Feb 3 preview for rev

[draxynnic.3719]

I really shouldn't have to say this, but there is no contradiction between the idea of Vindicator facilitating power builds that pretty much eschew Viktor altogether, and having a stat set that allows both to be somewhat supported.

Because they'd be different builds. You'd have one build that's oriented towards getting maximum DPS, somewhere just short of 40k in PvE instance conditions - that already exists. And one that balances between healing and damage, not just based on the stat set but in taking heal-oriented traits as well.

I'd also note that the hypothetical new stat set wouldn't necessarily be something that only ever gets used by vindicators. Ultimately, heal vindicator is never going to be a thing in PvE unless it gets quickness or alacrity, OR a viable DPS/heal hybrid build for it pops up that makes running quickdps, alacdps, healvin, and two DPS a practical alternative to running boonheal, otherboondps, and three DPS.

 

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Reminding us all that Shield definitely needs buffs/reworks/improvements. 

Wouldn't turn it down, but shield does start to look a lot better with heavy healing power investment.

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

 

Reminding us once again that Alliance was a mistake. Really should have went for more interesting characters than 2 guys who basically only existed in backstory. The skills are kinda ridiculous too, for example Vik's Elite is Urn of Saint Viktor which is his own urn of ashes. You then throw that kitten on the ground. LOL.
 

I don't disagree, but they're not going to scrap vindicator and start anew at this point. So it's a matter of making the best of it.

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Honestly I'd want them to try something more balanced rather than have two halves being viable. Merge the two kits into one I say, but not in the flip skill way:

 

Healing Skill: Selfless Spirit
Stunbreak: Awakening
Utility 1: Shared 
Utility 2: Nomad's Advance

Elite: Spear

If you take Forerunner of Death:

Shared Utility becomes Scavenger Burst

 

If you take Saint of zu Heltzer:

Shared Utility becomes Tree Song

 

If you take Vassals of the Empire:

Shared Utility becomes Battle Dance

Feels like you're throwing out a lot here. They did go to some effort to make those skills, and the unique interaction of two otherwise unimpressive 'legends' is what makes Alliance Stance distinct. If two legends can't be made to work, I'd probably be inclined to break the normal rule of legend skills being fixed and allow the player to freely choose either skill for each slot (not through traits, simply by using the same method as other profession's utility skills). You'd probably normally see all of the skills being chosen from one side, but I could see the Viktor 7-9 skills being slotted by a DPS build to react to circumstances.

[Yasai.3549]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'd probably be inclined to break the normal rule of legend skills being fixed and allow the player to freely choose either skill for each slot (not through traits, simply by using the same method as other profession's utility skills). You'd probably normally see all of the skills being chosen from one side, but I could see the Viktor 7-9 skills being slotted by a DPS build to react to circumstances.

I wouldn't mind this either but I feel like choosing it through traits streamlines the playstyle you truly want to embody. 

[X Anthony A.8409]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:48 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

In the context where it came up in this thread, I think it is PvE-oriented. Why? Because the person who said Vindicator was the power spec also classified Herald as the support spec. Herald hasn't been a support spec in competitive modes for a long time - what it has been well known for is a high-mobility glass cannon power spike build, and occasionally bruiser builds that are either power or condi pop up. Meanwhile, in WvW it's been mostly known for getting hammer nerfed into uselessness in other modes before ArenaNet started splitting skills backline ranged power spikes.

But even in a PvP context, I think my observation that it does matter what the skills are holds. The example you use is one where the skillbars are split between two different roles, so you can easily switch between heavy damage and heavy sustain (particularly since in sPvP you can generally get more meaningful healing with lower investments in healing power) depending on what you need. Would we have the same problem if it was, say, Archemorus and Shiro paired, so both skillbars were damage oriented? I think not. You'd have the ability to choose between different methods of how you dish out the damage, which is an advantage over having fewer methods of doing so, but that flexibility can be accounted for and you're still spending the same energy. You have an extra heal, but that can be accounted for in balancing by making them both weaker than they would be if there was only one. You have an extra stunbreak, which is nice, but revenant isn't exactly known for its ability to easily break stuns to begin with - there's a degree to which that might just be average rather than exceptional, and there are potential opportunity costs to switching for the sake of accessing a stunbreak.

Having an additional skillbar that changes the role you play is, I think, a bigger problem to balance (not an insurmountable one, but a bigger one). The thing is that I think that historically there have been fewer builds that have had multiple bars all pushing towards the same purpose. Kit engis being the main one, Jalis heralds kinda count (Glint and Jalis are both primarily power/buff support hybrids, although Glint can also be configured to support a condi playstyle) and elementalists have only started getting builds where water is actually a reasonably selfish DPS option with a bit of sustain (every build needs some) rather than a designated group support attunement in the past year. Most builds with more than the usual number of skills involve some degree of changing your role when you switch bars.

