Make participation bots actually play the game

[WizardBro.4510]

On 2/5/2023 at 1:19 PM, coro.3176 said:

Suggestion: While in spawn safe area, players' participation decays as if it hadn't been refreshed.

I see so, so many players just sitting in spawn only leaving once per 10 minutes to go flip a camp or sentry to refresh their participation. This isn't playing WvW, and they shouldn't be rewarded for this. If they want to afk, at least make them stand somewhere potentially vulnerable like a tower or keep.

How about you don't tell other people how to play the game.

[idpersona.3810]

22 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

And that is exactly why it would be a bad idea, you would encourage even more people to just afk long term on the map instead of leaving because of the threat of losing participation. We already have people coming to the forums complaining about people afking running in spawn, now you give them a free pass, in prime time even more people would take advantage of this.

In this scenario it wouldn't be a free pass. People who are afk wouldn't get rewards. There would be no incentive to stay in those areas. Mind you, if there's something I'm not seeing let me know.

23 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

That's why there's a maximum 10min countdown and another 15mins to drain the bar, it's a cushion period for you to do deal with  stuff like your 5min RL issue. If you need to be gone for longer than 10-15+mins then you should get off the map to save your bar. You want an area to absolutely save your participation, it's called everywhere else but wvw maps.

But it seems like even that is being complained about. The people who are popping back to the starting area and going afk for a few minutes instead of just leaving. I was just explaining why I've personally done it.

It's also worth saying that I personally haven't noticed a rash of players afk running into walls. This isn't to say it doesn't happen. Just that I haven't seen this practice.

[Xenesis.6389]

8 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

It's also worth saying that I personally haven't noticed a rash of players afk running into walls. This isn't to say it doesn't happen. Just that I haven't seen this practice.

Neither have I, there's a couple players on a certain server that are known to do it, and maybe mag has a few more than usual, they did back in the days when I was with them, but who cares about them in ebg, lol. Which is why I don't really care about any of these suggestions in the end, the system is fine as it is with it's current leniency period.

[coro.3176]

26 minutes ago, WizardBro.4510 said:

How about you don't tell other people how to play the game.

Unfortunately in a multiplayer game, other players' actions affect my experience too. If they won't play, I can't play, and if they won't play, I'd rather their spot be filled by someone else.

One frustrating example: Roaming near opponents' spawn camp. See 3 enemy players just finish capturing it, but I'm up for the challenge. I run in to attempt the 1v3 (plus NPCs, plus RI camp supervisor). Do the enemy players come to fight me? No. They run back behind the camp and waypoint. They don't continue on to the map to do something useful. They don't bother to fight me (even with every advantage). They got their 10 minutes participation. They're done.

[idpersona.3810]

9 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

Unfortunately in a multiplayer game, other players' actions affect my experience too. If they won't play, I can't play, and if they won't play, I'd rather their spot be filled by someone else.

One frustrating example: Roaming near opponents' spawn camp. See 3 enemy players just finish capturing it, but I'm up for the challenge. I run in to attempt the 1v3 (plus NPCs, plus RI camp supervisor). Do the enemy players come to fight me? No. They run back behind the camp and waypoint. They don't continue on to the map to do something useful. They don't bother to fight me (even with every advantage). They got their 10 minutes participation. They're done.

So your complaint is that they're playing that game mode, but not in a way you enjoy? (This isn't mean to be snarky, it's a genuine question)
Also, hitting them would have prevented them from using the waypoint. Maybe sneak in and tag them before they can get away.

[coro.3176]

4 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

So your complaint is that they're playing that game mode, but not in a way you enjoy? (This isn't mean to be snarky, it's a genuine question)
Also, hitting them would have prevented them from using the waypoint. Maybe sneak in and tag them before they can get away.

Genuine question: Do you consider coming out every 10 minutes to flip the spawn camp to be "playing the game mode"? I don't.

I consider it a failure of game design that players are incentivized to "play" this way. My suggestion is to tweak the reward knobs so that they are not so incentivized.

[Khalisto.5780]

I'd agree with this if they make 7 hours/weekly to max out the skirmish tickets

 

But I see the reason ppl do it when a new player has to play nearly 20 hours weekly to max out those pips

 

If I play 3 hours daily for 6 weeks I can prolly get all the other 5 legendary trinkets done while I'd get only the WvW's

 

They make it feel like a job, ppl obviously gonna cheese it all they can

I just cheked it, if you wood rank and it's stepping on wvw for the first time to farm pips, and don't have commitment bonus and your world places 3rd most of the time.

