Finally some news for Necro Main-Dagger but..

[KukoDane.1327]

I am having a hard time believing these changes to dagger has any real weight to change how much or little rather, it is currently used. 
In this article I will go around my experience as a Necro main who have been trying several builds with this weapon as a main hand weapon, compare it to the other necromancer Power weapons and compare the Necro-Main-Dagger to other classes with daggers. And I will finish with an idea for changes which would make it worth its while to use. 

Firstly, the current Necro-Main-Dagger, with the trait taken into account. 
It is below anyother necromancer weapon you can wield in ANY and all aspects, and these are the following reasons. 
1: The dagger skills are too bizar, with an auto-attack range of 130 and 2nd & 3rd skill being 600. It makes little to no sense that you have to stand almost inside your enemies to generate lifeforce 
but your "real" skills which comes at a medium range have strange utility which HAS NOT BEEN UPDATED in years. (Will talk more about it later in the comparison section) 
2: The 2nd & 3rd skill themselves are poorly made even with the upcoming 14th Feb patch. As their current fault are as followed;
2nd skill: Life Siphon is a channeled ability at medium range which can easily be interrupted as the necromancer does not have many ways to proc proper stability. 
3rd skill: Dark Pact should be awesome with the insane immobilize time but any condition removal would negate this and its easy to negate as the weapon Dagger/offhand can only be used as a power build, and does not make that many conditions on the enemy for them to not remove it with a single condition cleanse of 1. Boon removal is always sweet for any fight, being it boons on bosses or enemy players. 
All in all, its a  strange weak and never changed weapon-skill set which needs and entire overhaul, especially as I now will talk about the other options the necromancer has for weapons in this Necro-Main-Dagger category. The trait is somewhat lacking as its mostly a speedboost and the cooldown is only proc'ed IF you have above 75% health, which means you can have downtime on the cooldown reduction. 

Necromancer weapons that outperform Dagger-Main-Hand. (Reminder that I compare these weapons WITH traits which they benefit from in the builds) 

Axe: As for Power based weapons, we have the lovely Axe with ALOT of damage, boon removal in AoE with almost same cooldown and 5 seconds cripple AND if the enemy is low, a small burst ability triggers. Good condition Rendering with Rending Claws at a 900 range, good power damage and 2nd skill Ghastly Claws which is a beast for 25stack vulnerability bosses compared to the Life Siphon of the dagger. Less "survival" but almost same cooldown a lot more utility and damage.

Scepter: For conditions builds, the scepter is decent, again we have a weapon which removes boons, and even extremely benefit from it as not only, do you remove 3 boons, you actually convert them to their own counterpart as conditions, AND for each boon corrupted this way, apply one stack torment. Along with decent lifeforce generation and the 2nd skill  Grasping dead which cripples for 10 seconds with the trait active, and this Lingering Curse trait is among the best in the game, as it Increases condition damage with 200 flat, and increases duration of your scepter skills with 50% and upgrades your 3rd skill to what I descriped above, you are SET for a condition build in the Curses traitline which heavily increases your crit chance.
Staff:  Great utility weapon, used mostly for part AoE Fear, Part AoE condi clear and bleed/poison/chill AoE, with decent Lifeforce generation. Good for player vs player matches. 
Greatsword: As the Reaper elite spec, you can wield the Greatsword for HUGE AoE damage which is so easy to maintain that it should be illegal. 
This weapon has good power, good AoE, is able to apply Vulnerability, Blind/Cripple & Chilled, got good lifeforce generation with the last patch it got AND Gravedigger which is insanely strong. 
And this weapon dont even have a trait that buffs it.. 

Necromancer dagger compared to other classes using dagger. 
Elementalist Dagger Main: As for the elementalist, Dagger mainhand is a closecombat viable weapon (outperformed by scepter since scepter got the speed buff) 
BUT the dagger for elementalist is extremely versatile as the elementalist can switch elements and therefor use four different weapon sets with a small cooldown window. 
The elementalist as a dagger user gets to benefit from two 600 range gap closers, decent conditions and 600 range auto attacks from Water and crowd control. 
Warrior Dagger Main: Dagger for the Spellbreaker Elite spec is actually strong as you get a short 300 range gap closer which 1seconds slows, a daze which functions best if the enemy is using a skill and increased critical damage on auto attacks and might stacking. The trait associated with this gives benefits according to which hand wields the knife, but they are both decent, not great but decent. 
Ranger Dagger Main: While wielding a dagger for Soulbeast Elite spec, you deal condition damage, its auto attack stacks vulnerability, bleeding, poison and the last 4th hit, all of these conditions.
You get a slice and dice ability as your 2nd skill which deals decent condition damage and helps your pet or yourself if Beastmode is on, to inflict poison. 
You got TWO 400 distance leap, with counts instead of a single cooldown, which also gives you quickness for 3seconds. 
As for traits, you get a 120 bonus to condition flat, with an additional 120 condition damage if wielding a dagger or torch. Both of these weapons cooldowns are reduced (EXTREMELY STRONG for a middle trait) So a 240 condition damage with 20% reduction in cooldowns. 
Thief Dagger Main: This is a unique weapon as you can do both power and condition. 
As Condition, you benefit from the thieves initiative spending  with dual daggers using "Death Blossom", making decent bleed stacks, while yielding yourself evading for half a second. 
This is extremely strong for PvE in experienced players as they got ALOT of dodges lined up. 
As for Power, you benefit from the trait "Dagger Training" giving a measly 160 power in total. Not great, but the dagger/dagger power build still got the evade from "Death Blossom" and the high physical damage from "Cloak & Dagger" combined with "Heartseeker". 
Either or, the auto attack is immensely strong with decent power scaling, bleeding & poison  & weakness procs and a small endurance gain on 2nd succesful strike. 
Mesmer Dagger Main: As a Virtuoso Elite spec, you get to wield a ranged magic dagger throw skillset, which is not only cool, but also strong for both Power and Condition builds. 
Mostly not as the moves themselves apply conditions but from traits and combos. With a whopping 1200 range and being one of the best ranged builds in the game as they still can fight upclose there is really not much to tell about this dagger spec except it got no traits that benefit dagger only. 