To Respond to your post about saying that herald is not a support spec i respond by saying why has it been giving shield as it elite spec weapon which only reason alot might have forgotten is because it is not used if it were truly not a support spec it would have been giving the greatsword that vindicator got to deal power dps. On top of all this the shields skills are very supportive there is a block and a heal that can heal allies i believe might be wrong as i forgot as i myself dont even use it because of how lame the shields are for pve and the direction trying to make herald the wanna be power dps that does more than vindicator ever could as dps by providing way more boons/utility and cc and yes am talking about stability too as herald is way better for providing that where as using on vindicator is just troll your best bet with vindicator is to be a dps bot and just do dmg and nothing more for the most part which is why is kind of weak imo all other specs even damage ones at least provide something of use meanwhile vindicators utility is locked behind victor which is never used on dps as that is troll.

[X Anthony A.8409]

On 2/10/2023 at 1:44 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

At this point there isn't anymore debate about whether it "should be a competitive dps spec in PvE or not." The fact of the matter is that the spec is one, period. And the 3 utility bars are not currently an issue in PvE. The spec is solid.

It is not solid in PvE at all it does decent damage sure.. but it is a major hindrance to playing in a team. take for example 3 power dps vindicators in a raid like samarog where cc is needed if the vindicators don't slot staff aka rip dps, the class is literally trolling the group on samarog for the cc part of it hence why you'll never see 3 of them in that fight at once. Like the class has major utility/cc issues as relying on staff is not and shouldn't be necessary for going dps as your role isn't to play support like alac ren or quick herald. So yes its lacking compared to every other spec sadly.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, X Anthony A.8409 said:

To Respond to your post about saying that herald is not a support spec i respond by saying why has it been giving shield as it elite spec weapon which only reason alot might have forgotten is because it is not used if it were truly not a support spec it would have been giving the greatsword that vindicator got to deal power dps. On top of all this the shields skills are very supportive there is a block and a heal that can heal allies i believe might be wrong as i forgot as i myself dont even use it because of how lame the shields are for pve and the direction trying to make herald the wanna be power dps that does more than vindicator ever could as dps by providing way more boons/utility and cc and yes am talking about stability too as herald is way better for providing that where as using on vindicator is just troll your best bet with vindicator is to be a dps bot and just do dmg and nothing more for the most part which is why is kind of weak imo all other specs even damage ones at least provide something of use meanwhile vindicators utility is locked behind victor which is never used on dps as that is troll.

Did you just squeeze all that into just two sentences, and not even evenly split? Makes it hard to follow when it's a bit rambly.

There are, however, answers to your question.

First, one of the core issues with rev is that ALL of the elite specs and legends have been designed with at least the potential to support. Herald, however, got a brand of support that, by and large, people just didn't care about that much. Regeneration, a modest amount of might, swiftness, fury, and boon extension - protection was really the only semi-rare boon it added. It didn't offer big heals (although it did manage to complement Ventari marginally better than the other core legends) or a high-value boon like alacrity or quickness. Simply put, ArenaNet grossly overestimated the value of the support herald brought to the post-core meta. The result was that in practice, herald was used almost exclusively as a DPS or bruiser spec. The herald stuff was used either to self-buff or to increase its own durability, with any support to allies being incidental. There was the odd exception, but until herald got quickness, the exceptions never gained traction.

Shield, in this context, was primarily used as a self-defence tool... when it was used at all. The shield trait is self-sustain. Shield 5 is self-sustain. Shield 4 CAN be support, but was often most efficient thrown at your feet for self-sustain if you even bothered at all. On any support build, staff was far more critical, and maybe if you don't want another offhand for mobility or CC you'd take shield on a swap.

Most likely, you wouldn't take it all. Elite specialisations aren't locked into using their weapon, after all. Which, I would note, also applies to vindicator. Traits and legend skills matter much more to the identity of most elite specialisations than their weapon.

If we considered Herald before getting quickness (or in competitive modes where they don't get it), I'd consider vindicator to have been much more likely to become a viable support than herald. It's the one elite spec that actually allows for two legends with significant healing since Kalla's healing was nerfed. All it really needs to be a strong support in PvE is access to one of the highly desired boons. With that access going to Herald instead, though, that relegates Viktor in PvE to being an emergency heal button (like dps firebrands pressing F2 - a good player should be aware it's an option if things go wrong, but it still means something has gone wrong) and makes Saint of Zu Heltzer irrelevant.

