Stop trying to make scrapper a "bunker"

[Kstyle.5829]

NOBODY plays bunker.  Nobody has played bunker scrapper in years.  Every single patch you guys are talking about making it a bunker.  Just STOP it shows how pathetically clueless you are about your own game.  The top players who play scrapper play full PVE DPS modifiers just so they can keep up with all your broken EOD classes.   If you want to make a scrapper bunker you can do that now, the problem is it has no damage output to get people off the point.  They just tunnel damage into your face and ignore your pitiful damage until you get pressured off point.  Making scrappers give up even more damage modifiers for survival is not the answer to even your own goal.   The way to make scrapper bunkers would be increasing their base damage and lowering scaling allowing them to force people off point when using avatar or demolisher amulet.  It should be really obvious and it's sad that it takes 4 months to add 1 little buff when every other class gets like 30 changes.  

Edited February 3, 2023 by Kstyle.5829

[Kuma.1503]

There is no base damage in this game. Increasing their damage means increasing their coefficients. 

But you could theoretically achieve something similar by reducing their synergy with crit, and increasing the value they get from power. This would make it less valuable to invest into raw offensive stats while making them hit harder with tankier amulets. 

 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

I was hoping for something else for scrapper I mean we still have no need to change out of the 1, 3, 2 setup. Slapping regen on a trait doesn't make it more desirable, especially when getting to your target faster is more desirable and lack of scrapper movement options. To bunker up we still have to go hard into a DPS spec basically just because of the core trait line set up. Seems more like just trying to push people to play mechanist more in the end, though.

 

Just no idea what they were trying to accomplish here.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

That very much depends on the gamemode and what you're trying to do. If we're talking about solo open world then yeah Mechanist > Scrapper. However if we're talking about WvW then Scrapper > Mechanist. I dont know for PvP last time I tried Mechanist in PvP I did nothing but bunker down to hold a cap but I couldnt exactly do anything on my own against a semi competent opponent. Not to mention mecanical genius was not the garbage we currently have meaning now we have to babysit the mech if we want it to be barely effective.

[Yme.6145]

Is the new trait going to be regenerating health? In that case, it's just plain nerf compared to the Damage Dampener which actually synergises with the spec in the sense that it's delivering benefits all the time, not just when you've blown through the barrier and are losing health. I'm confused why they said on the stream it was only "working some of the time". Is it to do with condition damage? A better way would've been to add some condition duration reduction so that both strike damage and condi damage are covered.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Yme.6145

[Kodama.6453]

26 minutes ago, Yme.6145 said:

Is the new trait going to be regenerating health? In that case, it's just plain nerf compared to the Damage Dampener which actually synergises with the spec in the sense that it's delivering benefits all the time, not just when you've blown through the barrier and are losing health. I'm confused why they said on the stream it was only "working some of the time". Is it to do with condition damage? A better way would've been to add some condition duration reduction so that both strike damage and condi damage are covered.

Damage dampener only really was beneficial to reduce incoming spike damage. If someone wanted to burst you in a very short time frame, then the damage got reduced by 33% (meaning it significantly reduced the risk of getting deleted instantly) and that damage is dealt to you 2 seconds later, so it leaves room for you to sustain yourself.

Against dps (so, constant damage pressure), the trait really doesn't do very much. Constant influx of damage stays constant influx of damage.

So basically the trait was only really helping against high burst, but if you are constantly pressured it was not really doing alot. The trait doesn't actually prevent any damage, it just delays a part of it.

_________________________________

I am kinda torn about that change. On one hand, I really like damage dampener thematically and in gameplay and think maybe a better way to adjust it is making it actually do something against constant damage by making it an actual damage reduction.

Like reducing the amount of delayed damage (20%?), but then just half of that damage applies to you 2 seconds later and the other half is negated. So we have a constant 10% damage reduction and a damage delay to help against burst damage.

On the other hand, rapid regeneration is a nice little buff for heal scrapper, since this build gets an actual useful trait in the master tier for it's healing role. Rapid regeneration will probably be shareable through Medical Dispersion Field and heal scrapper already has alot of access to swiftness and superspeed.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

That's not how damage dampener worked, It reduced all strike damage not spike damage. It was weak to condition damage however. And the only reason for that is most comps refuse to let a scrapper take anything that isn't supplying quickness to the team as a whole so adaptive armor was usually out for lower condition damage.

