Vindicator won't stop overperforming until you bring back one evade.

[Jobber.6348]

19 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

THANK YOU, 1+1 = 2 and I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing it. Just looking at the coming changes (Adding back Steal to Daredevil)they know how to power creep and kill incentive.

Ngl, I will not be missing unblockable steals. Good riddance to bad rubbish. 
As for the Core Rev comment: I've been playing Core in both PvP and WvW for years but decided to try out Vindicator without GS and just use a classic Swords Staff loadout.

It's basically the same thing, but you actually save more Energy because: 
1. You simply do more damage due to an extra attack, an extra attack that's very renewable through alot of Endurance traits you enjoy as a Rev. 

2. You aren't actually screwed for using Riposting Shadows anymore since it directly contributes to your gameplan of just pressuring through dodges. 

 

Right now, Retribution - Invocation - Vindicator is my favourite build. You have tons of aggressive pressure and counter aggression dodges through loads and loads of evades. 

Wanna nerf this? Remove 1 Dodge. I hate that I'm actually calling for nerfs on something I genuinely like playing but it's a little dirty to have 2 dodges in the pocket. One dodge would actually make people consider their other options more. Oh and I mean, just remove 1 dodge and keep everything the same. It's perfectly fine, except 2 dodges. 
 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Shao.7236]

3 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Ngl, I will not missing unblockable steals. Good riddance to bad rubbish. 
As for the Core Rev comment: I've been playing Core in both PvP and WvW for years but decided to try out Vindicator without GS and just use a classic Swords Staff loadout.

It's basically the same thing, but you actually save more Energy because: 
1. You simply do more damage due to an extra attack, an extra attack that's very renewable through alot of Endurance traits you enjoy as a Rev. 

2. You aren't actually screwed for using Riposting Shadows anymore since it directly contributes to your gameplan of just pressuring through dodges. 

 

Right now, Retribution - Invocation - Vindicator is my favourite build. You have tons of aggressive pressure and counter aggression dodges through loads and loads of evades. 

Wanna nerf this? Remove 1 Dodge. I hate that I'm actually calling for nerfs on something I genuinely like playing but it's a little dirty to have 2 dodges in the pocket. One dodge would actually make people consider their other options more. Oh and I mean, just remove 1 dodge and keep everything the same. It's perfectly fine, except 2 dodges. 
 

Now add more utility and Greatsword skills. Even less incentive because those are all straight upgrades.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Jobber.6348]

Just now, Shao.7236 said:

Now add having more utility and Greatsword skills. Even less incentive because those are all straight upgrades.

I actually hate GS alot, because it doesn't have the sort of "evasion" feel of a Revenant. 
Using GS feels like you're being weighed down by its raw power and utility instead of being very evasive and light, as a Revenant displays through its power. 

That being said, the kit is good, and I know tons of professions who would love this GS as their weapon. 
AA - not gonna talk about it. It's solid. 

GS2 - could be better tbh, wonder why it's not just an AoE for goodness sake 

GS3 - It's the hallmark of reliable. 

GS4 - It's actually very good. People say True Strike meh but it's insanely good because it's your spike damage vs ranged opponents. You PT > True Strike after blocking a volley of ranged attacks and just vibe check them for being bad. 
GS5 - As if Vindicator needs more aggressive counter pressure. 

[Shao.7236]

4 hours ago, XxsdgxX.8109 said:

Just like with Herald, only Invocation and Devastation seem to be allowed to be viable choices. RIP Retribution and Salvation.
You better carry a staff at all times otherwise you are getting farmed

To me it sounds like traitlines are used the way they should be in association with their purpose. If you're not going to be a support what's the excuse behind having Salvation? Sustain? Ok, but you shouldn't be better at killing with it, especially if the traitline alone carries without requiring any synergy on your behalf.  For traits to be good, they should require the stats that accompany them, period.

Literally the only reason why Devastation and Invocation are the only things that work with Herald is because you are using Shiro and Glint to begin with. You're built for Power Roaming.