Or, to TL;DR it: Herald doesn't have an entire legend bar of heals. Vindicator does.

[soul.9651]

21 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Did you just squeeze all that into just two sentences, and not even evenly split? Makes it hard to follow when it's a bit rambly.

There are, however, answers to your question.

First, one of the core issues with rev is that ALL of the elite specs and legends have been designed with at least the potential to support. Herald, however, got a brand of support that, by and large, people just didn't care about that much. Regeneration, a modest amount of might, swiftness, fury, and boon extension - protection was really the only semi-rare boon it added. It didn't offer big heals (although it did manage to complement Ventari marginally better than the other core legends) or a high-value boon like alacrity or quickness. Simply put, ArenaNet grossly overestimated the value of the support herald brought to the post-core meta. The result was that in practice, herald was used almost exclusively as a DPS or bruiser spec. The herald stuff was used either to self-buff or to increase its own durability, with any support to allies being incidental. There was the odd exception, but until herald got quickness, the exceptions never gained traction.

Shield, in this context, was primarily used as a self-defence tool... when it was used at all. The shield trait is self-sustain. Shield 5 is self-sustain. Shield 4 CAN be support, but was often most efficient thrown at your feet for self-sustain if you even bothered at all. On any support build, staff was far more critical, and maybe if you don't want another offhand for mobility or CC you'd take shield on a swap.

Most likely, you wouldn't take it all. Elite specialisations aren't locked into using their weapon, after all. Which, I would note, also applies to vindicator. Traits and legend skills matter much more to the identity of most elite specialisations than their weapon.

If we considered Herald before getting quickness (or in competitive modes where they don't get it), I'd consider vindicator to have been much more likely to become a viable support than herald. It's the one elite spec that actually allows for two legends with significant healing since Kalla's healing was nerfed. All it really needs to be a strong support in PvE is access to one of the highly desired boons. With that access going to Herald instead, though, that relegates Viktor in PvE to being an emergency heal button (like dps firebrands pressing F2 - a good player should be aware it's an option if things go wrong, but it still means something has gone wrong) and makes Saint of Zu Heltzer irrelevant.

Or, to TL;DR it: Herald doesn't have an entire legend bar of heals. Vindicator does.

They could fix that by reworking energy meld or the urn elite, the highly desired boon part with supp vindicator that is. Well rn at least we finally have a good dps option on vindicator in pve so spec doesnt feel completly useless anymore, but the support builds despite having the potencial still need that attention from anet, and the solution is pretty obvious plus you even mentioning what its missing too. Altho this is only for pve, for pvp or wvw they should be more carefull since its completly different story with the balancing.

[Aeolus.3615]

13 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... you speak for yourself here, and that's it. You likely share ideas similar to what other players have, but that does not mean you understand what most players want, or how they play and why you think that means I don't 'understand' what you are trying to tell me. 

I shouldn't have to explain why it's unrealistic to think Anet should to introduce a stat combo that allows optimal play for swapping between the 2 legends but ... I don't really have to because the irony ... you and others are obviously proponents of Vindicator being competitive DPS for teams. You and others are suggesting also Anet create a stat combo to optimize use of both legend use. How do you not see that's ... a contradiction? Why would you need a stat combo to optimize use of both legends when you support Vindicator being changed to be in a competitive DPS role for teaming? What's the hidden agenda here? Let me fill in that blank for you:

The reality is that people don't want to have to make meaningful choices. They just want access to everything they already have, access to things they don't have and with no deficiencies. The cherry on top is that you guys even go as far as suggesting you get all that in a way that is optimal and competitive as well, for example suggestion Vindicator get focused stat combos. Set your bar as high as you like I guess because I have no doubt that Vindicator is no exception to how Anet approaches spec balance. 

 

I dont see why ur so relutant to it or even Anet altho the stats exist in spvp for it, the stat combo would not have  vitality or would be the minimal stat, would not have toughness and would not even have boon duration,  most probably something like pwr+ prec,+healing power+ferocity, imagine dragon stats but healing power instead vitality for example.

I dont see how class would be broken or something or  anythign  leads to any agenda, that trash talk imo, players would still have to do meaning full choices:

Full DPS: they would not have healing power but theres stats with pwr to get perma boons.. irony.

Fit both roles with new stats: Players have some DPS but also can help team with vitor healing power stats if needed (imo part of the problem is how dumb pve is that this is not even needed), this build have no access to boon duration unless other stats are mixed but that would reduce pwr or healing power stat.

