If you don't get vocal on Mantra changes, you'll regret it

[milumilu.1759]

In the upcoming February 14th balance patch mantras are going to receive a HUGE quality of life nerf in regressing to a functionality similar to how they were before may 2021. 

 

In case you didn't play firebrand back in the day, before may 2021, you used to need to "charge" your mantras through a very long, easily interruptible cast time, this also applied everytime you got downed/killed and in most scenarios you had to be very careful or suffer a big downtime on said mantra if you consumed the last charge of it. This new rework at the very least will charge your mantras while out of combat (in pve maps), but the QoL loss we will suffer in combat will make them a pain to play with in many scenarios, particularly fractals, WvW and PvP game modes.

 

There's no doubt that through practice and muscle memory many players of all skill levels will master (again) the art of using their mantras wisely, and from a roleplay perspective, their charging animation and vocals were a pretty good touch... but truth is, the additional skill cap and roleplay aspect of this "new" rework just won't compensate how unfun, annoying and bothersome mantras are going to become if this rework goes through.

 

I'm not a Firebrand main, but I've played enough with mine through all kinds of content of all difficulties to know how this is going to turn out, most of you will feel that playing with them will become a chore pretty quickly and drop mantras/firebrand completely from multiple game modes, compelling many non-dedicated players to switch to a class that has to deal with less annoyances outside arguably raids and strikes.

 

I'm not talking about the balancing aspect of mantras right now, whether puking out boons is a good or a bad thing is up to debate on a topic of it's own, this post is about the "Fun factor" of these, and whatever the real reasoning behind this rework is, there are better ways to go through it without making mantras a pain again. I'm someone who rarely complains and tries to see the good side of everything and I'm only opening this topic to create some awareness on this issue as people are being quite tame and silent about it.

 

But if you don't get vocal, spam more the forums/reddit through multiple posts, topics and complains. You will deeply regret this change that will probably take a year or two to be reversed again. While sometimes out of touch, CMC is a reasonable person and he and his team will think it more thoroughly before making such a bad change as they did before when they tried to destroy gyros if you get loud enough.

 

Again, I'm not a firebrand main, worst case scenario I will just bench mine again, but whether you feel that mantras are too strong, whether you miss the old animations of them, whether you want a more challenging gameplay, there are better ways to balance them. If you let this change almost no one asked for go through. You will regret it.

Edited February 6, 2023 by milumilu.1759
typos

[Infusion.7149]

So they should stop the revert because you think it is "annoying" to have counterplay. Got it.

They are making the mantras preload in PVE. If a firebrand is downed they should be penalized for it like every other class. If a firebrand is outright killed (which means you failed your job already in strikes, raids or PVP), then having to reload mantras is probably not the issue.

If it is WVW you are concerned about this allows teams to snowball a downed firebrand that has been insta-ressed. That is a good thing otherwise you end up with the boonballing complaints if a firebrand can just instacast stab/aegis/condi clear (if using mantra of lore) when getting back up if your SYG is on cooldown.

There is multiple holes in the story and that includes the fact that skills on other classes have long channels as well ; the mantra revert is also applying to mesmer. Before firebrand mesmer was the predominant quickness support. If firebrand is nerfed (it isn't a nerf it is a revert) you are looking at herald/scrapper/harbinger/catalyst/Berserker/Bladesworn (which has a longer cast than mantras).

Edited February 6, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[MagicBot.1570]

I don't have a problem with the mantra rework.. I preferred this way.

[Ragnar.4257]

Disagree. Change is good, opens up more possibilities.

Strategy and opportunity cost > builds that could be played by an excel macro.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Ragnar.4257

[Nightara.1804]

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If firebrand is nerfed (it isn't a nerf it is a revert) you are looking at herald/scrapper/harbinger/catalyst/Berserker/Bladesworn (which has a longer cast than mantras).

The only class out of all of that with a cast longer than Mantra prep is Bladesworn, and the skill with the longer cast is THE hardest hitting skill in the entire game. So in this one specific case, the long cast is actually worth the time spent on it. And even better, you don't HAVE to spent the entire time in the cast, you can (In theory) interrupt it at any point to get a weaker version of the same effect.

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If a firebrand is outright killed (which means you failed your job already in strikes, raids or PVP), then having to reload mantras is probably not the issue.

