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Sigil and weapon synergy question


Dennis.6952

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I've been down this rabbit hole for a while and want to verify something.  Using a necromancer as an example, condi damage specifically and a staff.  The staff attacks do the following damage organically -#2 bleeds, #3 chills and #5 fears.  For the time being lets keep the armor out of the discussion.  If you add an "agony" sigil it increases the bleed duration of the staff #2,  Chilling sigil increases the chill duration of the staff #3.  If you were to add a Torment sigil to the staff, that sigil will not do anything to add or increase torment duration (even if you have a scepter equipped as a secondary with the #3 scepter attack being torment), Yes?. 

 

Using the above example where you have armor with Runes of tormenting (increase torment duration).  If the staff still has the sigils of agony and chilling, the tormenting runes will not add any torment to the staff attacks,  however, if you were to remove the chill or agony sigil and replace it with a sigil of torment, then on a critical hit the tormenting inflicted would be lengthened by the armor runes, Yes?

 

The rabbit hole gets deeper if you factor in a sigil or earth on that staff.  Crits stack bleeds along with the #2 attack and duration's increase if you keep the agony sigil as the other sigil and not the chill.

 

If all the above is true, then looking at strictly condi damage the weapon sigil should be one that enhances the condi damage done by that weapon.  I do understand that sigils of strength, bursting, force, accuracy, etc., have other functions, but for condi damage enhancement is my conclusion correct?

 

Or am I missing something here?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dennis.6952 said:

I've been down this rabbit hole for a while and want to verify something.  Using a necromancer as an example, condi damage specifically and a staff.  The staff attacks do the following damage organically -#2 bleeds, #3 chills and #5 fears.  For the time being lets keep the armor out of the discussion.  If you add an "agony" sigil it increases the bleed duration of the staff #2,  Chilling sigil increases the chill duration of the staff #3.  If you were to add a Torment sigil to the staff, that sigil will not do anything to add or increase torment duration (even if you have a scepter equipped as a secondary with the #3 scepter attack being torment), Yes?. 

If the torment-sigil is only on the staff, yes. Not effect noticeable on the scepter.

1 hour ago, Dennis.6952 said:

Using the above example where you have armor with Runes of tormenting (increase torment duration).  If the staff still has the sigils of agony and chilling, the tormenting runes will not add any torment to the staff attacks,  however, if you were to remove the chill or agony sigil and replace it with a sigil of torment, then on a critical hit the tormenting inflicted would be lengthened by the armor runes, Yes?

Yes.

1 hour ago, Dennis.6952 said:

The rabbit hole gets deeper if you factor in a sigil or earth on that staff.  Crits stack bleeds along with the #2 attack and duration's increase if you keep the agony sigil as the other sigil and not the chill.

Yes.

 

2 hours ago, Dennis.6952 said:

If all the above is true, then looking at strictly condi damage the weapon sigil should be one that enhances the condi damage done by that weapon.  I do understand that sigils of strength, bursting, force, accuracy, etc., have other functions, but for condi damage enhancement is my conclusion correct?

Yes.

BUT: You always have to keep in mind the total condition duration stat. You can never cross the 100 %. If you happen to do it, everything added beyond 100 % is a total waste. This can happen when you utilize different ways of condition-duration enhancement. Like gear with expertise, runes, sigils, traits, food and boons.

For certain condition-based builds it is rather easy to reach the 100 % cap and overshooting it drastically. Therefore I recommend using the build-editor. Check the condition duration % and also hover with your mouse above it, to reveal special condition-specific durations. If anything is 100 %, you have to check if you have just reached it precisely or overshot it. In most cases people overshoot the cap, by a lot. Slot out a few gear pieces and check again. Still 100 %? Remove more.

So to answer your question, YES. But it is not always necessary. 

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2 hours ago, Dennis.6952 said:

If you were to add a Torment sigil to the staff, that sigil will not do anything to add or increase torment duration (even if you have a scepter equipped as a secondary with the #3 scepter attack being torment), Yes?. 

Sigil passive effects like duration sigils are giving their bonus only on the active weapon.

If you put your agony sigil in the staff, when you switch to the scepter - neither the staff, nor the sigil is active, the sigils in the scepter are now being used.

 

 

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Thanks for the info guys.  I suspected I was on the right path here and I do know about the 100% cap.  Friends were getting wrapped up around the percentages shown in the Condi duration  stat on the hero screen.rather than the weapon they were putting sigils on.

 

Just one last question as it relates to prep'ing a staff for the best return on condi damage inflicted.  Since the staff does bleeds and chill organically, (and if running "afflicted" runes on armor with increased bleed and poison +10%  overall condi duration),  would it be better to add another condi sigil (on crit hit or on weapon swap) - like venom=poison or chill with a straight up +20% to chill)  other than an earth sigil stacking bleeds if only to add additional conditions on the foe?

 

That white rabbit keeps me chasing.....ha!