Full support: this builds have boon duration are kinda tanky and have much better heal output altough potatos do more damage than this builds since players dont have pwr stats.

It's liek u say that class is ment to play on some dps and support at same time and i agree with that, but theres nothing much supporting the way that Anet designed the class outside spvp stat system.... The stats would help players be less relutant to try power stats with healing stats in other gamemodes.

 

Note: this stats exist in spvp.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[Yasai.3549]

44 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Fit both roles with new stats: Players have some DPS but also can help team with vitor healing power stats if needed (imo part of the problem is how dumb pve is that this is not even needed), this build have no access to boon duration unless other stats are mixed but that would reduce pwr or healing power stat.

This is highly inefficient. You will end up as a half and half instead of truly being a dual off-role. This is all thanks to the nature of Legend swapping. When you swap, all your influence of that particular Legend or Alliance half evaporates, leaving you with the other. This means you are almost always using only maybe half to 3 quarters of your stats efficiently versus someone who is built do perform in such a capacity (like heal Kalla for example, but even then people rarely run Heal Kalla of all things). 

Right now people don't even run things like Ventari/Shiro with Zealots or something as a half and half build because it just kills both aspects to split your focus like this. It's just not very efficient bordering onto unfeasible for serious content. 

The only way I can see Arch/Vik function on a split focus build is if they add stat conversion to each of the 3 GMs. 

Forerunner of Death: converts/adds x Healing Power into Power

Saint of zu Heltzer: converts/adds x Power into Healing Power 

Vassals of the Empire: converts/adds x Health into Power and Healing Power 

I know I suggested this but honestly it already sounds very busted. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

They could fix that by reworking energy meld or the urn elite, the highly desired boon part with supp vindicator that is. Well rn at least we finally have a good dps option on vindicator in pve so spec doesnt feel completly useless anymore, but the support builds despite having the potencial still need that attention from anet, and the solution is pretty obvious plus you even mentioning what its missing too. Altho this is only for pve, for pvp or wvw they should be more carefull since its completly different story with the balancing.

Not sure about changing the urn to give alacrity or quickness - the urn is a callback to GW1, and therefore should be defensive in nature rather than giving offensive builds. But there are certainly a number of possibilities. Energy Meld. Archemorus already has a skill that grants self-quickness, there could be a trait that converts vindicator self-boons into area boons. Vassals of the Empire could change out one or both of its current boons for quickness or alacrity. And that's just off the top of my head.

 

52 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

This is highly inefficient. You will end up as a half and half instead of truly being a dual off-role. This is all thanks to the nature of Legend swapping. When you swap, all your influence of that particular Legend or Alliance half evaporates, leaving you with the other. This means you are almost always using only maybe half to 3 quarters of your stats efficiently versus someone who is built do perform in such a capacity (like heal Kalla for example, but even then people rarely run Heal Kalla of all things). 

Right now people don't even run things like Ventari/Shiro with Zealots or something as a half and half build because it just kills both aspects to split your focus like this. It's just not very efficient bordering onto unfeasible for serious content. 

The only way I can see Arch/Vik function on a split focus build is if they add stat conversion to each of the 3 GMs. 

Forerunner of Death: converts/adds x Healing Power into Power

Saint of zu Heltzer: converts/adds x Power into Healing Power 

Vassals of the Empire: converts/adds x Health into Power and Healing Power 

I know I suggested this but honestly it already sounds very busted. 

I don't think this is really true. Largely because your build isn't just whichever legend you have at the moment. You could, for instance, get healing while using Archemorus (or Shiro, or Jalis) by using Saint of zu Heltzer and staff (many power DPS builds already use staff for the CC), and then switch to greatsword while using Viktor (or Ventari). Similar to how quickheal herald already needs to have a means of keeping healing up while using Glint. It's also possible that a particular encounter might call for periods of heavy healing between periods of relatively light pressure where you can afford to go full damage.

[Yasai.3549]

42 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Saint of zu Heltzer and staff (many power DPS builds already use staff for the CC), and then switch to greatsword while using Viktor (or Ventari).

Literally not what I'm talking about. Using a weapon or trait =/= using the Legend itself to perform your role. 

Ultimately your role is dictated by how you are statting your character, you don't call yourself a Healer Shiro just because you built Healing Power but use Staff. That just makes 0 bloody sense. You can call yourself Healer Vindicator but you definitely won't be using Arch to fulfil your role, period. 

The entire conversation was about how Alliance is supposedly a "DPS and Healer" combined but in reality, you are only ever "DPS OR HEALER" which is a very big difference and statting for both is wasting everyone's time. Ultimate irony is that Elite Specs are meant to focus a class into a specific style of play and all Alliance does is introduce an alternate form of dodge, but still make you choose between different flavours of Healer or DPS. 