Go Jalis/Glint for sidenode, then you have use for Retribution. As Herald/Shiro you could go Retri for bot mid/bot top for maximizing damage on elite burst while gaining power/condition sustain as you do it, but you're trading that for Battlescars while not forced to use Off-Hand sword anymore, Axe for dmg or shield for sustain can be justified alternatives, then Staff can be switched out for Hammer or Sw/Sw.

It would be quite doable to mix and match legends and traits more (IE Mallyx as Power) if there weren't so kitten bad due to negligence over YEARS. Poison destroys Mallyx because Mallyx has no kitten clears or ways to counter it, Shiro plays better for condition than Mallyx does because it has evades and clears while the heal doesn't require you to kill yourself to be effective, what an embarassment that has been live for almost 3 years now.

Who's to know/notice/see all of this when all we see is Shiro anyway.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Shao.7236

[apharma.3741]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

To me it sounds like traitlines are used the way they should be in association with their purpose. If you're not going to be a support what's the excuse behind having Salvation? Sustain? Ok, but you shouldn't be better at killing with it, especially if the traitline alone carries without requiring any synergy on your behalf.  For traits to be good, they should require the stats that accompany them, period.

Literally the only reason why Devastation and Invocation are the only things that work with Herald is because you are using Shiro and Glint to begin with. You're built for Power Roaming.

Go Jalis/Glint for sidenode, then you have use for Retribution. As Herald/Shiro you could go Retri for bot mid/bot top for maximizing damage on elite burst while gaining power/condition sustain as you do it, but you're trading that for Battlescars while not forced to use Off-Hand sword anymore, Axe for dmg or shield for sustain can be justified alternatives, then Staff can be switched out for Hammer or Sw/Sw.

It would be quite doable to mix and match legends and traits more (IE Mallyx as Power) if there weren't so kitten bad due to negligence over YEARS. Poison destroys Mallyx because Mallyx has no kitten clears or ways to counter it, Shiro plays better for condition than Mallyx does because it has evades and clears while the heal doesn't require you to kill yourself to be effective, what an embarassment that has been live for almost 3 years now.

Who's to know/notice/see all of this when all we see is Shiro anyway.

Honestly I think they need to take Deamon stance and corruption trait line back the the planner and really give it some thought. I like the drawing conditions to you to support allies and that you gave them resistance when it protected against conditions but now it just doesn't work without permeating pestilence. They also didn't update the skills to grant resolution which would have helped.
The condition transfer should probably be baked into a skill like call to anguish or embrace the darkness. Ideally it would be on ancient echo but not every spec has that or a replacement for it that would really fit.

[Sahne.6950]

Banish enchantment transfering conditions to enemys? 👀

[Buran.3796]

13 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Vindicator by default had enough ways to get endurance, it's not until they began randomly throwing darts at a board that everyone started to assume not having a second evade is bad.

   I will point you that at the EoD release of Vindicator, along the limit to a single evade stack (as Mirage in PvP), the endurance cost of each evade for this spec was 100 and not 50 as everyone else. At the time most of players in PvP had to run Energy sigils + Retribution (Unwavering ASvoidance) + Song of Arboreum to make it work. "Enough" =/= having to devote the entire build to solve a problem which other Rev specs didn't have.

   After the double dodge recovering (which also lowered the endurance cost to the regular 50) the poorly tested changes lead to the need for new nerfs which crumbled Retributiuon (lol 1s vigor... ). Again: people are running Salvation due ANet forced players to ditch useless traitlines, not due players choice.

[Shao.7236]

6 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Honestly I think they need to take Deamon stance and corruption trait line back the the planner and really give it some thought. I like the drawing conditions to you to support allies and that you gave them resistance when it protected against conditions but now it just doesn't work without permeating pestilence. They also didn't update the skills to grant resolution which would have helped.
The condition transfer should probably be baked into a skill like call to anguish or embrace the darkness. Ideally it would be on ancient echo but not every spec has that or a replacement for it that would really fit.