Conclusion of comparison: 
So meanwhile other classes has great utility as the Ele, extreme damage and range with no weakness as the Mesmer, gap closers and high damage as Ranger, Thief and Warrior. 
The Necromancer got a 130 range auto attack with small lifeforce generation (but reliable) with an easy to interrupt 2nd skill, and a extremely easy to cleanse 3rd skill, both with 600 range. 
Many of the other builds has synergy if they can pair their main hand dagger with an offhand dagger as well, Necromancer however, got a power focused (with a strange bleeding for some reason coming on the 14th patch) with a condition offhand dagger which can send off conditions and blind, but also have a decent AoE Bleed. Only the warhorn is any real use for the dagger main necro right now. 

My Idea for a makeover of the Main Dagger Necro: 
Conditions! 
We already have a decent set of weapons which greatly benefit from power but only two proper Condition weapons to the "great condi" class,. one of them which is locked behind the expansion: Harbinger. 
Granting these things in a balanced way would be beneficial for the Main Dagger Necro. 

Necrotic Slash/Stab/Bite. 
Not so much Necrotic but more leeching as its mostly doing lifeforce generation right now. 
It could be:
Necrotic Slash: Apply bleeding for a short duration much like the scepter but with a small increase in duration since its melee (its a kitten slash after all) Melee range
Necrotic Stab: Apply Torment & Vulnerability, one stack of each.  Melee Range
Necrotic Bite: Inflict poison (short duration) & chill (not more than one second) (Makes sense for a bite to fester)  Melee Range
Necrotic Siphon (instead of Life Siphon): Low power scaling damage which leeches life but applies conditions on each critical hit. (Randomly between bleeding, poison or torment with different duration timer) Short range of 300. 
Dark Pact: Inflict Heavy bleeding, Poison and torment on your enemy but at risk at own health, either inflicting half these stacks on one self also or taking 20% of ones current life. High cooldown
(Makes sense since the Necromancer was meant to be the "Lets suffer together" class to begin with) Short range of 400. 
With a change to the Quickening Thirst trait: Gain 5% increased damage against Bleeding foes. Dagger skills which critical hit, apply one stack of bleeding (We are playing a necromantic sacrificial dagger build after all) 


Thanks for reading if you managed, hope to hear your thoughts about Necromancer dagger in general and feedback on my ideas. 
 

[Tnanever.3192]

On 2/4/2023 at 5:56 AM, KukoDane.1327 said:

I am having a hard time believing these changes to dagger has any real weight to change how much or little rather, it is currently used. 
In this article I will go around my experience as a Necro main who have been trying several builds with this weapon as a main hand weapon, compare it to the other necromancer Power weapons and compare the Necro-Main-Dagger to other classes with daggers. And I will finish with an idea for changes which would make it worth its while to use. 

Firstly, the current Necro-Main-Dagger, with the trait taken into account. 
It is below anyother necromancer weapon you can wield in ANY and all aspects, and these are the following reasons. 
1: The dagger skills are too bizar, with an auto-attack range of 130 and 2nd & 3rd skill being 600. It makes little to no sense that you have to stand almost inside your enemies to generate lifeforce 
but your "real" skills which comes at a medium range have strange utility which HAS NOT BEEN UPDATED in years. (Will talk more about it later in the comparison section) 
2: The 2nd & 3rd skill themselves are poorly made even with the upcoming 14th Feb patch. As their current fault are as followed;
2nd skill: Life Siphon is a channeled ability at medium range which can easily be interrupted as the necromancer does not have many ways to proc proper stability. 
3rd skill: Dark Pact should be awesome with the insane immobilize time but any condition removal would negate this and its easy to negate as the weapon Dagger/offhand can only be used as a power build, and does not make that many conditions on the enemy for them to not remove it with a single condition cleanse of 1. Boon removal is always sweet for any fight, being it boons on bosses or enemy players. 
All in all, its a  strange weak and never changed weapon-skill set which needs and entire overhaul, especially as I now will talk about the other options the necromancer has for weapons in this Necro-Main-Dagger category. The trait is somewhat lacking as its mostly a speedboost and the cooldown is only proc'ed IF you have above 75% health, which means you can have downtime on the cooldown reduction. 

