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Celestial Condi Weaver on Fractals


Artorias.2158

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Hello, I've been using celestial gear in open world and fractals T1 & T2 and enjoying it a lot, I survive more and I get to finish my rotation haha.

after I got to level 80, I tried using viper gear set but I get deleted so fast in open world so I looked up a guide and change gear and traits (Celestial Weaver) 

I mostly join pugs in fractals so my question is, does it do enough damage in T3 to T4 I'm I being a burden to my group using a celestial gear?

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Are you using a sword?
Use a scepter and if it is T3s you really should not be having an issue. T4s I would only see an issue if the instabilities are really anti-ele and your support (HB/HAM/HAT/etc) is bad.

If you haven't already you should be using fractal potions and food (cheap is fine) but the best investment for elementalist is jade bot core tier 10.

edit: the above is meant for if you run viper gear. Keep in mind fractals are not toughness tanked so you could probably run signet of earth and fire with primordial stance instead of whatever is meta (Glyph of Elemental Power probably is meta).

Edited by Infusion.7149
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Full cele is usually enough dmge for t3/4's. It mostly shines when fighting trash mobs while struggling abit on boss fights. Just keep cele untill you're more comfortable running higher dps gear. Same goes for catalyst; especially cele Qdps cata is pretty good.

 

You wont be doing speedruns with Celestial, but in the end consistency is king and cele usually is very consistent.  

P.s. you will need to have proper gear and dps rotations though to keep up with the rest

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2 hours ago, Artorias.2158 said:

I mostly join pugs in fractals so my question is, does it do enough damage in T3 to T4 I'm I being a burden to my group using a celestial gear?

Yes and no. 

"Yes" you will be underperforming by a lot compared to lets say full dps build (either power or condi), and since you go in with pugs they will want you to provide the group with decent dps since you are joining in as a dps. And you may be kicked out for providing insufficient amount of dps. 

And "no", you can complete any t4 fractal using cele gear, and if you get a static/friend group that are ok with you having lower dps than most people want, you will have no problems with this content. 

 

Ive soloed t4 fracs as a cele weaver/cata multiple times, but i would never take cele in group runs cause well you know i actually want people that im with (including myself) to do the job they are suppose to do. 

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A living cele ele does more damage than a dead vipers ele. So sure, go for it 😄
In a pug you get a mixed bag of players anyways, some are better some are worse. Sometimes you have better supports that let you stay alive more easily, sometimes the entire party has to struggle. It's not required to have the absolute maximum dps possible on a class to clear T4 fracs, as long as there's no wipes you can clear it. Don't think you should expect yourself to bring fragile max dps unless you're comfortable with that and confident in surviving - just do the best you can.

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22 minutes ago, Chyro.1462 said:

A living cele ele does more damage than a dead vipers ele. So sure, go for it

Thats kinda not accurate unless vipers ele dies in first 10 secs of a fight. If thats the case then you shouldnt be in t4 in the first place. 

Cele weaver and vipers weaver damage discrepancy is really big. Its like 20-25k dps on cele and 35-38k dps on vipers. So if we take into account that majority of fractal bosses die in approx 30-120 secs (with some exceptions), then we get this ROUGH result:

Lets take avg 60 sec fight (not like it matter, since the proportions would remain the same).

1) Cele would deal approx 60*20k=1200k damage.

2) VIpers would do 60*35k=2100k damage.

So basically to perform at the same level as cele, vipers could do dps for 34-35 secs (thats around 58% of the fight being alive) and die. 

But there is more to it, the better group performs dps wise, the faster boss will get down, which results in less time required for the whole group to survive. Less time means vipers would net more damage in this short period of time with minimum rist of being dead. As a cele you would be wasting a lot more stats on survivability that you dont actually need, making fight longer and putting more risk at other group members. 

So basically by "going cele" you are underperforming and putting more pressure on the whole group to survive/do additional mechanics. 

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30 minutes ago, Chyro.1462 said:

A living cele ele does more damage than a dead vipers ele.