 

And please don't mention stuff like "PvP" or "WvW" those modes are literally if it works, it works, so even dumb stuff like full Zealots Shiro "can work". 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

I dont see why ur so relutant to it or even Anet altho the stats exist in spvp for it, the stat combo would not have  vitality or would be the minimal stat, would not have toughness and would not even have boon duration,  most probably something like pwr+ prec,+healing power+ferocity, imagine dragon stats but healing power instead vitality for example.

I dont see how class would be broken or something or  anythign  leads to any agenda, that trash talk imo, players would still have to do meaning full choices:

Full DPS: they would not have healing power but theres stats with pwr to get perma boons.. irony.

Fit both roles with new stats: Players have some DPS but also can help team with vitor healing power stats if needed (imo part of the problem is how dumb pve is that this is not even needed), this build have no access to boon duration unless other stats are mixed but that would reduce pwr or healing power stat.

Full support: this builds have boon duration are kinda tanky and have much better heal output altough potatos do more damage than this builds since players dont have pwr stats.

It's liek u say that class is ment to play on some dps and support at same time and i agree with that, but theres nothing much supporting the way that Anet designed the class outside spvp stat system.... The stats would help players be less relutant to try power stats with healing stats in other gamemodes.

 

Note: this stats exist in spvp.

The reluctance is pretty simple. You aren't solving any problem here. There are already stat combos that allow people to try power+healing stats in PVE. The fact that these stat combos aren't optimal isn't an issue. The fact that a PVP stat exists that you think would be ideal in PVE is irrelevant.

The reality here is that your justifications for changes you suggest (here and other threads) seem to just be attempts to optimize how Vindicator plays and not fix anything really wrong with it. Your suggestion simply gives players that actually swap legends for its dual nature an optimal set of stats. The irony for me here is that you're still going to complain Vindicator doesn't have competitive DPS or a team role for instance teams, even if Anet did make a optimal stat for it. 

Again, here is a current, core issue with Vindicator: it's just a Revenant with an extra legend. That is a barrier to lots of lower lying problems you want to talk about on Vindicator because that access is significant extra bonus compared to its peers.

Here is the question going through my mind right now: What are people willing to give up to get what they want on Vindicator? because I don't see how the things people want are going to come for nothing while Vindicator exceeds it's peers in how it's conceived, designed and implemented.

But sure, let's just pretend there is nothing wrong with a Rev espec that has 3 legend access, an optimal PVE stat set, competitive DPS and a team role with Healing, Alacrity or Quickness boon share. Completely reasonable. 🤣

Edited February 12, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

44 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

The entire conversation was about how Alliance is supposedly a "DPS and Healer" combined but in reality, you are only ever "DPS OR HEALER" which is a very big difference and statting for both is wasting everyone's time. Ultimate irony is that Elite Specs are meant to focus a class into a specific style of play and all Alliance does is introduce an alternate form of dodge, but still make you choose between different flavours of Healer or DPS. 

Yes, you get it. Even from release, this was a problem and I'm certain it's why people are not in agreement to how Vindicator should work (Anet concept indicates a cooperative dual role but the reality is that the design encourages camping one or the other). Fundamentally, we need mechanics that optimize gameplay on Vindicator through swapping legends. I think the minor traits attempt to do that but there is something off about them. You made some suggestions that were inline with that so ... nice. 

I still feel that there is a problem with 3 legend access though. What a mess Anet made here. 

 

[Kestrel.8634]

Tbh, i would have liked it more if the LA Skills were to switch to their respective counterpart when used (some skills might have to be reworked for this to function though) As in, make them synergize with each other, driving home the point about an "Alliance" between the 2 Legends.

I would get rid of the F3 completely imo

Edited February 12, 2023 by Kestrel.8634

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

12 hours ago, X Anthony A.8409 said:

It is not solid in PvE at all it does decent damage sure.. but it is a major hindrance to playing in a team. take for example 3 power dps vindicators in a raid like samarog where cc is needed if the vindicators don't slot staff aka rip dps, the class is literally trolling the group on samarog for the cc part of it hence why you'll never see 3 of them in that fight at once. Like the class has major utility/cc issues as relying on staff is not and shouldn't be necessary for going dps as your role isn't to play support like alac ren or quick herald. So yes its lacking compared to every other spec sadly.