Necromancer weapons that outperform Dagger-Main-Hand. (Reminder that I compare these weapons WITH traits which they benefit from in the builds) 

Axe: As for Power based weapons, we have the lovely Axe with ALOT of damage, boon removal in AoE with almost same cooldown and 5 seconds cripple AND if the enemy is low, a small burst ability triggers. Good condition Rendering with Rending Claws at a 900 range, good power damage and 2nd skill Ghastly Claws which is a beast for 25stack vulnerability bosses compared to the Life Siphon of the dagger. Less "survival" but almost same cooldown a lot more utility and damage.

Scepter: For conditions builds, the scepter is decent, again we have a weapon which removes boons, and even extremely benefit from it as not only, do you remove 3 boons, you actually convert them to their own counterpart as conditions, AND for each boon corrupted this way, apply one stack torment. Along with decent lifeforce generation and the 2nd skill  Grasping dead which cripples for 10 seconds with the trait active, and this Lingering Curse trait is among the best in the game, as it Increases condition damage with 200 flat, and increases duration of your scepter skills with 50% and upgrades your 3rd skill to what I descriped above, you are SET for a condition build in the Curses traitline which heavily increases your crit chance.
Staff:  Great utility weapon, used mostly for part AoE Fear, Part AoE condi clear and bleed/poison/chill AoE, with decent Lifeforce generation. Good for player vs player matches. 
Greatsword: As the Reaper elite spec, you can wield the Greatsword for HUGE AoE damage which is so easy to maintain that it should be illegal. 
This weapon has good power, good AoE, is able to apply Vulnerability, Blind/Cripple & Chilled, got good lifeforce generation with the last patch it got AND Gravedigger which is insanely strong. 
And this weapon dont even have a trait that buffs it.. 

Necromancer dagger compared to other classes using dagger. 
Elementalist Dagger Main: As for the elementalist, Dagger mainhand is a closecombat viable weapon (outperformed by scepter since scepter got the speed buff) 
BUT the dagger for elementalist is extremely versatile as the elementalist can switch elements and therefor use four different weapon sets with a small cooldown window. 
The elementalist as a dagger user gets to benefit from two 600 range gap closers, decent conditions and 600 range auto attacks from Water and crowd control. 
Warrior Dagger Main: Dagger for the Spellbreaker Elite spec is actually strong as you get a short 300 range gap closer which 1seconds slows, a daze which functions best if the enemy is using a skill and increased critical damage on auto attacks and might stacking. The trait associated with this gives benefits according to which hand wields the knife, but they are both decent, not great but decent. 
Ranger Dagger Main: While wielding a dagger for Soulbeast Elite spec, you deal condition damage, its auto attack stacks vulnerability, bleeding, poison and the last 4th hit, all of these conditions.
You get a slice and dice ability as your 2nd skill which deals decent condition damage and helps your pet or yourself if Beastmode is on, to inflict poison. 
You got TWO 400 distance leap, with counts instead of a single cooldown, which also gives you quickness for 3seconds. 
As for traits, you get a 120 bonus to condition flat, with an additional 120 condition damage if wielding a dagger or torch. Both of these weapons cooldowns are reduced (EXTREMELY STRONG for a middle trait) So a 240 condition damage with 20% reduction in cooldowns. 
Thief Dagger Main: This is a unique weapon as you can do both power and condition. 
As Condition, you benefit from the thieves initiative spending  with dual daggers using "Death Blossom", making decent bleed stacks, while yielding yourself evading for half a second. 
This is extremely strong for PvE in experienced players as they got ALOT of dodges lined up. 
As for Power, you benefit from the trait "Dagger Training" giving a measly 160 power in total. Not great, but the dagger/dagger power build still got the evade from "Death Blossom" and the high physical damage from "Cloak & Dagger" combined with "Heartseeker". 
Either or, the auto attack is immensely strong with decent power scaling, bleeding & poison  & weakness procs and a small endurance gain on 2nd succesful strike. 
Mesmer Dagger Main: As a Virtuoso Elite spec, you get to wield a ranged magic dagger throw skillset, which is not only cool, but also strong for both Power and Condition builds. 
Mostly not as the moves themselves apply conditions but from traits and combos. With a whopping 1200 range and being one of the best ranged builds in the game as they still can fight upclose there is really not much to tell about this dagger spec except it got no traits that benefit dagger only. 

Conclusion of comparison: 
So meanwhile other classes has great utility as the Ele, extreme damage and range with no weakness as the Mesmer, gap closers and high damage as Ranger, Thief and Warrior. 
The Necromancer got a 130 range auto attack with small lifeforce generation (but reliable) with an easy to interrupt 2nd skill, and a extremely easy to cleanse 3rd skill, both with 600 range. 
Many of the other builds has synergy if they can pair their main hand dagger with an offhand dagger as well, Necromancer however, got a power focused (with a strange bleeding for some reason coming on the 14th patch) with a condition offhand dagger which can send off conditions and blind, but also have a decent AoE Bleed. Only the warhorn is any real use for the dagger main necro right now. 

