severely diminished while you're doing some HoT and boon sharing on Herald. 

Legendary Alliance is the epitome of two Legends just not working together on a fundamental gameplay level. I bet people absolutely dig that stuff cos "BUT ITS TRUE TO LORE! THEY'RE ALWAYS FIGHTING! HAHA CUTE" but on a gameplay level it sucks, it really just sucks. 

 

Honestly, at this point I'd wish the whole Legend swap system went tf away and we're given the option to pick which utilities we want of the two Legends equipped and have those equipped. In exchange, Legend Swap mechanic should be given a new effect where the Legend you invoke gives you benefits based on which Espec you are using. 
 

[Ashford.8540]

13 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

1. Warrior has been slapped hard forever due to massive complaints but the CC nerf was what finally toned down the discussion because it KILLED alot of Warrior builds. 

2. Cata is still being debated over in Ele subforum. Anet just isn't taking action yet. 

I think you need to play these more before you make such comments. 

 

Literally goes against their own balance decision of giving every Class a Spec that can provide Quick or Alac. They did so in order to diversify the PvE scene while PvP is always subject to very minute changes in the meta. Right now diversity wise, PvP is more diverse than 5 years ago. But build wise, it's slowly being strangulated, not due to devs doing knee-jerk nerfs, but because they really just rework stuff for no reason that kills a couple builds every balance change. 

 

So who exactly are they marketing to? Aliens? 

1. being unkillable is what I wouldn't call balanced

2. not that hard to learn even if your a two thumb andy, just mash the buttons, switch element in cata's case, and spellbreaker needs to do 1/3 their rotation correctly to stunlock maybe 1.5 for general dps. wow so complex

3. Korea, it's pretty obvious it's korea,

Edited February 11, 2023 by Ashford.8540

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

I always felt like Herald should have been the alacrity boon spec because it would synergize best due to having actual meaningful cooldowns in its utilities. Renegade could have been just raw condi dps with the extra F skills more focused on unique dps team support buffs like moving razor claw to one or sharing out Kalla's Fervor few a few seconds. And Vindicator could have been quickness related... Either quickdps if they felt like having it on red, or quickheal if they built it into blue. not sure which I'd like best.

Edited February 11, 2023 by UncreativeGreen.2019

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Exactly. This is a Legend issue. 

Rev has had this problem from the very beginning where you struggle to find 2 Legends to make full use of your chosen stat, and when you do, you struggle to find two Legends that work well with each other. I mean just look at some of the more popular Legend combinations and you find each of them have fundamental synergy issues:

Shiro + Jalis: Shiro is designed to chase down and deal alot of damage, Jalis wants to be a solid rock and win a battle of attrition

Shiro + Herald: Herald is designed to be a boon master and camp Herald will using actives as situation needs, Shiro wants to go YEET 

Mallyx + Jalis: Mallyx wants to keep on their target and torment them, Jalis kinda just chills until you really mess up on Mallyx and need to fall back on its kit. 

Ventari + Herald: Ventari heals best when allowed to be equipped, but the moment you swap off Ventari your healing influence is severely diminished while you're doing some HoT and boon sharing on Herald. 

Legendary Alliance is the epitome of two Legends just not working together on a fundamental gameplay level. I bet people absolutely dig that stuff cos "BUT ITS TRUE TO LORE! THEY'RE ALWAYS FIGHTING! HAHA CUTE" but on a gameplay level it sucks, it really just sucks. 

 

Honestly, at this point I'd wish the whole Legend swap system went tf away and we're given the option to pick which utilities we want of the two Legends equipped and have those equipped. In exchange, Legend Swap mechanic should be given a new effect where the Legend you invoke gives you benefits based on which Espec you are using. 
 

Broadly speaking, I think what you're referring to here is part of the flavour of revenant. You're not supposed to have two legends that are both doing exactly the same thing, you want legends that complement one another. Shiro, for instance, doesn't actually do THAT much more damage than Jalis or Glint (albeit enough that DPS builds will prefer Shiro in PvE unless they really want the stability), but provides a lot of mobility. You'll note that Jalis/Glint are among the closest in function - power legends that have relatively low mobility with a lot of buffs - but aren't one of the popular combinations (although it is a quick switch from a typical quickdps herald when you want the stability). Having different, but complementary, capabilities in the legends is one of the strengths of the profession, not a weakness.

The problem is that you need both legends to benefit from the same stat set. You wouldn't run Mallyx with a pure power legend under most circumstances, nor would you run Ventari with a pure power legend unless you really wanted projectile destruction, because taking gear that suits one legend would work poorly with the other. Alliance Stance has the problem that, short of something like celestial (you can make that work, since Archemorus does dish out some conditions and you can leverage Abyssal Chill, buuuuut...), they just want completely different stat sets, but they're locked together. So in practice, you have one that actually fits your build, and the other is... kinda just hanging on there. If you're a DPS build, you might pull out Viktor if the party healing really needs that extra 5%. If you're a healing build, you miiiight pull out Archemorus if you know you're not going to need Viktor's healing for a bit. But you're generally not going to be using both equally.

