[Suggestion] Improvements to how "Revealed" is applied

[Dadnir.5038]

48 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Best way to solve the Revealed-Stealth balance? 
Option 1. Revealed skills are all made into an AoE aura, as a buff that is applied onto themselves by the user. This means it changes the way how Stealth players engage these players with "True sight" for a few seconds. 
Option 2. Make Revealed skills pulse in an AoE, if it hits the target, they are Revealed. If they were Stealthed, they are Revealed for longer. 

I'd go with a variation of option 1. The "true sight" from skills that reveal would be a self-buff and thief would automatically grant this buff to the attacked foe(s) upon landing a stealth attack on them. This "true sight" wouldn't prevent the thief from entering stealth but he wouldn't be totally invisible but would appear transparent and be untargetable while in stealth.

 

[shinvold.3618]

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

미안하지만 Revealed를 Stunbreak로, Stealth를 CC로 취급하는 겁니까? 그렇게 간단하지 않습니다. 

첫째, 이미 스텔스 상태에 있는 사람에게 공개를 적용할 수 없는 방법과 스텔스 스태킹을 이미 매우 잘 수행하는 말썽꾼이 매우 쉽게 달성하는 방법을 다루기 시작하지도 않습니다. 유일한 "대응책"은 조기에 계시를 적용하고 상대방이 나쁜 움직임을 보이거나 뒤로 물러나도록 하는 것입니다. 스텔스의 본질은 직접적인 상호작용이 없기 때문에 이것이 스텔스에 대응할 수 있는 말 그대로 유일한 방법입니다. 

스텔스의 특성이 비상호작용이기 때문에 이것이 스텔스가 그렇게 큰 피비린내나는 문제인 이유입니다. 결국, 당신은 당신이 목표로 할 수 없는 것을 실제로 칠 수 없습니다. 

Revealed-Stealth 균형을 해결하는 가장 좋은 방법은? 
옵션 1. 공개된 스킬은 모두 AoE 아우라로 만들어지며, 사용자가 자신에게 적용하는 버프입니다. 이것은 스텔스 플레이어가 몇 초 동안 "진정한 시야"로 이러한 플레이어를 참여시키는 방식을 변경한다는 것을 의미합니다. 
옵션 2. 공개된 스킬이 AoE에서 펄스를 만들고 대상에 맞으면 공개됩니다. 은밀한 경우 더 오랫동안 드러납니다. 

 

Your comments are actually pretty close to the changes I'm looking for.

Some skills that cause Reveal are already AOE. I want these skills to only be Revealed on stealthed enemies. And the skills that have this role need to be a bit more diverse.

Gaze of Darkness / Sight beyond Sight / Detection Pulse / Invisible Analysis

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And in the case of a skill that causes Reveal by targeting, targeting is actually impossible if the opponent is stealthed. These skills usually apply Revealed preemptively, at an unavoidable level, at a distance, and for a long time.

"On My Mark!" / "Sic 'Em!" (2000 range instant cast omg)

In the case of these skills, it is also a very good idea to provide 'True Sight' to the user with AOE aura like your opinion. Or, as I first suggested, you could apply Marking (Detected!) to the enemy (like Target Printer). At this time, if the thief is stealthed, Revealed will be applied after 1-2 seconds. At least the thief has the option of going stealth with Revealed risk or not.

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And The tether skills (Spear of Justice, Magebane Tether) seem fine to keep.

Edited February 9, 2023 by shinvold.3618

[Yasai.3549]

42 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'd go with a variation of option 1. The "true sight" from skills that reveal would be a self-buff and thief would automatically grant this buff to the attacked foe(s) upon landing a stealth attack on them. This "true sight" wouldn't prevent the thief from entering stealth but he wouldn't be totally invisible but would appear transparent and be untargetable while in stealth.

 

I'd say that's fair, at least you can judge how closely the stealthed enemy is sticking and cleave them anyway with autos or AoE skills. 
But this would mean the True Sight range has to be balance well, because some classes are able to just continue their assault from quite a distance, DH Trapper being one of them for example. 