My Idea for a makeover of the Main Dagger Necro: 
Conditions! 
We already have a decent set of weapons which greatly benefit from power but only two proper Condition weapons to the "great condi" class,. one of them which is locked behind the expansion: Harbinger. 
Granting these things in a balanced way would be beneficial for the Main Dagger Necro. 

Necrotic Slash/Stab/Bite. 
Not so much Necrotic but more leeching as its mostly doing lifeforce generation right now. 
It could be:
Necrotic Slash: Apply bleeding for a short duration much like the scepter but with a small increase in duration since its melee (its a kitten slash after all) Melee range
Necrotic Stab: Apply Torment & Vulnerability, one stack of each.  Melee Range
Necrotic Bite: Inflict poison (short duration) & chill (not more than one second) (Makes sense for a bite to fester)  Melee Range
Necrotic Siphon (instead of Life Siphon): Low power scaling damage which leeches life but applies conditions on each critical hit. (Randomly between bleeding, poison or torment with different duration timer) Short range of 300. 
Dark Pact: Inflict Heavy bleeding, Poison and torment on your enemy but at risk at own health, either inflicting half these stacks on one self also or taking 20% of ones current life. High cooldown
(Makes sense since the Necromancer was meant to be the "Lets suffer together" class to begin with) Short range of 400. 
With a change to the Quickening Thirst trait: Gain 5% increased damage against Bleeding foes. Dagger skills which critical hit, apply one stack of bleeding (We are playing a necromantic sacrificial dagger build after all) 


Thanks for reading if you managed, hope to hear your thoughts about Necromancer dagger in general and feedback on my ideas. 
 

Yeah, dagger needs a bit of a redesign or even stronger coefficients and/or extra conditions, like bleed as you mentioned for auto-attacks.  It's crazy how long this weapon has been so weak.  Devs don't seem to play this game.

[Bookah pls.9352]

New dual wielding dagger power concept,

Give the dagger offhand skills to focus, take the focus skills and implement them in a more usable and less niche rework of main hand and off hand dagger focusing on them both being melee power based weapons. Something like 

• Necrotic slash increased damage, reduce aftercast on bite and bite applies chill
• Life Siphon cripples and deals damage while stealing health from target, also generates life force if you're bleeding
• Dark pact deals more damage and remains unchanged
• Soul grasp turned into a throw your dagger at enemy doing what it does now plus removes a boon.
• Spinal Shivers turned into a leap attack that removes up to 3 boons and deals bonus damage to targets with no boons.

You have no aoe but your target will have a harder time trying to escape you, spinal shivers is actually usable normally rather than only against boon targets and soul grasp helps with getting the best out of shivers.

Pros:

Makes focus (new offhand dagger) less niche and pvp only type, retains the current dagger offhand (new focus) for condi core and condi harb, new stabby stabby necro, nice new power leveling option, a mobility skill on a necro

Cons:

Swapping weapon skills around sounds stupid but dual wielding daggers is cooler

Edited February 5 by Bookah pls.9352

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Dagger is the 2nd strongest power weapon necro has behind GS which is reaper exclusive.
Has great self sustain (Life Siphon) and Decent lf generation.

Additionally is the best melee power weapon for competitve where blinds get spammed into our faces 24/7 and very fast aa counters that.

People really don't give this weapon the credit it deserves.

Edited February 6 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

how about this:

 

dagger #1: inflicts 3s of bleed each hit

 

dagger #2: is replaced with a 450-range leap with good damage and 3s weakness on hit, also inflicts self-bleeding upon using it. cooldown: 6-8s

 

hitting dagger #2 or #3 enables the flip skill life siphon (current dagger #2) for 5 seconds

 

[Dr Meta.3158]

Necromancers aren't built to be in melee. The dagger having a melee attack is the main issue with this weapon. Dagger 2 and 3 do not follow the target and so within a pvp environment, are terrible to use in melee range as melee combatants weave around you making you have to spin in perfect sync with them to land dagger 3 while dagger 2 is just simply lost. 

This is why greatsword exists for reaper. Its a better weapon for surviving in melee range but not enough to ever warrant getting into or staying in melee range while reaper shroud is on cooldown.

The optimal play on every necromancer spec is to retreat out of melee range and build lifeforce from a distance. Any weapon that fulfills the criteria of both ranged and lifeforce gaining are the best weapons to use which is staff, axe, focus, scepter, torch, and pistol with the exception being offhand dagger for the crucial condition transfer.

Within pve, non-two-handed power based weapons (mainhand dagger only) are at a disadvantage due to the lower power coefficients delivered to shroud making it so that dagger would have to significantly outperform greatsword or staff in order to warrant use in power builds for just dps alone whereas before the staff rework it just had to outperform axe and putting axe in the position where dagger is now. Now realistically they're both bad for pve but at least axe has viability in pvp for its burst damage, lifeforce gain, and range.