They should add back 3 instead of 2 on permeating pestilence while either giving Pain Absorption a unique condition immunity buff like the many Revenant has or make Resistance counter poison nullifying effect. The traitline is not that bad and has a variety is balanced choices, legend skills are the true issue here because by itself it can't even handle conditions for a bit while power demolishes it quite easily. Banish used to have confusion and I find it quite hilarious that they took it away when it actually kept face rolling in check for many overperforming classes. It's even more funny that you are given conditions duration for all damaging conditions to even confusion which you can't apply.

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I will point you that at the EoD release of Vindicator, along the limit to a single evade stack (as Mirage in PvP), the endurance cost of each evade for this spec was 100 and not 50 as everyone else. At the time most of players in PvP had to run Energy sigils + Retribution (Unwavering ASvoidance) + Song of Arboreum to make it work. "Enough" =/= having to devote the entire build to solve a problem which other Rev specs didn't have.

   After the double dodge recovering (which also lowered the endurance cost to the regular 50) the poorly tested changes lead to the need for new nerfs which crumbled Retributiuon (lol 1s vigor... ). Again: people are running Salvation due ANet forced players to ditch useless traitlines, not due players choice.

That wasn't an issue. The evade had a powerful effect and was the equivalent of two in duration. I played Shiro + Jalis/Alliances with and without Energy or ridiculous Endurance stacking, playing the elite like it was intended and it was more than fine, we had to be gutted like the usual because people abused one overpowered thing that didn't get nerfed until everything else around it was kitten on. Anet is good at that, beating around the bush until tackling the real issues, it almost feels like it's done on purpose somehow. Wouldn't be surprised given who handled the nerfs and who they listen to for those nerfs, easily 3 quarter of the people on top hardly take in consideration anything but what they think, they have no clue where designs actually sit and this is why much of anything makes little sense is because of all the constant blind potshots rather than having a sense of direction for anything designs prior to their conception.

Also comparing current Vindicator to past with the current nerfs doesn't excuse anything. It's an obvious fact that they have to reverse most of what they did, trying to excuse a past design with current on going ideas that didn't exist before is not a proper way to look at it.

[Lakerduck.1895]

On 2/7/2023 at 3:50 PM, Buran.3796 said:

   It doesn't work that way. Vindi has different evading option and endurance costs at the second EoD beta and in the 4rd beta they gutted the damage, the sustain AND capped the evades to a single, non stackable dodge.

   Then ANet released EoD and they keep nerfing the damage until no one was running Forerunner of Death. People moved to Saint of zu Heltzer and then they nerfed the heals/barrier until the trait did nothing, but they still kept hammering down the damage. So people moved to Vassals, a PvE trait.

   Then in July ANet had the great idea of nerfing the two 714 HP heals in The Alliance legend designed for often usage from 10 to 30 seconds cooldown. So people moved from Devastation to Salvation, because the damage was being meh anyway.

   Salvation is a corner in which ANet put Vindi players, not a free choice. As with  scepter Catalyst, is a self-inflicted wound. The same as making most of the runes SO BAD that now almost everything runs zerker amulet + Divinity. Is Divinity any good? Naah, but they made the others so trash that the combo makes sense.

   Never saw Azurrs playing staff neither Salvation; you'll see gs + staff in less capable hands because at the moment the best role Vindi can fit is "make other players to waste time on me". Is not good at ccing and not that great bruiser, but has mobility to disengage and blocks/evades to bore people. Is semi-useless at competitive matches but can waste a lot of time from others.

   Now ANet claims that wants it to move towards more offensive traits: "We'd like to see vindicator builds move into more offensive trait choices to make up for the loss in damage, instead of remaining a damage threat while focusing on defensive traits"  ...But they just chose to cut damage across greatsword and Archemorus skills. Why should the players move from Invocation to Devastation? Devastation won't make you win vs a bruiser or a duelist build, whereas Invocation turns the fight into mud wrestling and makes hard for others to kill you. With Ren botched and Herald utterly unable to +1 against EoD top dogs Vindi fill perfectly the role of "slippery tank". Just where ANet ignoratly had guided it.