 

Of course. But, I know it's a matter of trust issues and habits; at some point you need to rely on your group. It's easier for all if everybody cooperate and distribute roles.
Plus most of fractals bosses die in a single rotation even in T4, you should want to gear and trait to deal huge damage, avoid mechanics, strain, mistakes...(or to support allies, depending on your role)  than to survive alone and lengthen the fight. Also your survival comes from knowledge of those mechanics, of patterns etc and so your ability to respond and adapt; "bulky" gear gives you illusion you're good, while you just ignore the gameplay and make no room for improvement.

 

Op should try to change armor and weapons for vipere or grieving, same for traits and skills, and gradually remove celestial pieces. 

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I did some golem practice a few patches ago. Swapped the viper gear to cele just to see how much dps I'd lose. At the time I got 33k on viper, while I got 27k on cele. That's about a 20% dps loss, which isn't that bad when you consider that you have become an unstoppable tank.

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Eh, I stick to my opinion that Cele is fine especially when going with pugs. If you have your set group that you can trust to do well, sure go glass canon. Or if you trust yourself enough to survive encounters with a likely sub-optimal group. Putting yourself under the pressure to 'be perfect' when the rest of the group likely won't be makes no sense. I'd rather have the well rounded stats when things go south to survive longer, potentially see more and learn more while being alive than just being dead on the floor.

 

Though admittedly I don't play much weaver, more of a tempest player where the cele stats also boost its supporting power. Not sure if weaver profits much from that part of the cele stats.

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Considering people are complaining scepter ele is tanky in PvP I fail to see why you would need to be full cele unless you are running sword or something. On top of that scepter only needs fire+earth so your access to rock barrier/magnetic wave/obsidian flesh is akin to half the time ; if you really had to heal and your heal skill is on cooldown Water Trident has a 1.8K heal.

This is in contrast to tempest where celestial might actually make some sense since you can make use of boon duration and can heal other people regardless of weaponset. The meta condi alac tempest runs a great deal of celestial for boon duration. If you go that route then you want to fulfill the alac role rather than joining as DPS.

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On 2/8/2023 at 1:37 PM, Chyro.1462 said:

Eh, I stick to my opinion that Cele is fine especially when going with pugs. If you have your set group that you can trust to do well, sure go glass canon. Or if you trust yourself enough to survive encounters with a likely sub-optimal group. Putting yourself under the pressure to 'be perfect' when the rest of the group likely won't be makes no sense. I'd rather have the well rounded stats when things go south to survive longer, potentially see more and learn more while being alive than just being dead on the floor.

 

Though admittedly I don't play much weaver, more of a tempest player where the cele stats also boost its supporting power. Not sure if weaver profits much from that part of the cele stats.

 

 meter warriors may object but its perfectly find apart from a couple hard modes perhaps, and even then knowledge of fight is the main thing.

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Just did a quick bench on cele sw/d and staff and the dps honestly is quite good. Didn't really optimize the build so could probably squeeze in another ~1k dps. Got 30k and 31k dps on the 1st try. I normally bench around 37k on sw/d and 34k on staff so its respectively a dps loss of 6k/4k. 

With the announced buffs to Weaver sw/d will probably go up to ~34k and staff to ~32k. With most dps builds ranging between 37&40k you basically get roughly  85-92% dps output of most dps snowcrows benchmarks. If that still isn't enough dps for your fractal group you're either in a speedclear group or they are complete fools. 

 

Edited by the krytan assassin.9235
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On 2/8/2023 at 7:31 AM, Artorias.2158 said:

Hello, I've been using celestial gear in open world and fractals T1 & T2 and enjoying it a lot, I survive more and I get to finish my rotation haha.

T1-T2-T3 are for learning fractal mechanics aka : boss patterns, how to walk away, how to dodge, when to use utility, etc... As a DPS role, if you rely on Celestial Builds to make up for your mistakes, you will most likely not learn how to deal with them.

When you get to T4 PUG (and one day CM, hopefully), your party will expect some "performance" from your DPS class.

You will have to switch to pure DPS gear (meaning Viper for condi spec and Berserker for power spec)... so that you may have to deal with mechanics you ignored so far, and with more instabilities (debuffs)... and it may become harder to fix some bad habits.