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37 minutes ago, Dennis.6952 said:

Just one last question as it relates to prep'ing a staff for the best return on condi damage inflicted.  Since the staff does bleeds and chill organically, (and if running "afflicted" runes on armor with increased bleed and poison +10%  overall condi duration),  would it be better to add another condi sigil (on crit hit or on weapon swap) - like venom=poison or chill with a straight up +20% to chill)  other than an earth sigil stacking bleeds if only to add additional conditions on the foe?

1.) Chill is not a damage-condition, which means empowering it via runes or sigils will not enhance your damage-output. Chill affects break-bars and slows down trash-mobs/players. The only way chill can deal actual damage is if you run Deathly Chill from Reaper. In that case, whenever you apply chill to a target, it gets 2 stacks of bleeding. And even then, only the cast counts, not the duration. If you run that trait and want to max out condition damage, you can run Superior Sigil of Hydromancy, which will trigger both on weaponswap and upon entering/leaving Shroud.

2.) If you rely on bleed and poison, you have to keep in mind that they are among the weakest of all damage-conditions in the game. Which means you need to stack a lot of them on single target to get acceptable damage. What is a good number of stacks? For bleeding, you should get 10-15 without any problems. If that is not the case, you may have to adjust your build.

As I have no idea about your build, I can only give you this recommendation:
a.) If you struggle getting a healthy amount of condition stacks on your target, I would go for another sigil that causes conditions.
b.) If you can stack conditions quickly, I would go for a condition-duration sigil.

53 minutes ago, Dennis.6952 said:

That white rabbit keeps me chasing.....ha!

Keep asking. Condition damage in GW2 is special, but follows strict rules once you understand the mechanics. A few years ago, I've been in a similar situation. Did not have the same questions, but after my q/a thread, I was able to craft my own condi builds.

If you are looking for necromancer-specific answers, I highly recommend going to the necromancer class board. The players there have a lot of experience and can advise you easily on the best choice for your build. 
 

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5 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

BUT: You always have to keep in mind the total condition duration stat. You can never cross the 100 %. If you happen to do it, everything added beyond 100 % is a total waste. This can happen when you utilize different ways of condition-duration enhancement. Like gear with expertise, runes, sigils, traits, food and boons.

Just out of curiosity. If an opponent has runes of antitoxin which means conditions you put on them have -25% duration, would having over 100% duration, so let's say 125% nullify that or is it just capped at 100% regardless so conditions will last at 75% against that particular enemy just the same?

A highly theoretical question, but I just wonder about that.

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Thanks so much for the link, I think just reading the existing posts should provide some valuable information.  I'm fairly confident that my builds do stack lots of bleeds and torment quickly (Harbinger and scourge), but would be interested in getting options on what are the best condi's to apply.   I know Fire ranks very high as does torment, I always thought bleeds was right up there too.

 

In general practice my harbinger pistol (demons)/dagger (agony) equipped kills a lot quicker than with the  scepter (demons)/focus (cleanse).  Having blood is power activated and then transferring my condition to the target w/ dagger 4 or popping into shroud for a shot or two really does well.  I can see that this action alone stack lots of bleeding and torment to the foe.   I looked at incorporating some burning into my attacks with a sigil that procs on crits or swaps (and there isn't any).  Pistol /dagger has a demon's and agoiny sigil, so won't change those....and nothing to add burning to my focus except a sigil of fire (which I think is more strike damage than a condi).  I may just swap the cleansing on the focus to a torment and hope to stack more of that condi on the off chance of a crit hit.

 

Thanks again for the advice and link.  Cheers!

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18 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Just out of curiosity. If an opponent has runes of antitoxin which means conditions you put on them have -25% duration, would having over 100% duration, so let's say 125% nullify that or is it just capped at 100% regardless so conditions will last at 75% against that particular enemy just the same?

A highly theoretical question, but I just wonder about that.

It is a good question. 

tl&dr: Your personal condition duration is all that matters for OUTGOING condition duration. If it is capped at 100 %, the theoretical condition duration will max. If you have 125 %, it will still only be the same duration as with 100 %. Your target's defenses are a different story. If they have -25 % INCOMING condition duration, they will only be affected by 75 % duration. 

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Combat in GW2 is split into two parts, the caster and their target. Each has its own separated calculations.

1.) Caster
Here the client calculates the potential theoretical impact on the target. This step only focuses on the caster. What stats do they have? What boons/conditions are active? What skills/passives are in effect at this moment? Theoretical means, it assumes the target is 'pure' = a dummy.

2.) Target
Here the client takes the previously calculated theoretical impact and adjusts it according to active effects on the target. Active in this case means everything that alters the previously calculated outcome, both negative and positive. 

This works for both damage and healing.

A while ago, I ran into an anomaly where the 2nd calculation malfunctioned. I saw an effect that was completely different to the system-log (chat). That is how I got to this guess. 

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