Which is possibly a design feature, rather than a bug - since it got changed from being flipover skills, it's essentially two legends in one, but the incompatibility between them means that you're really only going to be using one of them most of the time.

[Yasai.3549]

25 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Which is possibly a design feature, rather than a bug - since it got changed from being flipover skills, it's essentially two legends in one, but the incompatibility between them means that you're really only going to be using one of them most of the time.

Ironic, because the way Revenant was originally set up before its consistent gutting over the years, was basically this: 
You are meant to stay in the Legend you need at the very moment and switch if you need the other Legend for specific reasons. 

Over the years Energy management has become a huge bloody issue (either due to really stinky balancing of Energy costs or straight nerfs thanks to Anet's balance team) which in turn developed the "You're not supposed to camp legends" rule. 

And now, we're back to square one: camping half a Legend because the other half is not really needed, especially so if you're currently playing a DPS focused build and role. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[draxynnic.3719]

15 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Ironic, because the way Revenant was originally set up before its consistent gutting over the years, was basically this: 
You are meant to stay in the Legend you need at the very moment and switch if you need the other Legend for specific reasons. 

Over the years Energy management has become a huge bloody issue (either due to really stinky balancing of Energy costs or straight nerfs thanks to Anet's balance team) which in turn developed the "You're not supposed to camp legends" rule. 

And now, we're back to square one: camping half a Legend because the other half is not really needed, especially so if you're currently playing a DPS focused build and role. 

I think there's a degree of the game evolving around it as well. For instance, it was also around the time at which HoT was being developed that stats were reworked so that sets that weren't berserker actually mattered. Previously, things like healing power and condition damage scaled so poorly in practice, and the base values for condis were high enough, that you'd pretty much just go berserker regardless of your build and do fine. Switching to Ventari for healing, to give one example, would have made more sense in that environment - but that environment was gone by the time HoT formally released. We also see a bit of that thinking affecting other professions as well. Elementalist attunements and weaponswapping in general was also originally supposed to be about adaptability, but it became "swap in order to do more damage".

It's not surprising that revenant had the same thing happen when it comes to legend use. If you want to maximise damage, you generally want to burn your energy, swap, burn your energy again, swap, and repeat. The simplest application of this principle is running Shiro, using Impossible Odds until energy runs low, and then swap to Jalis to do the same with the hammers. However, if there's something other than sheer damage that you need, it does pay sometimes to be a little more conservative and stay in the legend that provides what you actually need. Granting stability with Jalis is a good example. Quickdps herald gameplay is generally based around switching to Shiro during periods when all the facets have enough recharge remaining that legend swap will recharge before the facets do. The PvE herald spike usually relied on using Shiro to get to the target and Glint to get the energy back to deliver a spike.

But again, this relies on the two being complementary. I couldn't really see anyone using Viktor and Archemorus in the same build if they weren't bolted together. Heck, until Archemorus was buffed, people preferred playing Vindicator with Shiro/Jalis. (Although Mallyx/Alliance celestial vindicator is fun in open world.)

[Yasai.3549]

21 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

But again, this relies on the two being complementary. I couldn't really see anyone using Viktor and Archemorus in the same build if they weren't bolted together. Heck, until Archemorus was buffed, people preferred playing Vindicator with Shiro/Jalis. (Although Mallyx/Alliance celestial vindicator is fun in open world.)

Funny thing is Vik is actually a very good complementary for Ventari who has been dying for a good healing Legend to pair up with because while Herald "worked", you aren't doing the same sort of pure healing like Ventari was. 

Archemorus is also funny because people have been begging for Anet for another Legend that compliments Shiro or replaces Shiro, and Archemorus fundamentally does do that to a certain degree. 

I wouldn't have minded at all if both Legends were split. They really don't belong tied together other than for lore reasons. 

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Funny thing is Vik is actually a very good complementary for Ventari who has been dying for a good healing Legend to pair up with because while Herald "worked", you aren't doing the same sort of pure healing like Ventari was. 

Archemorus is also funny because people have been begging for Anet for another Legend that compliments Shiro or replaces Shiro, and Archemorus fundamentally does do that to a certain degree. 

I wouldn't have minded at all if both Legends were split. They really don't belong tied together other than for lore reasons. 

Heal herald works well enough when you consider that PvE healers are usually expected to provide boons as well. Glint has little in the way of direct healing, but you still have healing weapon skills, regeneration, protection, and the ability to switch back to Ventari early in a pinch.

But yes, Viktor would be a good complement. Would be better if vindicator could apply one of the key boons.

Splitting them up is... well. The 'two legends in one' nature is basically what stops Alliance Stance from being completely boring from a thematic perspective. The 'legends' are basically ordinary, if skilled, humans with ordinary human classes, it's the combination that makes it interesting. But on most builds you probably can do without them, and the specialisation as a whole might well function better if they were split and balanced separately.