 

On 2/8/2023 at 7:31 AM, Artorias.2158 said:

after I got to level 80, I tried using viper gear set but I get deleted so fast in open world so I looked up a guide and change gear and traits (Celestial Weaver)

If you are dying very fast in open world, there may be some issues in your gameplay, unless you are trying to solo champions (which will mostly require tankier builds, aka Celestial/PlagueDoc/Trailblazer).

Keep in mind that solo openworld does not relate that much to 5 player-fractal party.

 

On 2/8/2023 at 7:31 AM, Artorias.2158 said:

I mostly join pugs in fractals so my question is, does it do enough damage in T3 to T4 I'm I being a burden to my group using a celestial gear?

As someone already said, fractal fights are usually fast-paced, and bosses die quickly if your party is decent.

Celestial builds rely on condi damages, which means you have a ramp-up-time before you reach max DPS.

 

So, by lowering your condi-DPS output with a Celestial build, you will deal even less DPS in short fractal fights, which will show up if ppl pay attention to the fight duration, or if they use arc DPS.

Longer fights mean more mechanics to deal with, more pressure on your healer (if you have any), and more risks of wiping.

By learning how to avoid mechanics with Viper/Berserker gear, by learning your rotation, you are playing for your team.

By playing Celestial, you are not helping your team, nor yourself in the long run.

The same goes for healers who focus on greeding their own DPS while the party needs healing...

 

Golem benchmark is not a good indicator of how good you will do in fractals... because fractals are not golems... fights are shorter, mechanics are heavier (#misterobvious).

 

Generally speaking, power builds will shine during short phased fights, and condis will shine for longer fights or for fights when you have to run after the boss. Don't misunderstand me, both are valid for fractals.

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1 hour ago, mikko.4013 said:

T1-T2-T3 are for learning fractal mechanics aka : boss patterns, how to walk away, how to dodge, when to use utility, etc... As a DPS role, if you rely on Celestial Builds to make up for your mistakes, you will most likely not learn how to deal with them.

When you get to T4 PUG (and one day CM, hopefully), your party will expect some "performance" from your DPS class.

You will have to switch to pure DPS gear (meaning Viper for condi spec and Berserker for power spec)... so that you may have to deal with mechanics you ignored so far, and with more instabilities (debuffs)... and it may become harder to fix some bad habits.

 

If you are dying very fast in open world, there may be some issues in your gameplay, unless you are trying to solo champions (which will mostly require tankier builds, aka Celestial/PlagueDoc/Trailblazer).

Keep in mind that solo openworld does not relate that much to 5 player-fractal party.

 

As someone already said, fractal fights are usually fast-paced, and bosses die quickly if your party is decent.

Celestial builds rely on condi damages, which means you have a ramp-up-time before you reach max DPS.

 

So, by lowering your condi-DPS output with a Celestial build, you will deal even less DPS in short fractal fights, which will show up if ppl pay attention to the fight duration, or if they use arc DPS.

Longer fights mean more mechanics to deal with, more pressure on your healer (if you have any), and more risks of wiping.

By learning how to avoid mechanics with Viper/Berserker gear, by learning your rotation, you are playing for your team.

By playing Celestial, you are not helping your team, nor yourself in the long run.

The same goes for healers who focus on greeding their own DPS while the party needs healing...

 

Golem benchmark is not a good indicator of how good you will do in fractals... because fractals are not golems... fights are shorter, mechanics are heavier (#misterobvious).

 

Generally speaking, power builds will shine during short phased fights, and condis will shine for longer fights or for fights when you have to run after the boss. Don't misunderstand me, both are valid for fractals.

Uhm.. what is exactly your point? First you discredit cele for relying on condis and lacking burst, then proceed to tell that Viper is completely fine to use (even though vipers is even more condi focused and basically only bursts more if you use weave self).