It's not a "major hindrance to playing in a team." Sure, the spec brings low CC, but the example you gave (Samarog) is actually a bad example despite the heavy CC requirement (also a bad example because Vindicator performs better here than most fights due to Sammy's big hitbox). The supports should be providing the majority of CC for most encounters regardless (yes DPS players should help when and where they can), but with QHerald being a meta pick there's no reason two QHeralds on Samarog can't run Staff, swap to it, and delete the bar mostly by themselves. At that point the "3 dps vindicators" in your example need to do very little besides pop Reaver's Rage. It's like you forget that teams are built with supports in mind and that the main supports (FB, Herald, Druid, etc.) all generally have fantastic CC output by themselves (especially Herald on Samarog)

Edited February 12, 2023 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Yasai.3549]

4 hours ago, Kestrel.8634 said:

Tbh, i would have liked it more if the LA Skills were to switch to their respective counterpart when used (some skills might have to be reworked for this to function though) As in, make them synergize with each other, driving home the point about an "Alliance" between the 2 Legends.

I would get rid of the F3 completely imo

It was originally like this, but there came issues very quickly: How am I supposed to perform my DPS or Heal rotation when I'm forced to waste Energy on the other half of each skill, the half I'm not building stats for. The skill rotation will cuck itself to put it lightly.

 

I've already suggested before that the GM trait chosen could be used to dictate which Alliance side starts as the flip. That way if you run a DPS focused GM like Forerunner of Death, you actually start Arch side up and if you flow through the rotation, you're more likely to swap out of Alliance when you're done anyway. 

Even then, it'll be a clunk bandaid solution. In a perfect world, Alliance is a unique Legend where you can actually choose your utilities between the pair.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[otto.5684]

I am here in hammer pve buff waiting room. It is been over 5 years 😔

[Yasai.3549]

22 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

I am here in hammer pve buff waiting room. It is been over 5 years 😔

> Login

 

> Equip Hammer

 

> Use Hammer 2 on things

 

> It bugs 2 times out of 5

 

> Not today, Hammer, not today (unequips)

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Literally not what I'm talking about. Using a weapon or trait =/= using the Legend itself to perform your role. 

Ultimately your role is dictated by how you are statting your character, you don't call yourself a Healer Shiro just because you built Healing Power but use Staff. That just makes 0 bloody sense. You can call yourself Healer Vindicator but you definitely won't be using Arch to fulfil your role, period. 

The entire conversation was about how Alliance is supposedly a "DPS and Healer" combined but in reality, you are only ever "DPS OR HEALER" which is a very big difference and statting for both is wasting everyone's time. Ultimate irony is that Elite Specs are meant to focus a class into a specific style of play and all Alliance does is introduce an alternate form of dodge, but still make you choose between different flavours of Healer or DPS. 

 

And please don't mention stuff like "PvP" or "WvW" those modes are literally if it works, it works, so even dumb stuff like full Zealots Shiro "can work". 

The very thing you deem as 'not what I'm talking about' is exactly what you're talking about. Your capabilities aren't determined by your currently active legend alone. If your weapon and/or traits provide group healing, you are able to heal while using a legend that provides no group healing. As long as there's a stat set that supports both, your 'DPS OR healing' binary is a false one: you absolutely can have a bit of both.

According to your thesis, heal herald should be a complete fail. Literally the only group healing that Glint legendary skills provide in that build is through the regeneration boon, and even with a 20% bonus due to a trait, regeneration alone ain't gonna cut it. And the rotation calls for being in Glint roughly 2/3s of the time in order to provide quickness. It works specifically because you can use weapon skills, primarily staff, during this period, as well as benefiting from Salvation traits. There are even situations where a heal herald might run Glint/Jalis, relying almost entirely on weapon skills for healing, albeit with the assistance of damage reduction from Jalis. 

Given that a hypothetical power/heal vindicator has access to the healing jump as well as staff and salvation traits, I'm pretty sure that if heal herald can get away with spending more time in Glint than Ventari, a power/heal Vindicator can afford to use Archemorus while still maintaining a suitable baseline healing level, particularly since the potentially have TWO other legends to swap to if they need to up the healing.

[Yasai.3549]

22 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The very thing you deem as 'not what I'm talking about' is exactly what you're talking about. Your capabilities aren't determined by your currently active legend alone. If your weapon and/or traits provide group healing, you are able to heal while using a legend that provides no group healing. As long as there's a stat set that supports both, your 'DPS OR healing' binary is a false one: you absolutely can have a bit of both

You're talking about healing capability, I'm talking about Healing as a ROLE. Example already given: you don't perform your Healer role as Shiro or Jalis, neither do you swap to them for purposes of healing.