Good grief. The Vindicator is being messed around so many times, plus people claim that it's OP and deserves to be nerf. It's like the Vindicator is attacked by the community especially those that don't main the Vindicator and its haters, and the ANet balance team devs. I played GW2 since Oct. 2022 (my first ever MMO game) and I didn't know that the Vindicator was controversial with the PvP/WvW experience and the continuous nerfs that happened to this class recently and again, it's nerfed again for no reason while the Catalyst dominates the scene in PvP and WvW. What's next? ANet going to try to gut the Vindicator in PvE this time?

 

It must be frustrating that the dodges get nerfed and this forces the Vindicators to get the next best dodge after the nerfs, so the choices become limited. I didn't know that ANet was nerfing the Forerunner of Death on its damage and Saint of zu Heltzer and on its heals and barriers since the changes occurred before I played this game. No wonder why I have seen players in PvP uses Vassals of the Empire these days while I use it since I like to take advantage of gaining boons in PvP/WvW, open world, strike missions, and fractals. I just finished beating Fractal T4 Sunqua with a full group and Vassals of the Empire is amazing and it kept me alive for the final boss fight. The Vindicator cannot get everything it wants and it's still get's nerf. If I want all damage, I use Forerunner of Death and goodbye to anything else. If I want sustain, I sacrifice some of my damage and use Vassals of the Empire, and this is my main build coupled with Salvation traits. In the ArcDPS stats with my main build, I don't usually get the highest DPS compared to the other classes while being in the middle of the pack in fractals teams and raids. The only way for me to gain the most DPS is sacrificing everything and go with Invocation and Devastation and give up Salvation. Most of the time, my DPS placed 4th to 6th. During my raid trainings with the guild, I placed 1st once and 2nd twice on successful raid boss fights in emboldened mode since I'm still new to raids. Why I brought up these instanced PvE results? This is to show that Vindicator is not OP on its own and I have to work hard and learn its class to gain the most of it. For PvP play, I have to be aware of its deficiencies while finding other ways to contribute to the team. Damage is not the be-all and end-all since other classes already outshines the Vindicator when it comes to damage and having most attributes at once. I am still not happy with removal of chill even though I play with the power build. It takes away the options for those Vindicators that want to play with condi damage.

 

Vindicators do have utilities, but their CCs is not as effective and I have to switch legends and use the staff to knock back enemies. What happens when Jalis's chains cannot work like in a fractal Mai Trin boss fight where she has those immunity bubbles, or when players in PvP neutralize it successfully? The CC of the Vindicator gets negated, so I have to resort to Shiro and use Jade Winds, which is way too wasteful and I exhaust all the energy, and players can dodge this too. In PvP, I use Shiro for stuns and gain enough damage, but the sustain isn't great. If I use Jalis, I gain sustain and CC, but the damage is not there. Once again, Vindicators cannot get everything in one go. I have to be aware of the trade-offs. I have to be aware of interruptions and this will prevent me to use my heals. I can use stun breaks, but in PvP play, those happen continuously. I can block attacks with the GS, but players can easily read it to avoid wasting their attacks. 

 

Speaking of the PvP amulets, I start to see that Berserker with Divinity is the best option for damage. I tried Maurader with Divinity and the damage feels so weak. I did a practice duel with my brother who plays the Willbender on the PvP practice area in Heart of the Mists. He was amazed that my class is that weak and I could not kill him and his HP only went down by 1/3 of it with my full rotation while running Alliance (Archemorus). I did the same thing previously on the open world in the guild instance arena area and I completed destroyed him and he was sniped by my spear. The nerfs on the Vindicator is alarming that I am forced to use the aforementioned amulet combination to get the damage. Even though I can squeeze more damage, it's not good enough compared to the other meta classes like the Elementalists, Mechanists, Reapers, Bladesworn, Berserker Warriors, Spellbreakers, Holosmiths, etc. If I want to get more comparable DPS in PvP, then I have to go to Forerunner of Death and there goes my survivability, boon removal after one dodge, and sustain. Condition damage is very strong and I get melted when I get caught once. Elementalists particularly the Catalysts, killed me the fastest among all the classes in the game.