Dagger looks like its supposed to be the sustain/duelist weapon to be paired with warhorn but both fail in that regard.

 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Warhorn and focus will always be terrible weapons as long as they do life steal and not strike damage.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

Anet doesn't touch dagger for over 10 years ... then they increase it's weapon coefficients and people still push for Dagger to be a condi weapon? 🤔

Here is my prediction: Anet continues to make dagger the weapon it already is, just better at doing it ... if they decide to do anything more than they already have in this patch. As for 'reinventing' dagger to some condi monstrosity, the upcoming patch should be a pretty good hint of how likely might happen. 

For some nighttime reading, digging back to the archives: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Main-Hand-Dagger-Condi

As for the changes ... welcome but remains to be seen if it's meaningful. I never really had a problem with dagger damage; it's not an issue that it's not competitive DPS. My experience is that Dagger 2 was mostly a zero sum ... maybe you heal for 4000 but you risk getting hit for the same amount ... so it's like, so what? I can see the reasoning to put some bleed on #3 to encourage timing with #2 but again it feels like it's forcing the concept of the dagger to make it work somehow and reducing the bandwidth for some real interesting concept there. 

My hope is that Anet takes some chances with this weapon, though I think this patch shows their hand. I doubt we will see anything more than a tweeking of coefficients to make the DPS more relevant. 

Edited February 7 by Obtena.7952

[Flumek.9043]

Basically at this stage of power creep,  the dagger power necro from 2013-15, needs something like this to catch up:

 

#1 autotack animation speed up to match thiefs auto speed buff from 2016.   overall dps increase about 30%,  15 from animation 15 pure buff

#2 healing channel is covered by stability.  does not require LOS or facing,  maybe even becoming a PBAOE

#3 ignores blind, maybe ignores aegis aka unblockable, maybe added gap closer

 

additionally, the offhand weapon needs to provide

#5 warhorn is now mini spectral walk or armor or 3s invuln,  AOE superspeed

#5 dagger offhand,  2x ammo , BLAST finisher, instant cast with same delayed animation

 

THAT is the power level needed to put necro equally into melee range of a willbender, spellbreak, revenant...  nothing serious just a bit of daydreaming 🙂

Edited February 7 by Flumek.9043

[Dr Meta.3158]

I'd just make dagger a hybrid weapon so it doesn't compete with scepter or greatsword with bleed on the auto so it complements dagger 2 as dagger 3 as is now compliments dagger 2 and the weapon will have overall more synergy with the curses traitline as it dies with blood magic now.  Lastly it will compliment offhand dagger as well giving room for dagger/dagger and dagger/warhorn builds.

Change the dagger trait from cooldown reduction to dagger skills doing life steal % based on damage dealt from dagger weapons that increases in intervals as the target has less health. (You having less health would be more ideal but this works better for group pve.)

Have dagger 2 like @Flumek.9043said, do a point blank aoe of raidus of 600 like death shroud 4 but for health rather than life force. This makes it more usable in melee combat against evasive targets that run through your character model as well as a scaling defense in team fights to make being up close more sustainable. Dagger 3 being a leap into an immobilize would be better for engaging and disengaging as well as rounding out the vampire thematic and allowing easier usage of dagger 2 and dagger 1.

I think dagger offhand is fine, dagger 5 could use more power damage to also become hybrid. 

Warhorn can stay as a utility weapon. Warhorn 5 I don't particularly like the skill but don't know what exactly to do with it as far as a complete rework But for now, it does need an aoe radius of 300 to become more reliable. I would also add to the lifesteal ticks, 1 second of poison per tick along with the lifeforce gain to really fit that pestilence effect and helping with dealing with sustain bunkers in pvp. Warhorn 4 with the upcoming unblockable is fine.

 

So overall you have a viable close range weapon for pvp with scaling defense, mobility, soft CC and utility (boon rip) thats also a viable hybrid dps weapon opening up new builds utilizing it.

You have offhand dagger that now synergizes with main hand dagger.

And you have warhorn being a slightly more viable utility offhand.

All of these without stepping into the roles of the other necromancer weapons.

 

[Yasai.3549]

I want a MH dagger rework: 

Skill 1: Life Siphon, Bleed application and 1% LF gain per hit. It's gonna be your BnB and just channel that all over your target

Skill 2: Dark Flight (Tether yourself to a target, transferring Conditions on you to them. If the Tether breaks, you leap toward your enemy and cripple them. Can be recast early to leap to the target) 
Skill 3: Dark Pact (Melee range nuke, ripping Conditions from your target and dealing damage)

[Greviathan.6107]

I am among those who believe that the dagger needs a rework and not an update. And basically I doubt anet wants to make the dagger a condition weapon or a hybrid one in case.