 

Will it help healing specs at all? Probably not. Rapid Regeneration is going to be a downgrade no matter how you look at it. Since the effects will not stack, if you have both quickness and swiftness on you instead taking only the stronger effect.

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

That's not how damage dampener worked, It reduced all strike damage not spike damage. It was weak to condition damage however. And the only reason for that is most comps refuse to let a scrapper take anything that isn't supplying quickness to the team as a whole so adaptive armor was usually out for lower condition damage.

 

Will it help healing specs at all? Probably not. Rapid Regeneration is going to be a downgrade no matter how you look at it. Since the effects will not stack, if you have both quickness and swiftness on you instead taking only the stronger effect.

It didn't actually reduce strike damage, it just delayed it. You still took the same total damage like without that trait, but a portion of it was delayed by 2 seconds.

So the only upside of it is to reduce the damage you take all at once, aka spike damage.

To show what I mean: Imagine a situation in which you are dealt 1000 damage every second.

With damage dampener, in the first second you receive 667 damage (33% delayed by damage dampener).
In the second second, you also receive 667 damage.
In the third second, you receive 667 damage plus 333 damage which got delayed by damage dampener, which results in 1000 damage total.

So after the 3rd second onward, you a taking the same damage as without the trait. That's what I meant that it does very little if there is constant damage pressure.

Where the trait truly shines is against bursts. If your enemy tries to instantly kill you with a 20k damage burst, but then 6666 of this damage gets delayed by 2 seconds and leaving you 2 seconds to react by healing yourself, that is it's true strength.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Kodama.6453

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It didn't actually reduce strike damage, it just delayed it. You still took the same total damage like without that trait, but a portion of it was delayed by 2 seconds.

So the only upside of it is to reduce the damage you take all at once, aka spike damage.

To show what I mean: Imagine a situation in which you are dealt 1000 damage every second.

With damage dampener, in the first second you receive 667 damage (33% delayed by damage dampener).
In the second second, you also receive 667 damage.
In the third second, you receive 667 damage plus 333 damage which got delayed by damage dampener, which results in 1000 damage total.

So after the 3rd second onward, you a taking the same damage as without the trait. That's what I meant that it does very little if there is constant damage pressure.

Where the trait truly shines is against bursts. If your enemy tries to instantly kill you with a 20k damage burst, but then 6666 of this damage gets delayed by 2 seconds and leaving you 2 seconds to react by healing yourself, that is it's true strength.

I know how it works and that long winded explanation doesn't change the actual facts; strike not spike, it staggered all strike damage which actually helped a lot more than just prevent spike damage. It did nothing for condition damage but that is also because of the meta and the poor use of adaptive armor presents now compared to everyone's desire for quickness in practically any comp. A psuedo regeneration trait that fights with itself isn't really going to be a suitable replacement and just pushes heal based scrappers, what few there are since the mechanist meta, towards a 1, 3, 2 set up.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Yme.6145]

The way I look at it is the main upside of Damage Dampener is that you can generate extra barrier in the 2 seconds you have until the staggered part of the strike damage hits you, meaning you can barrier-heal through it on a power build. With regeneration, you miss the benefits while at full health + barrier and it doesn't help against spike strike damage which is where a lot of the meta is. If you're worried about condi damage, you can always take Adaptive Armor. From the stream they sounded pretty nostalgic about the regen version of the trait so unlikely to change it before the 14th, I think.

[Ghos.1326]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:58 PM, Kstyle.5829 said:

NOBODY plays bunker.  Nobody has played bunker scrapper in years.  Every single patch you guys are talking about making it a bunker.  Just STOP it shows how pathetically clueless you are about your own game.  The top players who play scrapper play full PVE DPS modifiers just so they can keep up with all your broken EOD classes.   If you want to make a scrapper bunker you can do that now, the problem is it has no damage output to get people off the point.  They just tunnel damage into your face and ignore your pitiful damage until you get pressured off point.  Making scrappers give up even more damage modifiers for survival is not the answer to even your own goal.   The way to make scrapper bunkers would be increasing their base damage and lowering scaling allowing them to force people off point when using avatar or demolisher amulet.  It should be really obvious and it's sad that it takes 4 months to add 1 little buff when every other class gets like 30 changes.  