The dmge of cele is more then enough to kill the bosses at a fast pace (like i mentioned earlier i did ~31k on sw/d Weaver and its getting even higher dps upcoming patch). Any downed state however basically costs like ~150k damage atleast. Sure if you're in a static fractal group and know exactly what to expect from all group members and fully understand every boss mechanic and have proper reaction time on your dodges there is no reason to run cele. If you have some bad/inexp puggies/people spreading out/people rushing in/lack of stabi etc cele can definitely come in handy. Especially due to the nature of Fractals chaoticness, visual clutter and overall high amounts of aoe and trash mobs. 

2 seconds per boss really isnt going to suddenly wipe your party (and if it is wiping your party, they should probably consider running abit more tanky gear aswell). 

 

Ele simply is in alot better condition now compared to the beginning of 2022. Cele now deals the same amount of dps as full zerk/Viper back then. The class has simply gotten alot more leeway; you can pick a hybrid build/non optimized dps build and still carry your weight in fractals. Sure full zerk Weaver/cata is a better pick if you have no problems surviving, but lets not gatekeep someone from enjoying his fractals and actually learn the proper mechanics. A living cele ele deals more dmge and learns more then a dead vipers ele.

Edited by the krytan assassin.9235
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2 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Sure if you're in a static fractal group and know exactly what to expect from all group members and fully understand every boss mechanic and have proper reaction time on your dodges there is no reason to run cele.

Its quite the opposite. If you go with pugs you need to perform as does everyone else since you need to clear the encounter with less risk. By doing less dps than a quick dps you will be upsetting people and it may result in a kick from the group. But in a static you can skritt around all you want noone will get mad or anything. 

When you join a group you are expected to play at a certain level. You either do and all of you succeed, or you dont and you all fail. And if and when you fail any decent group would look for underperfomance, and guess where ur cele will end up on the charts? 

 

2 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

The dmge of cele is more then enough to kill the bosses at a fast pace

You can kill the bosses in green soldiers gear. That 7-10k dps difference will net up in hundreds of k lost dps during the fight, which will result in additional mechanics for ur group to pull and put more pressure on the whole group (esp if some nasty instabilities are on). If 3 of the dps took that less dpsy cele build you would loose 21k dps which almost results in a loss of one full dps player. 

2 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

If you have some bad/inexp puggies/people spreading out/people rushing in/lack of stabi etc cele can definitely come in handy. Especially due to the nature of Fractals chaoticness, visual clutter and overall high amounts of aoe and trash mobs. 

Sure, but why would you want to stay in that group? If i see inexperienced players that do not know mechanics in t4 fracs im not carrying them around. There are t1-t3 to practice.

2 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

2 seconds per boss really isnt going to suddenly wipe your party (and if it is wiping your party, they should probably consider running abit more tanky gear aswell). 

Its not 2 seconds. You are advocating for a concept that it is ok to play cele in t4. So if a newer player follows your concept than it is safe to assume that its ok to go a full group of cele. And it will make you loose loads of dps and the fight will be prolongued for minutes. 

Or if you think that "its ok for me to go cele and the other people to full tryhard" then its selfish and it only puts unnecessary pressure on the whole group and you actually make other group members do ur job. 

2 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Sure full zerk Weaver/cata is a better pick if you have no problems surviving, but lets not gatekeep someone from enjoying his fractals and actually learn the proper mechanics.

Thats the problem. If you go in t4 you need to be experienced both in fractal mechanics and your class. And due to powercreep its literary impossible to die in t4 fracs unless you missplay or fail mechanics. Especially if ur support does his job atleast on an average level. So these bonus stats from cele are a waste of potential. 

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4 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Uhm.. what is exactly your point? First you discredit cele for relying on condis and lacking burst

My point is simply that Celestial Weaver delays the time when a player has to learn mechanics to avoid downstate, which can lead to taking bad habits / low mechanics knowledge.

Relying on condis is not a criticism, and as I said, in a slow-to-medium-paced fight, it is fine.

 

4 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

then proceed to tell that Viper is completely fine to use (even though vipers is even more condi focused and basically only bursts more if you use weave self).

Well, if you are playing a condition-oriented fight (or if you willingly chose to do so), you are expecting to take full advantage of condis, and you expect a "long-enough fight". So yes, in this context, Viper is fine. I can't see what tickled you about that.