So that's my rework idea, melee and ranged versions:
Additional note: These ideas are thought more on the PvP/WvW side than the PvE side

------------------------------
MELEE Version
------------------------------
Rework based on these concepts:

1. Melee weapon
2. Better distribution of the necro's defenses
   It is clear that anet intends not to give the necro active defenses, and I quite agree in many respects (Maybe only the reaper should have 1?). So just a better distribution of using the Life Force
3. Better usability

It's clear that the devs don't want to give active defenses to the necro because of the second life bar, but what if you can actually use your LF as your out-of-shroud defence?
 

1. Auto Attack
Faster (and maybe more damage) .
 

2. Dark Travel
Shadowstep to the enemy, dealing damage and inflicting conditions. (2 seconds immobilize + 1 second Fear)
OR as has already been suggested, a leap instead of a shadowstep (Maybe it's even a better option)
 

3.a. Underworld Blessing
Apply 6 seconds of Dark Mantle.
If you have Dark Mantle this skill become Death from Life (3.b)
 

Dark Mantle: All damage is reduced by 50% (like in shroud) and inflicted to the life force.

Effect ends when entering shroud or when LF drops to 0.
 

3.b. Death from Life
Removes Dark Mantle and cause a dark explosion around you. For every second of Dark Mantle removed you deal more damage and gain LF. If the LF exceeds 100%, Heal yourself based on the difference instead.

Life Force per second removed: 2%
Heal per second removed: 1/2% (maybe 1%)
Targets: 5

------------------------------
RANGED Version
------------------------------

Rework based on these concepts:

1. Ranged Weapon
2. Better distribution of the necro's defenses
   It is clear that anet intends not to give the necro active defenses, and I quite agree in many respects (Maybe only the reaper should have 1?). So just a better distribution of using the Life Force
3. Better usability

1. Auto Attack
Ranged of course, 900 or 1200 units maybe.
Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20% chance)
 

2. Dark retreat

Shadowstep back 600 units, leaving an area of corruption in the starting position that roots, weakens and damages foes.
 

Pulses:3 - Intervals:1
Weakness (2 seconds)
Immobilize (3 seconds)
Life Force per pulse: 4% (only once per pulse)

Note: Foe can only be immobilized once by this effect
 

3.a. Underworld Blessing  
Note: Same concept of melee version
Apply 6 seconds of Dark Mantle. If you have Dark Mantle this skill become Death from Life (3.b)
 

Dark Mantle: All damage is reduced by 50% (like in shroud) and inflicted to the life force.

Effect ends when entering shroud or when LF drops to 0.
 

3.b. Death from Life  
Note: The ranged version is single target oriented compared to the melee version, but unblockable
Removes Dark Mantle and damage your foe. For every second of Dark Mantle removed you deal more damage and gain LF. 
If the LF exceeds 100%, Heal yourself based on the difference instead.

Life Force per second removed: 2%
Heal per second removed: 1/2% (maybe 1%)
Targets: 1
Range: in line with Auto Attack, 900 or 1200 units
Unblockable

[FrownyClown.8402]

I think dagger mh has potential on reaper. Quickness with dagger 2 offers respectable damage and healing and the life force generation is the most consistent if you keep enemies within range. The biggest issue is keeping enemies close in competitive which could be helped if spectral grasp had an ammo effect. 
 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

4 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

I think dagger mh has potential on reaper. Quickness with dagger 2 offers respectable damage and healing and the life force generation is the most consistent if you keep enemies within range. The biggest issue is keeping enemies close in competitive which could be helped if spectral grasp had an ammo effect.

The truth is that the biggest issue with MH dagger's viability is the lack of good Off-hand to pair it with.

Fixing this "viability" by pidgeonholing the necromancer's utility choice even more than it already is, would be a terrible answer to the problematic. I mean, people already feel compelled to use Wurm and spectral walk, if you push them to also take Spectral grasp you'll have 0 diversity for the necromancer's builds.

[Asum.4960]

9 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

I think dagger mh has potential on reaper. Quickness with dagger 2 offers respectable damage and healing and the life force generation is the most consistent if you keep enemies within range. The biggest issue is keeping enemies close in competitive which could be helped if spectral grasp had an ammo effect. 
 

 

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The truth is that the biggest issue with MH dagger's viability is the lack of good Off-hand to pair it with.

Fixing this "viability" by pidgeonholing the necromancer's utility choice even more than it already is, would be a terrible answer to the problematic. I mean, people already feel compelled to use Wurm and spectral walk, if you push them to also take Spectral grasp you'll have 0 diversity for the necromancer's builds.

 

Reworking Focus 4, Soul Grasp, into a (lesser) Spectral Grasp like pull could be an idea.

As long as Necromancer doesn't get any Utility besides boon removal on it's Weapon skill kits, it's always going to be locked into the same Utility skills which are essentially mandatory for that gamemode as bare minimum. 

 

Same reason I always wanted a at least short Shadow Step for Dagger 3, as well as making Dagger 2's damage and (at least half it's) healing AoE but in a smaller radius, to buff both it's function as well as usability, so it doesn't cancel itself with the slightest movement/look angle change. That way it would at least have a strong standing as Utility Weapon in PvP, as well as providing Necro with a support weapon of any sort for PvE. 