It is not an "issue" in terms of balance, it's an "issue" in terms of being hella annoying. Spending 4 seconds (Assuming two mantras, which is what the Metabattle Support Firebrand for WvW is playing atm) in animation after dying is extremely annoying.

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

the mantra revert is also applying to mesmer.

Exactly. For PvE, I would agree with you that while the solution is extremely patchy and nobody will ever end up using the third charge on Firebrand (Which is a horrible design flaw for a skill with three charges), Firebrand Mantras are at least usable. But Mesmer is just being punished for absolutely no reason. The precast effects are useless, the missing third charge makes it extremely hard to use, we actually have to spend those two seconds casting the Mantra every single time we die (Which does happen quite a lot in Raids, Strikes, and Fractals, even if it's just for CD resets), and our Mantras are significantly weaker than any Firebrand Mantra (Except for niche uses), so it's not like we have access to some insanely overpowered skills in return for channeling that stuff (Unlike Tempest or Bladesworn).

The only reason why Mantra of Pain is even used in PvE is that Power Mesmer has horrible DPS options for utility slots.
Mantra of Resolve is worse than Null Field now (3 Cleanses on 24 CD if you don't use the second charge, vs 5 Cleanses on 25s CD with Null Field).
Mantra of Distraction is about as effective as Signet of Domination (1.5s Daze on a 24s CD, vs 3s Stun on a 45s CD).
Mantra of Concentration gives less Stability for a shorter duration, and no Resolution while having the same CD as Stand Your Ground. Yes, Stand Your Ground is not a Mesmer skill, but that's still a joke.

And that's only core options. Chrono has better skills for most of those (Well of Calamity, Well of Precognition), and Mirage can do most of that stuff by simply dodging. Yes, only for themselves, but Mirage is not a very support-oriented spec anyway (And no, giving them support as a side effect to one of their most essential DPS skills doesn't make the entire spec a support spec).

[Fallub.9103]

I also think Mesmer got hit even worse - I would like to see at least the same treatment as Firebrand with the auto-recast mechanic for PvE. But the main problem still persists, that mantras nowadays have been used instantly and reverting those to the "cast-than-use" mechanic feels like a huge step backwards. In a game as fluid and action heavy as GW2 mantras already only had a niche place and even should the cast-buffs be much bigger than planned, it would still be the end of mantras, since the mechanic is just too clunky to use effectively.

[Genie.1785]

I am vocally fine with these changes.

Here you go.

[Infusion.7149]

7 hours ago, Nightara.1804 said:

The only class out of all of that with a cast longer than Mantra prep is Bladesworn, and the skill with the longer cast is THE hardest hitting skill in the entire game. So in this one specific case, the long cast is actually worth the time spent on it. And even better, you don't HAVE to spent the entire time in the cast, you can (In theory) interrupt it at any point to get a weaker version of the same effect.

It is not an "issue" in terms of balance, it's an "issue" in terms of being hella annoying. Spending 4 seconds (Assuming two mantras, which is what the Metabattle Support Firebrand for WvW is playing atm) in animation after dying is extremely annoying.

Exactly. For PvE, I would agree with you that while the solution is extremely patchy and nobody will ever end up using the third charge on Firebrand (Which is a horrible design flaw for a skill with three charges), Firebrand Mantras are at least usable. But Mesmer is just being punished for absolutely no reason. The precast effects are useless, the missing third charge makes it extremely hard to use, we actually have to spend those two seconds casting the Mantra every single time we die (Which does happen quite a lot in Raids, Strikes, and Fractals, even if it's just for CD resets), and our Mantras are significantly weaker than any Firebrand Mantra (Except for niche uses), so it's not like we have access to some insanely overpowered skills in return for channeling that stuff (Unlike Tempest or Bladesworn).

The only reason why Mantra of Pain is even used in PvE is that Power Mesmer has horrible DPS options for utility slots.
Mantra of Resolve is worse than Null Field now (3 Cleanses on 24 CD if you don't use the second charge, vs 5 Cleanses on 25s CD with Null Field).
Mantra of Distraction is about as effective as Signet of Domination (1.5s Daze on a 24s CD, vs 3s Stun on a 45s CD).
Mantra of Concentration gives less Stability for a shorter duration, and no Resolution while having the same CD as Stand Your Ground. Yes, Stand Your Ground is not a Mesmer skill, but that's still a joke.