 

23 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

According to your thesis, heal herald should be a complete fail. Literally the only group healing that Glint legendary skills provide in that build is through the regeneration boon, and even with a 20% bonus due to a trait, regeneration alone ain't gonna cut it.

You're trolling right? Heal Herald only works because a trait in conjuction with Facet boons provide the Heal over Time. (Elevated Compassion) 

 

The trait CAUSES the Legend to be able to Heal allies through boon application, thus the Healer role is fulfilled. Does any of Vindicator traits CAUSE Archermorus specifically to fulfill the Healer role? Go on, tell me.

 

27 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Given that a hypothetical power/heal vindicator has access to the healing jump as well as staff and salvation traits, I'm pretty sure that if heal herald can get away with spending more time in Glint than Ventari

Again, if there are traits that cause Archemorus specifically to be able to heal, then we can consider it fulfilling dual roles and dual effects. Right now it's Archemorus damage only and Viktor heal only. Dodge trait and Staff are not factors here.

 

Bottomline: you build for Archemorus aka DPS, you aren't a healer. Period. You can "Heal" sureeee but that doesn't make you a Healer role and trying to pass off as one is 100% trolling.

 

 

 

[Aeolus.3615]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

The reality here is that your justifications for changes you suggest (here and other threads) seem to just be attempts to optimize how Vindicator plays and not fix anything really wrong with it. Your suggestion simply gives players that actually swap legends for its dual nature an optimal set of stats. The irony for me here is that you're still going to complain Vindicator doesn't have competitive DPS or a team role for instance teams, even if Anet did make a optimal stat for it. 

 

Yes i quited to point the issue with Vindicator and Victor utils, and then went Anet mode logic u dont solve the problem by fixing, but by giving what it needs to perform good and mask the real issue this is the Anet treatment logic on this game, still while lacking alot of other stats like vitality and ZERO boon duration, which is a no no no for some pve players so there isnt any overperformance, just damage and raw heal while being squishy and bet on active defenses, and if it's to strong give the mesmer patch by removing a dodge in which i believe this dodge should be a leap(similiar to DH F2 leap) with evade frames rather a dodge out of the screen with more aoe clutter.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

You're talking about healing capability, I'm talking about Healing as a ROLE. Example already given: you don't perform your Healer role as Shiro or Jalis, neither do you swap to them for purposes of healing.

Except that if you're using staff, you can be healing while you're in one of those legends.

Additionally, you're also ignoring that not using a stat right now does not mean it's redundant to your build. There are situations where there are significant fluctuations in the incoming pressure, so you could have periods where you're going full damage (within the allowances of your build) because the pressure is low, and periods where you want to give full healing as well. Having healing power as part of your build in that circumstance does not become a waste just because there are periods when you're not using it, because you have it when you DO use it. It's like saying that Vitality only matters when that extra health is the only reason you're still standing. Sure, it's technically true unless you have some trait or other effect that converts Vitality into something else, but most builds can't just organically convert other stats into more Vitality when they need it and then switch to having minimum Vitality when they're healed back up.

11 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

 

You're trolling right? Heal Herald only works because a trait in conjuction with Facet boons provide the Heal over Time. (Elevated Compassion) 

 

The trait CAUSES the Legend to be able to Heal allies through boon application, thus the Healer role is fulfilled. Does any of Vindicator traits CAUSE Archermorus specifically to fulfill the Healer role? Go on, tell me.

Elevated Compassion?🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 

You just exposed your own ignorance:

https://snowcrows.com/en/builds/revenant/herald/heal-quickness-herald

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/revenant/heal-quickness-herald-2/

Heal herald in PvE doesn't use Elevated Compassion. Because it clashes with Draconic Echo, which is where the quickness comes from. The only thing that the Glint legend provides through its skills is a bit of regeneration, although the skills do also trigger Generous Abundance (which will come up again later).

 

11 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

 

Again, if there are traits that cause Archemorus specifically to be able to heal, then we can consider it fulfilling dual roles and dual effects. Right now it's Archemorus damage only and Viktor heal only. Dodge trait and Staff are not factors here.

You keep insisting that dodge and staff aren't factors, but they absolutely are. They are sources of healing while using a legend that doesn't offer healing with the legend. Your healing output might dip while in a non-healing legend, but it won't dip to zero unless you've made no further investment in it.

Dodge trait doesn't need to be Archemorus-specific because you can use it when using Archemorus. Especially considering that if you're thinking about healing, you're probably running Salvation, which augments the heal-on-dodge further, and potentially introduces Generous Abundance (also used in heal herald, incidentally), which adds an area heal to every legend skill used, including Archemorus. In fact, Archemorus and Viktor are extremely well suited to combining with Generous Abundance, since they have low-energy legend skills on short cooldowns.