That would already be enough to make Dagger MH an incredibly versatile and fun weapon with plenty use cases in all game modes, as the Professions' Utility kit. 

If they further added some Bleeds to the AA (baseline or as add-on to a Curses Trait), this thing could be a nice to have on swap for just about everything.

 

 

 

Edited February 10 by Asum.4960

[Yasai.3549]

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The truth is that the biggest issue with MH dagger's viability is the lack of good Off-hand to pair it with.

You pretty much always run Dagger with Warhorn anyway, which honestly is its best companion because of how Locust and autos being melee centric skills. 

The problem is if you wanna use Dagger with literally any other offhand, it sucks because you have a useless auto and the other two skills are lackluster unless you run BM's Quickening Thirst for cooldowns. 

Imo Dagger should just have its auto converted into Life Siphon, albeit a slightly weaker variation but basically become its bread and butter. Then we can further explore different skill 2 and skill 3 that can work together with this new ranged playstyle. If Dagger was converted to full melee, it would still suck with majority of the offhands save Warhorn. 

[Flumek.9043]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:04 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

The truth is that the biggest issue with MH dagger's viability is the lack of good Off-hand to pair it with.

Gold.

 

Thinking back, the old warhorn really did stuff of almost 3x todays utilitys:

- blind/aegis clear procs 

- pulsing counter damage, like a well under feet

- lifeforce generator like mini spectral armor

 

The swiftness is really the last thing you need in PVP 😞 we really do have bad offhands, and not many to pick from

[Nimon.7840]

On 2/7/2023 at 9:47 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Anet doesn't touch dagger for over 10 years ... then they increase it's weapon coefficients and people still push for Dagger to be a condi weapon? 🤔

Here is my prediction: Anet continues to make dagger the weapon it already is, just better at doing it ... if they decide to do anything more than they already have in this patch. As for 'reinventing' dagger to some condi monstrosity, the upcoming patch should be a pretty good hint of how likely might happen. 

For some nighttime reading, digging back to the archives: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Main-Hand-Dagger-Condi

As for the changes ... welcome but remains to be seen if it's meaningful. I never really had a problem with dagger damage; it's not an issue that it's not competitive DPS. My experience is that Dagger 2 was mostly a zero sum ... maybe you heal for 4000 but you risk getting hit for the same amount ... so it's like, so what? I can see the reasoning to put some bleed on #3 to encourage timing with #2 but again it feels like it's forcing the concept of the dagger to make it work somehow and reducing the bandwidth for some real interesting concept there. 

My hope is that Anet takes some chances with this weapon, though I think this patch shows their hand. I doubt we will see anything more than a tweeking of coefficients to make the DPS more relevant. 

 

I like what anet is going to do to dagger 2+3. That would enable some kind of tank builds much more than the current version.

BUT:

1. Dagger 1 still has the Aftercast, which makes you want to press D1-cancel-d1-cancel for most damage (not finishing the auto attack chain)

Imo that's extremely frustrating and not intuitive.

Imo the last attack of a chain should always be the most rewarding, which it isn't for Necros dagger.

So instead of increasing the coefficients, I'd liked it more, if they removed some/most of the Aftercast.

2. It's Auto-Attack is melee: Which only matters in pvp modes. But as a Necro you don't want to be melee while out of shroud in pvp modes: You will just get deleted.

 

[Asum.4960]

11 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

It's Auto-Attack is melee: Which only matters in pvp modes. But as a Necro you don't want to be melee while out of shroud in pvp modes: You will just get deleted.

 

It doesn't just matter in PvP. Melee means less DPS uptime in PvE in case of mechanics/boss movement. Reaper is pretty awful in that regard with no even remotely decent ranged option to even keep on swap. Staff DPS falls of a cliff as soon as Marks are spammed out, and Axe after Ghastly Claws. Neither has a remotely decent AA, and not enough solid DPS skills on short enough CD's to compensate. 

And Reaper doesn't do nearly enough damage, on the absolute lowest end of viable DPS's, to also be on the absolute lowest end of DPS-Uptime with no ranged options (on top of the absolute lowest end of group Utility).

 

Dagger as power DPS Melee weapon is the last thing Necro needs, which already has GS on it's only viable Power DPS build. There is no reason to ever want to swap from GS to Dagger MH, as it camps pretty well. 

 

It's just an OW meme weapon. I suppose it's nice to have it buffed if they want to make Power Harbinger a thing - but that whole spec needs an overhaul to make that happen (as well as generally, with all of it's cluttered and self-conflicting design).

[Obtena.7952]

39 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Dagger as power DPS Melee weapon is the last thing Necro needs, which already has GS on it's only viable Power DPS build. There is no reason to ever want to swap from GS to Dagger MH, as it camps pretty well. 

This is not true because Necro in general does not have access to GS ... and we already know that this game is designed to allow people to play how they want, not how people insist others play it because they metapush the idea that Reaper with GS is the 'only viable' Power DPS build. 

Your tone implies you don't value changes that affect OW but those OW choices are important to people. 