Note, this should be a blanket change to Stealth in general, so every "Stealth spam" build will be subject to this rule change. Such a change for starters should be fairer, considering the whole "1 shot from Stealth" thing doesn't really exist anymore beyond edge cases like Soulbeast which has varying results depending on who they're attacking. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Yasai.3549

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[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Sorry but you're treating Revealed as a Stunbreak and Stealth as a CC? It's not so simple. 

Firstly, it doesn't even begin to address how Revealed cannot be applied to someone who's already in Stealth, and Stealth stacking is very easily achieved by troublemakers who already do so very well. The only "counterplay" is to apply the Revealed early and dare the opponent to make a bad move or back off. That's the literal ONLY way you can counter Stealth, because the nature of Stealth is straight up non-interaction. 

This is why Stealth is such a huge bloody issue, because its nature is non-interaction. Afterall, you can't really hit what you cannot target. 

Best way to solve the Revealed-Stealth balance? 
Option 1. Revealed skills are all made into an AoE aura, as a buff that is applied onto themselves by the user. This means it changes the way how Stealth players engage these players with "True sight" for a few seconds. 
Option 2. Make Revealed skills pulse in an AoE, if it hits the target, they are Revealed. If they were Stealthed, they are Revealed for longer. 

I agree with your thoughts regarding possible balance. This is kind of why I suggested a 'detection' self buff action and 'revealed' reaction on the same skill.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

1 hour ago, shinvold.3618 said:

 

Your comments are actually pretty close to the changes I'm looking for.

Some skills that cause Reveal are already AOE. I want these skills to only be Revealed on stealthed enemies. And the skills that have this role need to be a bit more diverse.

Gaze of Darkness / Sight beyond Sight / Detection Pulse / Invisible Analysis

-------------

And in the case of a skill that causes Reveal by targeting, targeting is actually impossible if the opponent is stealthed. These skills usually apply Revealed preemptively, at an unavoidable level, at a distance, and for a long time.

"On My Mark!" / "Sic 'Em!" (2000 range instant cast omg)

In the case of these skills, it is also a very good idea to provide 'True Sight' to the user with AOE aura like your opinion. Or, as I first suggested, you could apply Marking (Detected!) to the enemy (like Target Printer). At this time, if the thief is stealthed, Revealed will be applied after 1-2 seconds. At least the thief has the option of going stealth with Revealed risk or not.

-------------

And The tether skills (Spear of Justice, Magebane Tether) seem fine to keep.

How many targets does this aoe skill apply to though? That's why I suggested a detected/revealed action in a earlier post. No one responded though.

[shinvold.3618]

1 minute ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

How many targets does this aoe skill apply to though? That's why I suggested a detected/revealed action in a earlier post. No one responded though.

I have linked the wiki for each skill.
As you can see, most AOE skills can target up to 5 people.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'd go with a variation of option 1. The "true sight" from skills that reveal would be a self-buff and thief would automatically grant this buff to the attacked foe(s) upon landing a stealth attack on them. This "true sight" wouldn't prevent the thief from entering stealth but he wouldn't be totally invisible but would appear transparent and be untargetable while in stealth.

 

Oooo fascinating idea.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

1 minute ago, shinvold.3618 said:

I have linked the wiki for each skill.
As you can see, most AOE skills can target up to 5 people.

A 5 person aoe reveal skill sounds a little too strong to me. Note traps are fine, but a sill does not.

[shinvold.3618]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

옵션 1의 변형을 사용하겠습니다. 공개하는 기술의 "진정한 시야"는 자기 버프가 될 것이며 도둑은 은신 공격을 가할 때 공격받은 적에게 자동으로 이 버프를 부여합니다. 이 "진정한 시야"는 도둑이 스텔스에 들어가는 것을 막지는 못하지만 완전히 보이지는 않지만 투명하게 보이고 스텔스 상태에서 목표로 삼을 수 없습니다.

 

'True Sight' seeing stealth will probably be similar to mesmer's 'Hide in Shadow'.