And that's only core options. Chrono has better skills for most of those (Well of Calamity, Well of Precognition), and Mirage can do most of that stuff by simply dodging. Yes, only for themselves, but Mirage is not a very support-oriented spec anyway (And no, giving them support as a side effect to one of their most essential DPS skills doesn't make the entire spec a support spec).

Ah I see someone doesn't play tempest (4s cast times with no quickness available , meteor is 3.75s), necro (Soul Spiral is 2.75s), or any ranger (whirling defense has 3.25s cast and self roots , rapid fire comes close at 2.5s) or warrior (Hundred blades is 3.5s, flurry etc are all 2+ seconds). Even Empower (2.5s) on guardian which self roots has about as long a cast time. Mantra prep is not the longest cast time in the game, firebrand has access to quickness, the cast is only if you don't have it already prepped, and it does not even self root. Stop exaggerating.

So dying shouldn't be punished? Especially when the mantras are instacast after charged and therefore have no counterplay other than boonrip?

It isn't a nerf to mantra of pain in PVP for mesmers. Mantra of Pain lost its might stacking so power shatter did not have the same punch as it used to after the mantra changes that were mainly to benefit firebrands. Its quite clear Mantra of Concentration is meant for a short burst or push and not for a long stability duration to keep firebrand relevant ; the 3s stab is inline with aegis on Crisis Zone on mech. Mantra of Resolve can be used for cases where only a handful of conditions are applied and you are moving, Null Field doesn't work if you are in motion since it is a pulsing AoE.

If mantra changes are not an issue for Chrono and Mirage, then you are only looking at virtuoso which has additional damage utilities already and core. Given that power virtuoso damage isn't poor even a loss of Mantra of Pain is not a big problem and that is assuming you just spam it and use all the charges. Plus keep in mind only one stability stack can be removed per 0.75s whereas if you are under heavy pressure 1 pulse of aegis per second on well of precog is not enough.

So in short if your only point is it is annoying it is not a very solid argument.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Hotride.2187]

I prefer mantras the way they were before, including charging them. The brainless mantra spam that is half of fb play is even worse with their current state. At least with the final charge and charging, there is some decision making...

Only thing that will suffer is might uptime on hfb, but that got clubbed from staff changes anyway and you're not a party 25 might stack source anymore. So no big deal to me.

As for having to charge them after dying, please. Every time you die you have 10+ seconds until you get to the encounter, don't tell me how you can't charge 2-3 mantras while walking.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[ThunderX.6591]

The change isn't the problem here, the reversing mantra to how they was before is the problem.... because they explained why they changed them before and they reexplained why they changed them now and we returned literally as a circle at the same starting point, losing more then 1 year of possible development here, simple to go in circle, no advance; and the no advance is the real problem here, we simply lost time changing nothing.

BUT Like i always say and write, i wait the "in game test" to see how things change, because only with "in game test" you can see what really changed in playing the class.

On paper, some change can be nice or even fantastic, but in game, they can be subpar or even worse than what they substitute, and only a game test can give some end result about the change.

So for now, we can only wait and hope for the best result we could have with those changes.

Edited February 6, 2023 by ThunderX.6591

[Axl.8924]

Whats the hubub with these mantra things now? is it unplayable? or just overreaction? asking not saying curious.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Axl.8924

[stormemperor.3745]

You can't regret if you don't use them.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

8 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

 

So in short if your only point is it is annoying it is not a very solid argument.

No no! I say nay nay! If a mechanic is annoying, it's the best reason to change it. Maybe even the only reason to change it! Annoying equals not fun, and not fun is the antithesis of recreation. And it's against Anet's own philosophy.
 

Quote

Fundamentally, our goal is to ensure that the moment-to-moment gameplay in Guild Wars 2 is enjoyable for as many players as possible. To that end, we want to capitalize on the depth of the combat system to build a fluid and fast-paced combat experience that allows players to express their mastery of mechanics.