 

What's the deal with ANet these days? Is the Vindicator's prominence in competitive play hurt their pride? So, if a Vindicator is able to solo T3 Mai Trin boss legitimately with no macros (which I actually did in 36 min. with my Wupwup gear without being downed), being able to solo champions in the open world, and being the key player of reviving players in instanced PvE group play very successfully while taking lots of punishment and surviving with the tank Celestial build, will this class get nerfed again when other classes can do things better? I am now very worried since I am more conscious about the incessant nerfs on the Vindicator rather than enjoying the game. I have a feeling that ANet does not want me to play the Vindicator and this game any longer. I didn't know that Vindicator really has a bad history of nerfs and PvP/WvW triumphs, and the controversy of one-dodge vs. two-dodges. To me, GW2 is like League of Legends although these are totally different games. ANet constantly takes away the options of the Vindicator, and once the players get the best option, it gets nerfed again. The Vindicator's life is like in the hamster wheel. I start to really despise the balance team since they want to take away my fun. At the same time, I don't want the Vindicator to be OP. I simply want the sweet balance that makes the class rewarding to play and being able to gain new heights when I master it, and being able to appreciate its skill expression. I am a noob with a core Guardian, and yeah, I have better experiences with the core Guardian than with the Vindicator in PvP. They are getting buffed next patch too, but I am not really the fan of the Guardian. 

 

I start to think that there is profession/elite-spec favoritism among the ANet devs and balance team devs. Is the vision of these guys want specific class to dominate in specific situation or all game modes so that players are forced to play the meta and remove player choice? League of Legends forces players to play the meta game as well, and the same can be said in mobile games too.

 

@Buran.3796, thanks for your insights and I share some of the issues and concerns with the Vindicator. Unfortunately, I came to the game very late, so I need to know some insights about the Vindicator in the past. The Vindicator is quite a polarizing class. What bothers me the most is that ANet constantly takes away the players' options with it comes to the Vindicator when they craft the most optimized build. I believe that their profession/elite-spec favoritism may make this game jump the shark, but that's my honest opinion.

[Shao.7236]

@Lakerduck.1895Allowing 2 evades on Vindicator is the reason why it's so bad now. Nobody wants to accept that as they are so stuck up to the fact everything else is wrong and shouldn't be nerfed while having the 2 which is the wrong view.

Because of the "many" options added along the already potent gameplay of normal Revenant. You're doing mega power creep and nothing Anet can do will ever balance it until it's unplayable for the simple fact that players do underestimate what extra stuns, evades and blocks can do versus numerical benefits.

This is why Vindicator is mega nerfed with nothing fun available. All the buffs and traits have super low value with super low durations. Return the old evade then anything that had a meaningful impact can be restored (mostly everything, Bottom grand master and some viktor skills were mega overpowered and got nerfed for good reason in some aspects like cds, while the other like endurance given shouldn't have been touched.)

Edited February 10, 2023 by Shao.7236

[arazoth.7290]

2 evades aren't the problem, making it 2 for fluidity was necessary. The 1,6 second was too time consuming for pve and even pvp from times and not fluïd.

 

What rather was/is slightly still the problem is many traits/abilities around a dodge, this is never good.

 

It can make then either the spec too op or weak.

When vindicator had 1,6 second dodge it was underperforming compared to many others in pve. And in pvp in the end before the double dodge, it was below herald so enough said.

 

it should be clear that our dodge uptime is for pvp/WvW is fine. It aint too much, bc others even generate faster dodges.

 

And if you involve legendary stance abilty their dodges + weapon dodges, it is the only real defense revenant has ontop of 2 blocks which can unblockables be used on.

So we don't have as other classes stealths and invurnables or many ccs to lock people down/roots.

In the end countering a vindicator even 1v1 isn't a problem, I haven't had that problem even with plats, so try to look for their vurnable times better

Edited February 10, 2023 by arazoth.7290

[Shao.7236]

4 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

2 evades aren't the problem, making it 2 for fluidity was necessary. The 1,6 second was too time consuming for pve and even pvp from times and not fluïd.