It's fking 24 hours to max out those pips, half time job confirmed

Edited February 10, 2023 by Khalisto.5780

[TheGrimm.5624]

If this is an issue with GoB farming, allow it to be tradeable on the TP and allow WvWers to play as normal and sell their excess ones or create a tradable vendor where gifts can be swapped as mentioned in other threads. That way WvWers can also trade GoB for GoE/GoM and such.

 

[idpersona.3810]

47 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

Genuine question: Do you consider coming out every 10 minutes to flip the spawn camp to be "playing the game mode"? I don't.

I consider it a failure of game design that players are incentivized to "play" this way. My suggestion is to tweak the reward knobs so that they are not so incentivized.

I agree with the suggestion.

And I don't know how many players are doing it this way. I think a lot of them are likely jumping in and running to the camp to flip it as much for the weekly achievement as for the participation. Especially these passed 2 week, it's been more incentivized to do so. But I don't normally see players solely doing that. Like..I don't know that they jump back to the waypoint and repeatedly go afk. Perhaps I don't spend enough time there myself to note that; I can't say.
I do know it's faster to waypoint back after capping one camp to run up the other side to recap the other camp on the same map, rather than run out and across (thinking of Redvale and Champ's Demense for example).

[MarzAttakz.9608]

1 hour ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I agree with the suggestion.

And I don't know how many players are doing it this way. I think a lot of them are likely jumping in and running to the camp to flip it as much for the weekly achievement as for the participation. Especially these passed 2 week, it's been more incentivized to do so. But I don't normally see players solely doing that. Like..I don't know that they jump back to the waypoint and repeatedly go afk. Perhaps I don't spend enough time there myself to note that; I can't say.
I do know it's faster to waypoint back after capping one camp to run up the other side to recap the other camp on the same map, rather than run out and across (thinking of Redvale and Champ's Demense for example).

This.

Since the new weeklies, behaviour hasn't been positive and I'm guilty of thinking just let it flip too. Last night for example HBL Bay (it's paper) goes contested by ten players. Two catas are down, outer at 70% - there's three of us actively defending. We have to call in our roaming pug tag from EB for support (2am here) - I've already run back from Garrison three times and they arrive as inner goes down but with the bolstered number we're able to defend/repair and go about our business.

Rewind 15 minutes back to Faithleap's last cap and I counted 10 in total inside the circle. Where were the other 7 when we called Bay defence in map chat?

[AlCapwnd.7834]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:48 PM, Morden Kain.3489 said:

I came into WvW as a PvE "scrub" for world map completion back in 2012 (yeah WvW was required for it back then)... have yet to leave WvW 😁.

Great!  Where can I go to sell my 11 Gifts of Battle taking up space in my storage??  I no longer need them, and if I need another I will just redo the track (again)!

11? Those are rookie numbers. You got to pump that up! lol jk.

 

I too came to WvW for the GoB and have stayed ever since. In my opinion WvW is the true end game.

[Deniara Devious.3948]

If the players flip a camp every 10 minutes, they are actually doing something. Also in pve, players are not all the time doing something. They might be waiting for a world event.

Penalizing players for staying in the spawn sounds like a really bad idea and would hurt also players, who are not behaving like the OP described. Spawn camping would become even worse.

Population disparity is still a much bigger issue, especially here in EU. We always have 3 servers without a link. The winning servers which have links have no real incentive to attack each other, instead of there both will attack the weakest.It will be literally 4 vs 1.
 

[GroteDwerg.4752]

That's what you get when you develop a time based reward-system in a PvP mode. I never been a fan of the pip system, always seemed to be the wrong solution for the problem they wanted to fix (participation/reward/fun). Would been better if they overhauled the ranking system itself.

 

- Give WvW xp for participating in fights or doing damage (not only kills).

- Give WvW xp for being in a squad and being with your group together (proximity).

- Give WvW xp for healing people in WvW.

- Give WvW xp for ressurecting people.

Basically everything that falls under "teamwork". It doesn't need to be huge amounts of xp either I believe. But just give more xp for participating. Just being on the map is not participating.

But right now you get rewarded for just being on the map.