Charging a skill for seconds, especially where nothing else happens during that channel (unlike almost all the other skills you mentioned), is NOT fun, and it is not congruent with a dynamic, "fluid and fast-paced combat experience." The old mantras were great for RP theme with cool voices and charge animations. They were good counterplay for opponents in PVP. But they were not fluid, not fast-paced, and most of all NOT fun to use. Thus, bad.

Anet needs a fix to to address this annoyance, or mantras will fail as a skill design, exactly for the same reasons they were changed in the first place. I agree the current iteration is not perfect. It's more in line with the game's design for meditations, not mantras. But punishing CDs on top of long, boring, easily interrupted charge animations is going too far for the effects they currently provide.

A faster charge time/animation would be my pick for a solution, but others have voiced appropriate solutions as well. In the end the mechanic CANNOT be annoying, AKA, "NOT FUN," or people just won't use them. They will just use the first 2 charges and never spend the last one, except by accident and experience a bit of a bad time, just like they did in the years before. Or worse, just slot other skills instead, because it's simply too annoying to use. A gaming experience should always be fun, never annoying, as the primary principal of recreation.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Infusion.7149]

If you back to that post they made it was the precharging the mantras that was deemed the issue.

[Lei.6517]

🙂

I found something interesting when I checked the KP of the respondent

 

Within the range that can be queried, most of the players who support the change are in the late stage of PVE. They are already very proficient in various game mechanics. For them, the change of Mantra is really irrelevant.

The other part is not registered on KP, which means that they are at least not mid-term players of PVE. In the open world or WVW, the change of mantra is also irrelevant or even beneficial to them.

 

Of course these are my guesses

[otto.5684]

From pve standpoint the change is mote. You never use the final charge anyway. PvP, mantras currently are so bad that any change is good. 

 

What I do not understand is that we have been exactly here before and we know it does not work. They remove aegis from heal then add it again. The remove the final charge then add it again. We already know that that without the mantra charges being good in pvp the whole thing does not work. Why do we need to spend additional patches fixing this kitten. Anet seriously need to get their act together. This is really poor work, especially on the pvp side. Though that is not remotely surprising.

[hash.8462]

Probably this is the wrost idea ever, but... what about this?

1) Mantras will get reverted as planned;

2) Weighty Terms:
- Slow and 1 page recharged on last charge (no internal CD)
- 20% CD reduction

3) Stalwart Speed:
- Mantras no longer need to be charged before use. They now hold three charges, and the final charge is no longer stronger. They regenerate ammunition normally.
- Using 1st charge grant Quickness (7sCD)

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by hash.8462

[Hotride.2187]

It occurs to me that now mantra of liberation will be extra weird? You'd have 1 charge and then a final charge? Ofc its a strong support tool at the loss of some dps. But considering that you are inlikely to use final charges in pve, it essentially becomes 1 stab stack and stunbreak at 25 sec CD. Still strong but kinda weird...

[CraftyK.9062]

26 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

It occurs to me that now mantra of liberation will be extra weird? You'd have 1 charge and then a final charge? Ofc its a strong support tool at the loss of some dps. But considering that you are inlikely to use final charges in pve, it essentially becomes 1 stab stack and stunbreak at 25 sec CD. Still strong but kinda weird...

That's what makes me wonder about the entire change from PvE perspective (NOTE: I have not played back in the time of charged mantras)

 

If I am supposed to rather continuously cast Mantra of Solace and Mantra of Potence to upkeep quickness, then outside of a circumstance where we can kill/finish something off really soon, doesn't the change basically read that they have 1 less charge each...?

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the game should lean into "spam random buttons" direction, but unless the final charge for especially Potence is really strong, I don't think I will find myself using it that much, given that on stream it was said that we'll have to choose between a lower constant effect and the strong last mantra, which makes me assume we will have to charge the skill and then have it go on a full cd with the last mantra cast.

 

 

[Hotride.2187]

6 hours ago, CraftyK.9062 said:

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the game should lean into "spam random buttons" direction, but unless the final charge for especially Potence is really strong, I don't think I will find myself using it that much, given that on stream it was said that we'll have to choose between a lower constant effect and the strong last mantra, which makes me assume we will have to charge the skill and then have it go on a full cd with the last mantra cast.

I think pve is in general a bad example for how mantras are used, w.r.t. the final charge. Since you'll either add the final charge to your dps rotation or not. The cases where you actually want to react on something and use or not use the final charge are the exception and not the rule.