 

What rather was/is slightly still the problem is many traits/abilities around a dodge, this is never good.

 

It can make then either the spec too op or weak.

When vindicator had 1,6 second dodge it was underperforming compared to many others in pve. And in pvp in the end before the double dodge, it was below herald so enough said.

 

it should be clear that our dodge uptime is for pvp/WvW is fine. It aint too much, bc others even generate faster dodges.

 

And if you involve legendary stance abilty their dodges + weapon dodges, it is the only real defense revenant has ontop of 2 blocks which can unblockables be used on.

So we don't have as other classes stealths and invurnables or many ccs to lock people down/roots.

In the end countering a vindicator even 1v1 isn't a problem, I haven't had that problem even with plats, so try to look for their vurnable times better

If I can main core rev for years and be generally successful after all the nerfs I had to suffer through in vain of balancing things that don't even revolve around it, what's the excuse for Vindicator being a straight upgrade then? It's an insult.

Has nothing to do with fluidity. In fact the down time is extremely useful to design of Revenant in PvP for energy to easily chain sustain which you could easily do with Vindicator in the form of a daze/stability or evade again after it's in fact more fluid because it compensates itself with time and benefits of the dodge effect, if Damage is that much of an issue for PvE just increase it, don't mess up everything else.

Besides that, if you played around the endurance that could be earned, evades easily came back in a comparable amount of time as having a second, not counting the traits. If you want to ignore everything else regardless for what it's worth, why even bother making comparisons that you don't fully understand?

Revenant has PLENTY to go around with, it doesn't need stealth or much immobilize. It's the player fault for not exploring their options and sticking to the forced ideas upon the meta that is defined by those who manipulate it not only by smearing ideas but also having those special rights because they are the popular sweaties.

To say it was below Herald or anything tells me just like many that you personally couldn't figure your way around it because that is, quite literally exaggerated. Herald is often argued to be poor at 1v1 while Vindicator exceeds at it before and even more so now which is only one thing among the rest.

Wanting to excuse poor decisions for existing poor decisions is not how you design anything anyway, wanting to screw over players even more by attempting to balance around what's overpowered and not what's already balanced is terrible.

[arazoth.7290]

6 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

If I can main core rev for years and be generally successful after all the nerfs I had to suffer through in vain of balancing things that don't even revolve around it, what's the excuse for Vindicator being a straight upgrade then? It's an insult.

Has nothing to do with fluidity. In fact the down time is extremely useful to design of Revenant in PvP for energy to easily chain sustain which you could easily do with Vindicator in the form of a daze/stability or evade again after it's in fact more fluid because it compensates itself with time and benefits of the dodge effect, if Damage is that much of an issue for PvE just increase it, don't mess up everything else.

Besides that, if you played around the endurance that could be earned, evades easily came back in a comparable amount of time as having a second, not counting the traits. If you want to ignore everything else regardless for what it's worth, why even bother making comparisons that you don't fully understand?

Revenant has PLENTY to go around with, it doesn't need stealth or much immobilize. It's the player fault for not exploring their options and sticking to the forced ideas upon the meta that is defined by those who manipulate it not only by smearing ideas but also having those special rights because they are the popular sweaties.

To say it was below Herald or anything tells me just like many that you personally couldn't figure your way around it because that is, quite literally exaggerated. Herald is often argued to be poor at 1v1 while Vindicator exceeds at it before and even more so now which is only one thing among the rest.

Wanting to excuse poor decisions for existing poor decisions is not how you design anything anyway, wanting to screw over players even more by attempting to balance around what's overpowered and not what's already balanced is terrible.

A class/spec shouldn't be to heavly influenced by a dodge ever, with 1,6 second dodge and too much endurance generation you spend more in the air then on ground, while missing a lot to do. Reacting to situations with our current dodge is a lot better because it is faster, but not too fast, it is the right inbetween. 1,6 second is too slow for pve and for pvp/WvW too ez countered bc you see it by a mile coming. Even now our dodges can be avoided, but it has become less bc of the faster duration.