I prefer Scrapper be a bunker instead of being a budget holo 2.0.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

guys what you are talking about

I'm scrapper main

 

in pve 

Rapid Regeneration will synergy better with Medical Dispersion Field, it's acutaly buff to heal quickness scrapper (hqs) as your aoe heal per sec will increst

here is build

Similar it's buff to open word build if you not run bombs/granades

As if you using Hammer + 4 gyros you have barrier, but nothink to heal you off once dmg bypass your barrier (for solo bounty) as on dps you don't have regen (until you cope with supply crate witchout exploding it)

 

in wvw/pvp

it's little buff to cele roaming scrapper

you will have big boomer on top of rapid regeneration 😄

 

it's only nerf to dead heal scrapper in wvw and small nerf to tank hqs in raids, that propably i'm only one of 5 ppl globaly eu that do it  xd 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Kstyle.5829]

On 2/10/2023 at 5:34 AM, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

guys what you are talking about

I'm scrapper main

 

in pve 

Rapid Regeneration will synergy better with Medical Dispersion Field, it's acutaly buff to heal quickness scrapper (hqs) as your aoe heal per sec will increst

here is build

Similar it's buff to open word build if you not run bombs/granades

As if you using Hammer + 4 gyros you have barrier, but nothink to heal you off once dmg bypass your barrier (for solo bounty) as on dps you don't have regen (until you cope with supply crate witchout exploding it)

 

in wvw/pvp

it's little buff to cele roaming scrapper

you will have big boomer on top of rapid regeneration 😄

 

it's only nerf to dead heal scrapper in wvw and small nerf to tank hqs in raids, that propably i'm only one of 5 ppl globaly eu that do it  xd 

I only play PVP hammer dps scrapper and occassionally wvw healer scrapper.  And those are the builds that 99% of scrappers play in pvp.  So I'm glad you're happy but most people aren't.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Kstyle.5829

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Just a first impression but the trait is even more garbage now than it was before getting removed. The healing you gain is underwhelming and unlike before, Scrapper received a very big hit on its superspeed duration meaning not only it is more trash than before but the benefit you get nowadays is laughable. 

 

The only good thing about this patch for Engineer is the pistol buff and Condi Mechanist buff. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Alcatraznc.3869

[Kuma.1503]

I've given up playing DPS Scrapper in PvP. It doesn't bring anything to the table that other things do better. Tools Holo makes the game 10x easier by comparison. 

Ironically, playing a support/bunker Scrapper build is where I've had my most success. It's more difficult to focus than other supports, and provides good damage over the course of a game thanks to hammer and mortar skills. Although you won't be 100-0'ing anyone any time soon, you might find yourself topping damage at the end of the game due to how much staying power you have in fights. Being able to secure rezzes/stomps with function gyro + toss elxir S or defense field is also nice. And you can also invuln stop as well. 

It's not the best build in the game, but's the only niche I could think of for scrapper that other engi builds don't do better. 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[JohnnyRico.8591]

On 2/10/2023 at 7:34 AM, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

guys what you are talking about

I'm scrapper main

 

in pve 

Rapid Regeneration will synergy better with Medical Dispersion Field, it's acutaly buff to heal quickness scrapper (hqs) as your aoe heal per sec will increst

here is build

Similar it's buff to open word build if you not run bombs/granades

As if you using Hammer + 4 gyros you have barrier, but nothink to heal you off once dmg bypass your barrier (for solo bounty) as on dps you don't have regen (until you cope with supply crate witchout exploding it)

 

in wvw/pvp

it's little buff to cele roaming scrapper

you will have big boomer on top of rapid regeneration 😄

 

it's only nerf to dead heal scrapper in wvw and small nerf to tank hqs in raids, that propably i'm only one of 5 ppl globaly eu that do it  xd 

 

 

Not going to disagree with the first part, it benefits the HQS build. The issue is that according to the dev team

"In competitive modes, we're taking another look at improving bruiser scrapper builds and bringing back one of its more iconic defensive traits in Rapid Regeneration."

The change was supposed to be for WvW/PvP, not PvE. And unfortunately, it's not any type of buff for cele roaming scrapper. The damage modifiers from Object in Motion are needed so you can actually do damage, which competes directly with Rapid Regeneration. If you are cele, you might run the superspeed or the stability adept/gm traits, but the master trait pick will always (or should) be OiM.

I think this just proves they have no clue what playing scrapper is like outside of a boonball zerg in WvW, at least.