About ramp-up-time, let's take your assertion that Celestial and Viper would have similar ramp-up-time : so, basically, we are supposing that you will take the same time to reach max DPS... but the peak would be lower with Celestial, right ? Which still makes Celestial worse than Viper, purely DPS-wise.

 

4 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

The dmge of cele is more then enough to kill the bosses at a fast pace

What does "fast" mean to you ?
I did read you mentioned "benching 31k with Celestial. You mean on a golem, right ? How much can a Celestial build deal on Skorvald or Artsaariv fight (#99), Celestial vs your usual DPS build ?

 

4 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Any downed state however basically costs like ~150k damage atleast.

Why would you be down state in an average T4 party ? If you get down state, it means that you ate some mechanics + no healer, right ?
Eating one mechanic, usually won't instant down state ppl, so that they can survive (even easily if they have a healer). High eating-mechanics-per-second will wipe a party, indeed.

Which brings us back to basic mechanic knowledge that ppl could have learnt in T1-2-3...

 

4 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

2 seconds per boss really isnt going to suddenly wipe your party (and if it is wiping your party, they should probably consider running abit more tanky gear aswell).

2 seconds, even 1 second, can mean the difference between phasing a boss, or not phasing it... and then, having to deal with a lot more mechanics... more downstates, etc... See the pattern...

 

4 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

 lets not gatekeep someone from enjoying his fractals and actually learn the proper mechanics. A living cele ele deals more dmge and learns more then a dead vipers ele.

What is the gatekeeping about ??? Anyone running celestial can join a normal T4 party, even a CM party.

You are bringing another problem on the table.

If your LFG has some expectations about performance, then the player HAS TO fulfill these expectations.

 

As I have already said, T1-2-3 are made to learn the basic mechanics. But ppl can be "late learners" in T4, indeed, and try to fix all the bad habits they took while ignoring basics in lower tiers.

Edited by mikko.4013
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1 hour ago, mikko.4013 said:

My point is simply that Celestial Weaver delays the time when a player has to learn mechanics to avoid downstate, which can lead to taking bad habits / low mechanics knowledge.

What im saying is that if an ele grabs some extra surviveability that makes him as tanky as the average warrior he wont suddenly stop learning mechanics. 

 

1 hour ago, mikko.4013 said:

What does "fast" mean to you ?
I did read you mentioned "benching 31k with Celestial. You mean on a golem, right ? How much can a Celestial build deal on Skorvald or Artsaariv fight (#99), Celestial vs your usual DPS build ?

 

What im saying is that cele can yield the same amount of burst dps as Viper ele, simply because cele is less reliant on condi dps as its dmge source. Cele runs alot better if you actually play a hybrid dps (sort of grieving Weaver style)

 

1 hour ago, mikko.4013 said:

Why would you be down state in an average T4 party ? If you get down state, it means that you ate some mechanics + no healer, right ?
Eating one mechanic, usually won't instant down state ppl, so that they can survive (even easily if they have a healer). High eating-mechanics-per-second will wipe a party, indeed.

Which brings us back to basic mechanic knowledge that ppl could have learnt in T1-2-3...

There are more then enough groups that struggle abit with regular t4's. Sure maybe if you join 10k UFE groups you wont struggle, but thats kinda irrelevant for a player that is relatively new to fractals anyways. 

 

1 hour ago, mikko.4013 said:

I did read you mentioned "benching 31k with Celestial. You mean on a golem, right ? How much can a Celestial build deal on Skorvald or Artsaariv fight (#99), Celestial vs your usual DPS build ?

Ye sure its on Golem, but i dont see any reason why it would suddenly drop massively in a real encounter aslong as you have normal uptime on your Boons. So ~85% of my normal dps and since ele is usually one of the top dps (lets say deals 5% more then avg) id expect the avg cele ele to deal approx 10% less dps then the avg dps pug. 