Edited February 14 by Obtena.7952

[Asum.4960]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

This is not true because Necro in general does not have access to GS ... and we already know that this game is designed to allow people to play how they want, not how people insist others play it because they metapush the idea that Reaper with GS is the 'only viable' Power DPS build. 

Your tone implies you don't value changes that affect OW but those OW choices are important to people. 

Play how you want is a design philosophy centered around presenting players options. It's about trying to facilitate viable builds for all professions/specs, it's about avoiding things like soft-forcing players to play a specific race because they have the best racial skills, etc. - it's not about the playability of objectively bad builds. 

 

I'm not dismissing the Dagger MH buffs because it's OW (where everything is viable), but because they don't help to broaden it's viability beyond that. 

Focus for example has the same issue with being only compelling in PvP. 

Necro has far too few weapon options with far too inflexible skill kits for over half of them to be either terrible or only compelling in one aspect of the game. 

Most Necro PvE builds don't even utilize weapon swap because there simply aren't any good options.

 

I want more options and broader viability (and I stand by my point that Melee Power, along with Ranged Condi, are the least urgent holes to fix on Necro right now) - these changes, while any buff to something so underperforming and niche is nice, don't facilitate that.

 

Besides, I still think the self-bleed mechanic is poorly thought out, especially in OW - where no one wants to sit around locked in combat for 10 seconds, Bleeding, after every trash mob they want to burst down. 

The weapon also flows poorly with Dark Pact applying a 10 second Bleed, but Life Siphon having a 8 second CD and almost 2 second cast time, meaning the last Dark Pact's Bleed always runs out just as Life Siphon comes back off-CD, having to be delayed until the next Dark Pact, rather than the skills smoothly flowing into each other. 

 

So no, I'm not thrilled about the changes - idk how that is "Meta pushing". If you want to play Power Scepter Core Necro or the like in solo play/OW, I could not care less - it's not on my time. That's not exactly relevant to my point though - then again your forum claim to fame is cherry picking points out of context to bait arguments and derailing Threads (which I'm sure you will keep doing with this post), but that's it from me on the matter.

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

So no, I'm not thrilled about the changes - idk how that is "Meta pushing". 

Well, I explained how it is metapushing because you said necro doesn't need these changes. That ignores the fact that necro needs a decent power DPS option outside of Reaper. Your comments do not recognize players and Anet want options that are relevant BEYOND the single option that some people push. In this case, you want Reaper to be meta DPS for instance content. You say we don't need these changes because we already have that Reaper option ... and I bet you feel like this is just another wasted balance patch where Anet is ignoring the people that think Reaper needs to be DPS meta because they buffer Dagger as a power DPS weapon alternative to GS on Reaper. 

You say you are dismissing the Dagger/WH changes because they don't broaden it's viability beyond that. I don't actually see a problem with that ... and neither should someone that doesn't care about anything BUT GS on Reaper getting meta-level DPS. 

Honestly, these are some of the good changes ... but of course, one has to want to use a dagger/WH to appreciate them. 

 

Edited February 15 by Obtena.7952

[Nephalem.8921]

12 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, I explained how it is metapushing because you said necro doesn't need these changes. That ignores the fact that necro needs a decent power DPS option outside of Reaper. Your comments do not recognize players and Anet want options that are relevant BEYOND the single option that some people push. In this case, you want Reaper to be meta DPS for instance content. You say we don't need these changes because we already have that Reaper option ... and I bet you feel like this is just another wasted balance patch where Anet is ignoring the people that think Reaper needs to be DPS meta because they buffer Dagger as a power DPS weapon alternative to GS on Reaper. 

You say you are dismissing the Dagger/WH changes because they don't broaden it's viability beyond that. I don't actually see a problem with that ... and neither should someone that doesn't care about anything BUT GS on Reaper getting meta-level DPS. 

Honestly, these are some of the good changes ... but of course, one has to want to use a dagger/WH to appreciate them. 

 

Ok if reaper is not supposed to be a dps spec what is its purpose then?

Winterberry farmer? Fishing spec?

Dagger is still bad and wh5 is still useless in pve because it is lifeleech. Which build did they help? Power harb? That build is below most support specs. Doubling 37dmg per tick does not do anything. it would have if they would have reverted it to strike damage.

If anet wants to create options then why is there still so much rp lifesteal on weapons? Why are necro offhands so niche that its barely worth using them on power builds?

Edited February 16 by Nephalem.8921

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Ok if reaper is not supposed to be a dps spec what is its purpose then?

Reaper is supposed to be a melee bruiser.

[Nimon.7840]

18 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Reaper is supposed to be a melee bruiser.

That's not what anet is pushing lately.

They push dmg (yeah I know there were some slight buffs to sustain)

Sure if you push dmg to a point, where reapers onslaught isn't needed anymore, that would push reaper towards being a bruiser. Caus ethen you could take blighters boon.

That being said, I'm definetly going to try something like this for roaming:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSAFcsFaYZCMLmHbhViDt1ZrC-zVRYBRPIG+TJMhQgKgeFBRLB04so/yGA-w

 

Edited February 16 by Nimon.7840