 

And I never said it needed stealth or immobolizes and invurnables, don't twist my words.

 

Also especs in general are mostly an upgrade compared to core, that is for most classes/specs and that will probably not change.

 

Increasing the damage constantly to compensate for the 1,6 sec dodge, takes a point you don't even need to dodge anymore, and then what decrease it so dodge can be used again. This way it keeps going, aint fun.

 

And yes there was a point in spvp where herald was suddenly more played/meta then vindicator bc of this 1,6 sec dodge, which again is so easy to avoid and counter. I know some liked the 1,6 second dodge more, I was first against it too. But after playing both, this is so much better in pve/pvp/WvW, it is a lot more interactive. And if something is more interactive then passive, it becomes more fun, unless you like to sit in the air and do some laundry at the same time 🙂 

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Also especs in general are mostly an upgrade compared to core, that is for most classes/specs and that will probably not change.

No, no and no. They aren't and they shouldn't ever be. How to disrespect your players after bragging about having a game that has many options to choose from yet take away from it.

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Increasing the damage constantly to compensate for the 1,6 sec dodge, takes a point you don't even need to dodge anymore, and then what decrease it so dodge can be used again. This way it keeps going, aint fun.

You need to dodge for bonus damage. So that's not true.

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

And yes there was a point in spvp where herald was suddenly more played/meta then vindicator bc of this 1,6 sec dodge, which again is so easy to avoid and counter. I know some liked the 1,6 second dodge more, I was first against it too. But after playing both, this is so much better in pve/pvp/WvW, it is a lot more interactive. And if something is more interactive then passive, it becomes more fun, unless you like to sit in the air and do some laundry at the same time

If having traits that don't do anything is interactive to you.

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

A class/spec shouldn't be to heavly influenced by a dodge ever, with 1,6 second dodge and too much endurance generation you spend more in the air then on ground, while missing a lot to do. Reacting to situations with our current dodge is a lot better because it is faster, but not too fast, it is the right inbetween. 1,6 second is too slow for pve and for pvp/WvW too ez countered bc you see it by a mile coming. Even now our dodges can be avoided, but it has become less bc of the faster duration.

Ah yes, the good old "too ez to avoid". I could say that for anything that's not instant cast. It's not a matter of being "easy" to avoid but rather using it at the right time, if you're not ever landing it that's more of a user fault than the "see it by a mile coming because you're not supposed to land an attack that hits hard by simply using it. It was as simple as baiting evades to land it or using it as a counter attack which is the basic use.

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

And I never said it needed stealth or immobolizes and invurnables, don't twist my words.

Give someone a vague statement, receive a vague answer? Where's the "you" in my sentence? "It" doesn't need it anyway. No such thing as "twisting" your words if all you're gonna do is mention it like it's a valid excuse to justify anything else.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Where is the ICD on Salvation's perma 15% dmg redu mod? 

Ah nowhere? Anet being kitten then.

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Where is the ICD on Salvation's perma 15% dmg redu mod? 

Ah nowhere? Anet being kitten then.

I honestly doubt it even matters that much. The total barrier you can get without healing power is more concerning IMO.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

51 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

I honestly doubt it even matters that much. The total barrier you can get without healing power is more concerning IMO.

Yeah and couple that with people running Retri on top and you got a lovely piece of a build with very healthy interactions! 

Well, talking in a more WvW perspective here, but still. 

[ArthurDent.9538]

3 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Where is the ICD on Salvation's perma 15% dmg redu mod? 

Ah nowhere? Anet being kitten then.

It's 10% which considering the average dps grandmaster trait is around 10% more damage on average I fail to see how it is out of line. Also, it does typically fall off occasionally during combat so not perma.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

8 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

It's 10% which considering the average dps grandmaster trait is around 10% more damage on average I fail to see how it is out of line. Also, it does typically fall off occasionally during combat so not perma.

I beg to differ, very perma on vindi.