- Hide in Shadows is an effect almost identical to stealth created by some mesmer skills, but has a pink outline

[Dadnir.5038]

16 minutes ago, shinvold.3618 said:

'True Sight' seeing stealth will probably be similar to mesmer's 'Hide in Shadow'.

- Hide in Shadows is an effect almost identical to stealth created by some mesmer skills, but has a pink outline

I'm pretty sure this link show how the player see it's character. However, it is indeed how I think "true sight" should show stealthed foes.

[Chips.7968]

7 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

psst, you're missing the part where there's an espec made around ability to use stealth attacks. So it's not about "but no stealth = no easy defence and I don't want to use other defensive means :(" as you're trying to paint it, it's about being locked out of the mechanic (stealth attacks) the espec is built around. Now take that same revealed effect and make it turn off each class' profession/espec mechanics, be it "fx" keys, instantly unsummoning mechs, throwing necros out of shrouds or anything else and come back to say those people should just... use other defensive means or something.

Psst, you're missing the point where he still has all the abilities to access stealth as before; only losing the revealed debuff removal part of the elite and revealed is a very short duration. So he can still use all his stealth attacks. Also, I may not be entirely up to date with everything thief, but I believe stealth attack was the secondary function of one slot in the weapons a thief uses. The entire 5 slots of weapon skills function without stealth too!!!!!! 😉

Also, his post literally included "revealed only applied when in stealth" as option, rather than pre-emptively. Which would imply losing your stealth attack, if in stealth, being his potential solution! Kinda removes your argument, right! 🙂

Edited February 9, 2023 by Chips.7968

[Sobx.1758]

14 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

Psst, you're missing the point where he still has all the abilities to access stealth as before; only losing the revealed debuff removal part of the elite and revealed is a very short duration. So he can still use all his stealth attacks. Also, I may not be entirely up to date with everything thief, but I believe stealth attack was the secondary function of one slot in the weapons a thief uses. The entire 5 slots of weapon skills function without stealth too!!!!!! 😉

Also, his post literally included "revealed only applied when in stealth" as option, rather than pre-emptively. Which would imply losing your stealth attack, if in stealth, being his potential solution! Kinda removes your argument, right! 🙂

Am I missing that stealth abilities remain being stealth abilities? Where? At which part of my post exactly? 🤨 Some are short duration, others... not so much and it makes up a solid % of the encounter being, let's call it, "externally revealed". Also, it's not about "thief in general" we're talking about here, but about the espec this change directly focuses on, keep up please!!!! 😉

Also I'm not exactly talking about OP's idea since I don't think his solution is a good one in the first place, I'm talking about your take where you claim it's somehow strictly about defensive capabilities, which it isn't. Was that -I hoped rather clearly main- part of my post easy to miss? The very first sentence talks about it being about "stealth attacks". The very second sentence was further pointing out how this is not about "defensive capabilities" but about being "locked out of stealth attacks". Now I wonder, how could I be any clearer about what I said and how it directly applied to your post?

Edited February 9, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[shinvold.3618]

11 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'm pretty sure this link show how the player see it's character. However, it is indeed how I think "true sight" should show stealthed foes.

Yes, you are right.

What I want to say is that if 'True Sight' is applied, when a user with True Sight sees a stealthed enemy, it will appear as a translucent effect with outlines like 'Hide in Shadow'. Good idea.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'd go with a variation of option 1. The "true sight" from skills that reveal would be a self-buff and thief would automatically grant this buff to the attacked foe(s) upon landing a stealth attack on them. This "true sight" wouldn't prevent the thief from entering stealth but he wouldn't be totally invisible but would appear transparent and be untargetable while in stealth.

 

I like this idea. It might lead towards there being less frustration around stealth.

How long might true sight last? Also how would it work with those using action cam or aoe based skills?

In a game like D&D attacks have disadvantage to attacking an enemy that isn't completely visible (I forget the name of the spell, but I've fought a 'fire mage' who turned into smoke making it harder to attack them). Would there be a disadvantage on attacks for true sight users?

Also how would it work with trapper rune users or other classes that go invisible?

Edited February 9, 2023 by ZeroTheRuler.7415
clarity