 

Now you get a few pips every few minutes. Leading into following logic:  "The minimum time for completing a reward track (without boosters) is 8h 35m (103 ticks), where 195 points are earned per tick. The overall minimal time to complete a reward track is 3h 50m (46 ticks), where all available boosters increases the points per tick from 195 to 439. " - wikipedia.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by GroteDwerg.4752

[Zyreva.1078]

13 minutes ago, GroteDwerg.4752 said:

But right now you get rewarded for just being on the map.

And your suggestions would enable even more rewards for "just being there" as nothing of that requires a whole lot of active play.

[Gehenna.3625]

23 hours ago, WizardBro.4510 said:

How about you don't tell other people how to play the game.

Which would be fair comment if it didn't keep people who do want to play WvW from playing but the issue in WvW is that it does. Afk'ers are not interested in playing WvW but the rewards they can get doing what they're doing. And unlike PvE maps, there won't be another WvW map opening up when they're full, which happens a lot during the evening. So that drives up the queues for people who actually do want to play WvW.

I got kicked from the game last night while playing WvW. When I logged back in I had to wait 30+ minutes to get back in because of the queues. I'm not saying the queues are entirely up to those people (though it could be) but I'll just say that they definitely would've been a lot shorter.

WvW just has limited places for players. Just doing the bare minimum capping a camp every 10 mins or running along a zerg leeching off others is just a problem which actually ruins the fun of other players. When a side can only muster 40 defenders against a side that has 60 attackers then this is the main reason why when maps have queues.

It's Anet's fault mind you. Instead of investigating the reasons why players come to WvW without wanting to play it and come up with solutions for it, they just let it go. You don't need to get the legendary skins for armor in WvW if you already have raid or pvp legendary armor sets. You can just get the ascended ones if it's just about the skins. But Raiders and PvP'ers might go to WvW to get Conflux and OW PvE'ers will mostly come to WvW because they tend to hate Raiding and PvP a lot more.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Gehenna.3625

[roederich.2716]

Just make items needed for legendary craft available through pve content and all is good.

Give PvE players finally a second ring to obtain and GoB + some fractals legendary armor.

If there are players who cant for whatever reason play competitive or pve raids good enough then let them drive through other content.

I never understood Mike O'Briens wording "wvw players are really into pve" without meantioning that the game drives you into different content in item craft progression...

It feels we are  going slowly towards maintenance atm so lets clean up some things at least before leaving it floating.

 

[Mihile.7609]

On 2/5/2023 at 3:13 PM, Chichimec.9364 said:

Why are you spending enough time at spawn to know what other players are doing every ten minutes and why does it bother you what they do? I'm not asking those questions to be obnoxious but because I really am curious.
 

You act like people are just waiting and watching to see others go AFK. If a dude has been running in the same spot in base for the last hour or so then one would assume he is farming ticks and not doing anything. We want players to play the game with us mate lol. If you gotta do do something that's gonna take a bit then log off and let people who actually wanna play, play.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Kain.9136

[Gehenna.3625]

3 hours ago, roederich.2716 said:

I never understood Mike O'Briens wording "wvw players are really into pve" without mentioning that the game drives you into different content in item craft progression...

Did he say that now... ironic, since you don't even need to do any PvE to get WvW legendaries. Besides, there are many PvE'ers who aren't into WvW and also not into Raids. He should shift perspective once in a while. 🤷‍♂️

[GroteDwerg.4752]

6 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

And your suggestions would enable even more rewards for "just being there" as nothing of that requires a whole lot of active play.

How are any of these not active? I copy paste:

- Give WvW xp for participating in fights or doing damage (not only kills).

- Give WvW xp for being in a squad and being with your group together (proximity).

- Give WvW xp for healing people in WvW.

- Give WvW xp for ressurecting people.

Personally I would find this better than standing AFK in castle or keep.

Edit: these are just examples. Maybe Anet can think of better ones. Essential my opinion is: move away from rewarding players based on time and reward players for active participation in the actual mode.

Edited February 11, 2023 by GroteDwerg.4752

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, GroteDwerg.4752 said:

- Give WvW xp for participating in fights or doing damage (not only kills).

Getting hit or autoattacking something doesn't require players to actively play.

1 hour ago, GroteDwerg.4752 said:

- Give WvW xp for being in a squad and being with your group together (proximity).

Being in a squad and/or close to other's doesn't require active play.