Not sure how to thread that proverbial needle. I suspect one step is for ArenaNet to decide if they want heal vindicator to be a thing. If so, Viktor needs a key boon in PvE, because otherwise he'll never be used in that mode if he's decoupled from Archemorus. Otherwise, Viktor needs to be reworked so that he actually complements Archemorus. Converting him into something more like Jalis or Glint who support more through boons and buffs than Healing Power dependent heals might do the trick.

[Yasai.3549]

5 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Glint has little in the way of direct healing, but you still have healing weapon skills

Reminding us all that Shield definitely needs buffs/reworks/improvements. 

 

7 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Splitting them up is... well. The 'two legends in one' nature is basically what stops Alliance Stance from being completely boring from a thematic perspective. The 'legends' are basically ordinary, if skilled, humans with ordinary human classes, it's the combination that makes it interesting. But on most builds you probably can do without them, and the specialisation as a whole might well function better if they were split and balanced separately.

Reminding us once again that Alliance was a mistake. Really should have went for more interesting characters than 2 guys who basically only existed in backstory. The skills are kinda ridiculous too, for example Vik's Elite is Urn of Saint Viktor which is his own urn of ashes. You then throw that kitten on the ground. LOL.

 

 

9 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Not sure how to thread that proverbial needle. I suspect one step is for ArenaNet to decide if they want heal vindicator to be a thing.

Honestly I'd want them to try something more balanced rather than have two halves being viable. Merge the two kits into one I say, but not in the flip skill way:

 

Healing Skill: Selfless Spirit
Stunbreak: Awakening
Utility 1: Shared 
Utility 2: Nomad's Advance

Elite: Spear

If you take Forerunner of Death:

Shared Utility becomes Scavenger Burst

 

If you take Saint of zu Heltzer:

Shared Utility becomes Tree Song

 

If you take Vassals of the Empire:

Shared Utility becomes Battle Dance

[Obtena.7952]

On 2/10/2023 at 7:57 PM, Aeolus.3615 said:

And u understood it almost very well except the last part, cause it is what matter's to the players and is how most players choose their classes and how builds are selected to parties, imagine a mix of zealots and dragon stats, with power precision ferocity and healing power similiar to the spvp one which i totally forgot the name, those stats dont exist outside spvp and would help the spec in another game modes for both elites.

Theres no stats in game that fits the gameplay of the 2 legends and we have many that could do it like  cleric, zealots, celestial and marshal, but we all know how poorly performance it has in most of this stats reason why players tend to min max with have better results than the suposed need to serve both roles.

 

Hold on ... you speak for yourself here, and that's it. You likely share ideas similar to what other players have, but that does not mean you understand what most players want, or how they play and why you think that means I don't 'understand' what you are trying to tell me. 

I shouldn't have to explain why it's unrealistic to think Anet should to introduce a stat combo that allows optimal play for swapping between the 2 legends but ... I don't really have to because the irony ... you and others are obviously proponents of Vindicator being competitive DPS for teams. You and others are suggesting also Anet create a stat combo to optimize use of both legend use. How do you not see that's ... a contradiction? Why would you need a stat combo to optimize use of both legends when you support Vindicator being changed to be in a competitive DPS role for teaming? What's the hidden agenda here? Let me fill in that blank for you:

The reality is that people don't want to have to make meaningful choices. They just want access to everything they already have, access to things they don't have and with no deficiencies. The cherry on top is that you guys even go as far as suggesting you get all that in a way that is optimal and competitive as well, for example suggestion Vindicator get focused stat combos. Set your bar as high as you like I guess because I have no doubt that Vindicator is no exception to how Anet approaches spec balance. 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[arazoth.7290]

Vindicator needs in the following upsumming a small rework for more identity and better balancing in the future:

 

• 1. Energy meld:  2 charges 15 sec cd each, make it consume then the endurance for 25% endurance bar so it gets converted in 15% energy bar.
  •                                The benefits of the selected dodge traitline gets triggered too for 50% effect because only 25% endurance consumed.
•  

2. Mid row traits:

 

Reaver's Curse

Angsiyan's Trust

Song of Arboreum

this traitline row should work around vindicator switching between archemorus and saint viktor.

 

When you switch between each other, the active side should get bonus effect on the 2 abilities first used.

This way archy can give saint viktor for example some extra cc, boons, damage.

And saint viktor can give archy this way for example some extra support like boons, healing.

 

These bonus effects can be used on allies or enemies, so you can choose where you want to have it hit or spent, this gives some decision and more thinking where and when you want it be used.

 

 

OR

 

 

the alliance stance change could be a 5 second cd, this isn't to abnormal high but also not too low that you can switch on and off, so it still requires thinking which one you want to be in.

 

 

You could make archemorus or viktor meld with another legend. 

that could add 2 options ontop of my idea in mid row traitline. I would though still keep all 3 to activate but only 2 of them can meld according to following mid row traits. ==>

 

•1st traitline mid) archy can meld with shiro, mallyx.

•2nd traitline mid) archy and viktor meld together like described in first post.

•3rd traitline mid) viktor can meld with centaur and jalis.

 

But still on changing stances for both ideas, let it give bonus effect on first 2 abilities used when you switched.

 

The idea to seperate them I wouldn't do, this spec is about melding together alliances in unity.