The binary you insist on just doesn't exist. You can heal while in a legend that doesn't offer healing directly. The tools are there.

11 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

 

Bottomline: you build for Archemorus aka DPS, you aren't a healer. Period. You can "Heal" sureeee but that doesn't make you a Healer role and trying to pass off as one is 100% trolling.

If you're in full DPS gear, yes. Under the current meta, basically yes again, because in PvE at least, healer is expected to bring quickness or alacrity.

Hypothetically, though, Zealot's offers the same Healing Power as the current gold standard of Diviner's. A hypothetical healing equivalent of Diviner's, where concentration is replaced with healing power, would have more. The litmus test would be that a combination of two boondps and a healdps vindicator would need to end up similar in performance to the current setup of boondps, boonheal, and full dps.

Thing is, unless that happens or vindicator gets one of the key boons, Viktor will only ever be used in PvE on solo celestial builds or as a panic button.

Edited February 13, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Yasai.3549]

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Heal herald in PvE doesn't use Elevated Compassion. Because it clashes with Draconic Echo, which is where the quickness comes from. The only thing that the Glint legend provides through its skills is a bit of regeneration, although the skills do also trigger Generous Abundance (which will come up again later).

So what if that's not a meta trait choice? The fact it exists means it is able to supplement the healing if needed, and thus turn Glint into a proper healing Legend. 

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Yasai.3549 said:

So what if that's not a meta trait choice? The fact it exists means it is able to supplement the healing if needed, and thus turn Glint into a proper healing Legend. 

Because when I used quickheal herald as an example of not needing both of your legends to provide direct healing through legend skills to be a healer, I wasn't talking about a build that trades quickness for a little bit of extra healing which would get you told to fix your traits or get kicked in any PvE group once they realise you're providing no quickness. I was talking about a build that is actually used, and therefore demonstrates that full healing on both legends isn't needed. Weapon skills, Salvation traits, and the ability to switch to a legend with more healing is enough for a current meta build, and Hardstuck even recognises the possibility of switching Ventari out for Jalis in order to get stability if you need it. Sure, it'll reduce healing output, but it's viable.

If that's viable, I think switching to Archemorus occasionally on a dpsheal hybrid build could also be viable in terms of healing output. The real barrier is creating an environment where dpsheal hybrid builds that aren't scourge are viable in group PvE group composition.

[Yasai.3549]

12 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Because when I used quickheal herald as an example of not needing both of your legends to provide direct healing through legend skills to be a healer, I wasn't talking about a build that trades quickness for a little bit of extra healing which would get you told to fix your traits or get kicked in any PvE group once they realise you're providing no quickness. I was talking about a build that is actually used, and therefore demonstrates that full healing on both legends isn't needed.

By your same logic, people who sign up as DPS Vindicator but run zu Heltzer are also gonna be kicked unless they get their traits sorted. You keep talking about things like "But Vindicator has heals from all these other sources" but are they really used? 

There is a hard fact here that Alliance is fundamentally a "one or the other" deal when it comes to actual functional builds, and my original statement all the way from the beginning before all this got sidetracked was that it is highly inefficient to build for both at the same time. It's still true, it's fundamentally true that it's inefficient, and it's all because you're not meant to be able to build for both together and have them perform properly vs focusing your stats on a specific build. 

 

12 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If that's viable, I think switching to Archemorus occasionally on a dpsheal hybrid build could also be viable in terms of healing output. The real barrier is creating an environment where dpsheal hybrid builds that aren't scourge are viable in group PvE group composition.

Whatever. Go record a raid or something using DPSHeal Archemorus and clear it so darn cleanly that it  shows everyone it's possible for a new meta. I for one think it's ridiculous since Vindicator doesn't even offer key boons, so you're forcing your subgroup to run an extra BoonDPS because you wanna run "DPSHeal" instead of running a proper BoonSupport and full DPS.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Anonynja.3172]

On 2/10/2023 at 4:28 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

A big part of the problem is that healers really need to have quickness or alacrity to fit in the PvE meta. Scourge can get away with it sometimes due to sheer "I did not give you permission to die" power, but only when the group is having trouble otherwise.

I address this in my rework: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/User:Anonynja/Vindicator_Rework

ANet dumping core alac on revenant was smart. Now we have core options for F2P players to provide quickness and alac, warrior and ranger. But Vindicator losing its heal alac build when they added quickness to Herald has never been revisited. I do think Support Vindi needs to be enabled in PvE exactly as you stated.