1 hour ago, GroteDwerg.4752 said:

- Give WvW xp for healing people in WvW.

Pulsing passive healing to other's doesn't require active play.

1 hour ago, GroteDwerg.4752 said:

- Give WvW xp for ressurecting people.

Well, i guess that requires the player to press a button, so much activity ...

The purpose of fights is to kill opponents and kills already grant WXP, so idk why players should be granted additional rewards for just being there? It's just too easy to exploit if players are rewarded without having to actually try and win those fights.

Generally the problem of rewarding active play is that it heavily favours numbers, because rewards such as WXP are multiplied instead of split, so there is zero relation between effort/risk and reward. And it's unfortunately highly unlikely that the devs would go away from the "participation medals for everyone" design.

Edited February 12, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[idpersona.3810]

10 hours ago, Kain.9136 said:

You act like people are just waiting and watching to see others go AFK. If a dude has been running in the same spot in base for the last hour or so then one would assume he is farming ticks and not doing anything. We want players to play the game with us mate lol. If you gotta do do something that's gonna take a bit then log off and let people who actually wanna play, play.

But if that were the case, their participation would run down and theyd get no pips right? I'm actually asking since I don't really understand the concept of being in WvW afk. Reward for doing that would be non-existent/pretty terrible right?

[KeyOrion.9506]

On 2/5/2023 at 1:13 PM, Chichimec.9364 said:

Why are you spending enough time at spawn to know what other players are doing every ten minutes and why does it bother you what they do? I'm not asking those questions to be obnoxious but because I really am curious.

I play with a squad that runs two hours a day. The only times we are in spawn are when we are just getting started, are switching maps, or we need to regroup after getting wiped. We generally just put out food and banners at spawn as needed, then take off again. I don't even notice who else is there, let alone what they might be doing every ten minutes.

 

It actually doesn't make players in WvW very happy, when a body slot is being taken by a skin and bones "Rewards" taker that does no work.  We need active body players on the WvW map to help the team fight the enemy.  We can't do that if there is 10 to 15 crash test dummies at spawn, that literally are there to get "particpation" rewards, and not do one thing.  Let's increase that to 20 Crash Test Dummies that do nothing.  Increase that to 40.  50.  Let's just have a small squad of 5 people, with multiple accounts that just have all these clothing store dummies just stand around and just waste space, that could be used by an active player.  It's one thing when it's just a Solo player doing this with multiple accounts.  You try it when there's 10 players with multiple accounts, wasting active space.  That adds up.  You seen those Necro minion master bots in Orr?  Try a dozen players with multi-accounts, that have "reward" bots standing in spawn, running into a wall, while people are qued attempting to get into a map to play.

That's why we get hot and bothered, when we see entire squads, that are just reaping and raking in multiple account rewards in WvW, while other players are trying to play, but can't get into the map.

Edited February 12, 2023 by KeyOrion.9506

[Solvar.7953]

So after playing last night, and most of the battlegrounds having queues (usually no queues when I play), I had a counter idea (note to avoid taking a spot, I just went to obsidian sanctum)

Suppose there was another map which had all the various services (merchants, armor, mystic forge, etc), but had nothing else, but was part of the mists so that you could see how the different maps are currently doing, and also get the various WvW rewards.

Suppose also being on this map gave some minor bonus (slower decay, minor extra reward, etc) so incentive people who are not active to be there instead of one the actual battlegrounds.  Given this is a non competitive map, in the rare case that so many people wanted to be on it, another instance could be brought up.

Would that work?  I could even imagine players might hop on that map first just to get a lay of the land before decided what actual battleground to move onto.  I suppose it really comes down to the benefit being great enough for players to go there vs one of the battlegrounds, but if someone is just farming rewards, I'd think most any increase would make it worth it for them to use that map instead.

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Spawn should not decay rewards, and also should not give you rewards. 

So, if you afk at spawn you will timeout after X minutes but cannot 'AFK run' and get rewarded.  You also will not decay if you need to step away.  

Edited February 13, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[TheGrimm.5624]

3 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Spawn should not decay rewards, and also should not give you rewards. 

So, if you afk at spawn you will timeout after X minutes but cannot 'AFK run' and get rewarded.  You also will not decay if you need to step away.  

 

Exactly, handle both AFKers, people trying to farm and people needing to step away for a min. +1.