The quickness mantra in particular is the worst example since you can't afford to not pump out quickness at its charge CD, at least not with the cap of 30 seconds quickness. And its instant too; not like it'd make sense to blow the final charge, give quickness for 20 seconds and not interrupt whatever else you are doing for that duration...

As support (pve/wvw) when the mantras had the final charge, the heal mantra, the cleanse mantra, the stab mantra all had very strong effects worth waiting for a CD if the situation required the final charge. They would help you fill gaps of your other CDs (especially F2 and F3).

Overall the final charge is good for more "random" situations, like competitive or when you are supporting in pve (e.g. the group messed up on a mechanic and needs extra of everything). For something like dpsing or blanket boons there will be an optimal use recorded at the golem and whether there is a final charge or not is irrelevant in nearly all cases... probably in a few cases you'll be able to blow the final charge because there is some longer phase of not dpsing, but how much of a dps increase will that be really.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

10 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

It occurs to me that now mantra of liberation will be extra weird? You'd have 1 charge and then a final charge? Ofc its a strong support tool at the loss of some dps. But considering that you are inlikely to use final charges in pve, it essentially becomes 1 stab stack and stunbreak at 25 sec CD. Still strong but kinda weird...

Mantra of Liberation will have 3 charges again. They are adding the 3rd charge back. 

[Saiyan.1704]

(sPvP talk)

Mantra's were balanced around their 3rd stronger cast but that was removed without buffing the entire mantra as a whole... this (along with cd changes and quickness changes) was the nail in the coffin for Firebrand. A prime example is Mantra of Solice. It's the worse heal in sPvP...to the point where players thought it was bugged lol. Nope it's just ridiculously BAD.

Weighty Terms: Slow and 1 page recharged on last charge (no internal CD)

For sPvP this is going to be an awesome addition. This will allow Firebrands to run full mantras without feeling that there's something better. It will still be a stretch to say Firebrand will be anywhere near meta in the sPvP scene but Sagebrand may finally be a contender to bunker core support guard.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Saiyan.1704

[solemn.9670]

I never really had any issue or frustration with the mantras. They were powerful and needed to be charged. What else can I say. Can't relate idk

[Solstice.5790]

As long as Stability and Aegis counter the amount of mechanics they do right now, and as long as Firebrand has more access to those boons than any other class - so, basically, as long as Firebrand is still playable in any way, it will be considered overpowered.

It's pointless to say that the damage (F1) is non-existent when you're on a heal build, because you technically have skills that do a non-zero amount of damage.
It doesn't matter that the F2 doesn't heal for kitten on dps builds, since you have healing skills and even cleansing in there (which are on weapons, consecrations and shouts anyways...)
And the F3 giving Stability / Resistance, that's just the Devil's Work...

With certain streamers harping on the blue class for years (not playing one themselves btw) and the devteam being unable to create viable alternatives, Firebrand will have to go down way further before some people maybe eventually wake up.


And to all you "change is good" parrots - a key aspect of change management is making sure you dont' fall back into the pre-change state.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Solstice.5790

[otto.5684]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:05 AM, Saiyan.1704 said:

(sPvP talk)

Mantra's were balanced around their 3rd stronger cast but that was removed without buffing the entire mantra as a whole... this (along with cd changes and quickness changes) was the nail in the coffin for Firebrand. A prime example is Mantra of Solice. It's the worse heal in sPvP...to the point where players thought it was bugged lol. Nope it's just ridiculously BAD.

Weighty Terms: Slow and 1 page recharged on last charge (no internal CD)

For sPvP this is going to be an awesome addition. This will allow Firebrands to run full mantras without feeling that there's something better. It will still be a stretch to say Firebrand will be anywhere near meta in the sPvP scene but Sagebrand may finally be a contender to bunker core support guard.

Sage brand relied on mantra of truth. It aint gonna work with 1 sec duration. Having the mantras, as a whole, dependent on last charge, does not work. We already know this. We tried it before. Sure, adding a final charge will be better than charges that barely do anything. However, if “F” is fail, “D” is still fail. These changes are kittening stupid, since we already know they won’t work. This is a waste of devs time and players feedback.