Yeah I didn't notice Unyielding devotion was 10% in pvp, all the more why it should be nerfed application-wise in WvW.

To put it into perspective: if you run defense with warrior you get a strippable source of additional strike dmg redu as a minor GM (sure it's a minor, but you can't perma it at all, especially if the enemy strips/removes it).

Not making any comparison between Warr/Rev, simply showing that compared to the other GM options for Salvation, Unyielding Devotion has no drawback and is quite powerful of an effect, I suggest an ICD of 5 seconds to be added, which will still be more than enough tanking, with some moments of opportunity for enemies.

[ArthurDent.9538]

1 minute ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I beg to differ, very perma on vindi.

Yeah I didn't notice Unyielding devotion was 10% in pvp, all the more why it should be nerfed application-wise in WvW.

To put it into perspective: if you run defense with warrior you get a strippable source of additional strike dmg redu as a minor GM (sure it's a minor, but you can't perma it at all, especially if the enemy strips/removes it).

Not making any comparison between Warr/Rev, simply showing that compared to the other GM options for Salvation, Unyielding Devotion has no drawback and is quite powerful of an effect, I suggest an ICD of 5 seconds to be added, which will still be more than enough tanking, with some moments of opportunity for enemies.

That MINOR trait also gives a passive 1/3 uptime on resolution which is very strong on its own in addition to the direct damage reduction I would argue it is not lagging behind unyielding devotion at all and still doesn't address my question of what makes a 10% damage reduction gm trait op while the average dps gm trait gives around 10% as well. Regardless we are in a 2 class meta and rev is not one of them so I don't know what all the bitching is about.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

47 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

That MINOR trait also gives a passive 1/3 uptime on resolution which is very strong on its own in addition to the direct damage reduction I would argue it is not lagging behind unyielding devotion at all and still doesn't address my question of what makes a 10% damage reduction gm trait op while the average dps gm trait gives around 10% as well. Regardless we are in a 2 class meta and rev is not one of them so I don't know what all the bitching is about.

Uuuh have you seen the evade uptime on Vindi? You clearly play Rev and therefore cant see the underlying issue of evades + barrier + passive dmg redu on glass gear that can still deliver heavy bombs is problematic. 

Anet is looking for employees! 

Vindi needs a lot of looking at in wvw, less so pvp maybe, until it returns to the meta due to the top dogs eventually dropping out. Cause it wont be herald.

[ArthurDent.9538]

9 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Uuuh have you seen the evade uptime on Vindi? You clearly play Rev and therefore cant see the underlying issue of evades + barrier + passive dmg redu on glass gear that can still deliver heavy bombs is problematic. 

Anet is looking for employees! 

Vindi needs a lot of looking at in wvw, less so pvp maybe, until it returns to the meta due to the top dogs eventually dropping out. Cause it wont be herald.

I play a lot of wvw, I wish I ran into more vindi's roaming instead of cele builds and deadeyes but alas they all hide from me I guess.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just now, ArthurDent.9538 said:

I play a lot of wvw, I wish I ran into more vindi's roaming instead of cele builds and deadeyes but alas they all hide from me I guess.

Dont worry, I got you. T1 EU clown fiesta where every group runs triple WB, double Vindi and a tempest carry, unironically 

[Shao.7236]

1 minute ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Dont worry, I got you. T1 EU clown fiesta where every group runs triple WB, double Vindi and a tempest carry, unironically 

You're actually proving the point that mats don't matter because based on regions the flavor of preference to what people play can vary.

[Sereath.1428]

Bruh

Imagine taking Retribution instead of Invocation.

What
(Idk why you mention that combining Retribution and Salvation is a problem, that has no damage)

And you really think that the double-down nerf on Vindicators with Salvation's barrier going down by 30% in addition to nerfing Vindicator skills by around 10% to 20% isn't enough to push them out of Salvation?

You really want to delete alternative options then

Certified ANET moment

You are right, ANET is looking for employees. @Grand Marshal.4098

Uh, interesting coming from the second most oppressive class right now.

Edited February 11, 2023 by XxsdgxX.8109