Edited February 15, 2023 by JohnnyRico.8591

[Kstyle.5829]

6 hours ago, JohnnyRico.8591 said:

Not going to disagree with the first part, it benefits the HQS build. The issue is that according to the dev team

"In competitive modes, we're taking another look at improving bruiser scrapper builds and bringing back one of its more iconic defensive traits in Rapid Regeneration."

The change was supposed to be for WvW/PvP, not PvE. And unfortunately, it's not any type of buff for cele roaming scrapper. The damage modifiers from Object in Motion are needed so you can actually do damage, which competes directly with Rapid Regeneration. If you are cele, you might run the superspeed or the stability adept/gm traits, but the master trait pick will always (or should) be OiM.

I think this just proves they have no clue what playing scrapper is like outside of a boonball zerg in WvW, at least.

Yeah it's not going to help DPS scrapper in any way to lose 15% damage modifier.  Most good scrappers know not to use the build on guildjen with tools/alchemy because you have to take object + explosives damage modifiers to do anything near decent damage but ends up quite squishy.

 

That being said, the new trait is actually very strong.  around 100 health per second with swiftness up and 200 per second with superspeed.  Now this doesn't scale very well with healing power, I tried avatar amulet and dolyek runes, going inventions and alchemy for regen and maxing out regen.  The staying power you have is not really noticeably different than before, it only goes up like 15 to 30 health per second.

 

HOWEVER- I think you can maybe make a build that uses this talent.  My experience is that it is much better just stacking armor and other healing abilities that also don't scale much with healing power.   So I tried inventions for the health every time you use a toolbelt skill and explosives with big boomers.  I ran that with demolisher amulet and dolyek rune and was pretty unkillable with almost 300k healing by the end of the game, but have no ability to push people off point.

 

So I think your best bet is to take explosives, tools, and that new scrapper talent.  Tools with a kit like mortar or grenades so you can at least maintain swiftness and then a bunch of gyros to maintain some superspeed.  I used the demolisher amulet with chrono rune.  Seemed like that build is pretty decent to me.  

 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Kstyle.5829

[Yme.6145]

On 2/15/2023 at 12:48 AM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

The only good thing about this patch for Engineer is the pistol buff and Condi Mechanist buff. 

 

Well, scrappers did get a 125 power buff when at full stacks of Might which is nice.

[Kstyle.5829]

1 hour ago, Yme.6145 said:

 

Well, scrappers did get a 125 power buff when at full stacks of Might which is nice.

no they didn't thats only in PVE

[Kstyle.5829]

Actually I kind of take back this whole post... the new talent is really strong if built correctly.  I'm doing 200-300k self healing a game.  Honestly they are probably going to nerf it with the luck scrappers have.  

Edited February 18, 2023 by Kstyle.5829

[Kodama.6453]

21 minutes ago, Kstyle.5829 said:

Actually I kind of take back this whole post... the new talent is really strong if built correctly.  I'm doing 200-300k self healing a game.  Honestly they are probably going to nerf it with the luck scrappers have.  

What build are you using with it?
I have a hard time to believe that this trait really contributes alot to the sustain in that build, looking at it's numbers in competitive... healing 89 health per second with swiftness is just terribly bad.

[Kstyle.5829]

22 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

What build are you using with it?
I have a hard time to believe that this trait really contributes alot to the sustain in that build, looking at it's numbers in competitive... healing 89 health per second with swiftness is just terribly bad.

It's like 200 hp a second with superspeed.  Added to your normal scrapper regen of like 100-200 its huge.  

Using alchemy and explosions.  Big boomer,  and the trait that gives regen when removing conditions in alch.  Mortar  and elixir gun.  Barrier gyro and blast so that I have 2 stun breaks.  The healing gyro because it give more superspeed than any other healing talent.  Run this with either berzerker amulet and dolyek rune or demolisher amulet and chronomancer rune.  

I think its explosives 3-3-3 Alchemy 2-1-2 Scrapper 1-1-2.  You can take the 10% more healing effectiveness in alchemy if you want but you don't use medkit so maybe that's a waste.. idk.

The reason you don't use avatar amulet is bc scrapper heals don't scale well with it and you need damage or people just ignore you.  With this build I do decent dmg too.  You can give up bulwark gyro for shredder and you can blow ppl up on point more.   In fact shredder is probably better than bulwark in most cases of solo play.  The high armor is good bc it makes regen healing more useful. 

Now if you want more damage you can go explosives with tools + this talent but in my experience if you go that route you better off just taking object in motion for 15% more dmg.  

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Kstyle.5829