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10 hours ago, mikko.4013 said:

T1-T2-T3 are for learning fractal mechanics aka : boss patterns, how to walk away, how to dodge, when to use utility, etc... As a DPS role, if you rely on Celestial Builds to make up for your mistakes, you will most likely not learn how to deal with them.

When you get to T4 PUG (and one day CM, hopefully), your party will expect some "performance" from your DPS class.

You will have to switch to pure DPS gear (meaning Viper for condi spec and Berserker for power spec)... so that you may have to deal with mechanics you ignored so far, and with more instabilities (debuffs)... and it may become harder to fix some bad habits.

 

If you are dying very fast in open world, there may be some issues in your gameplay, unless you are trying to solo champions (which will mostly require tankier builds, aka Celestial/PlagueDoc/Trailblazer).

Keep in mind that solo openworld does not relate that much to 5 player-fractal party.

 

As someone already said, fractal fights are usually fast-paced, and bosses die quickly if your party is decent.

Celestial builds rely on condi damages, which means you have a ramp-up-time before you reach max DPS.

 

So, by lowering your condi-DPS output with a Celestial build, you will deal even less DPS in short fractal fights, which will show up if ppl pay attention to the fight duration, or if they use arc DPS.

Longer fights mean more mechanics to deal with, more pressure on your healer (if you have any), and more risks of wiping.

By learning how to avoid mechanics with Viper/Berserker gear, by learning your rotation, you are playing for your team.

By playing Celestial, you are not helping your team, nor yourself in the long run.

The same goes for healers who focus on greeding their own DPS while the party needs healing...

 

Golem benchmark is not a good indicator of how good you will do in fractals... because fractals are not golems... fights are shorter, mechanics are heavier (#misterobvious).

 

Generally speaking, power builds will shine during short phased fights, and condis will shine for longer fights or for fights when you have to run after the boss. Don't misunderstand me, both are valid for fractals.

 people have been destroying  level 4 fractal for years in celestial or exotic gear or even less with skill..  Meter and speed junkies may want meta dmg, and they can setup groups for just that.  For the general population we smash our way through the instances anyway with builds we enjoy. This is why GW2 is so good.

Edited by vesica tempestas.1563
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20 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

 people have been destroying  level 4 fractal for years in celestial or exotic gear or even less with skill..  Meter and speed junkies may want meta dmg, and they can setup groups for just that.  For the general population we smash our way through the instances anyway with builds we enjoy. This is why GW2 is so good.

Truth.  I'm just offended by the idea that condi sword is squishy!  Is it really that bad?

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On 2/10/2023 at 12:54 AM, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Just did a quick bench on cele sw/d and staff and the dps honestly is quite good. Didn't really optimize the build so could probably squeeze in another ~1k dps. Got 30k and 31k dps on the 1st try. I normally bench around 37k on sw/d and 34k on staff so its respectively a dps loss of 6k/4k. 

With the announced buffs to Weaver sw/d will probably go up to ~34k and staff to ~32k. With most dps builds ranging between 37&40k you basically get roughly  85-92% dps output of most dps snowcrows benchmarks. If that still isn't enough dps for your fractal group you're either in a speedclear group or they are complete fools. 

 

So this is the reason why im way too often top dps as quick scrapper. I want gearcheck.

Berserker weaver might get 3k dps with the buff. effect will be lower for cele since its doing less strike dmg and it gets mostly strike dmg buffs.

Burst aspect is also very important. Most bosses or phases are shorter than 10seconds so power burst is massive. This is especially true for low level fractals.

You have to learn to avoid damage for higher levels. Cele will prevent this. Fractals are way too easy now anyways with defensive potions, jade core and vita ar conversion and weaver already generates a bit barrier sometimes. Cele should not be needed.

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18 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

snip

 

7 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

So this is the reason why im way too often top dps as quick scrapper. I want gearcheck.

Berserker weaver might get 3k dps with the buff. effect will be lower for cele since its doing less strike dmg and it gets mostly strike dmg buffs.

Burst aspect is also very important. Most bosses or phases are shorter than 10seconds so power burst is massive. This is especially true for low level fractals.

You have to learn to avoid damage for higher levels. Cele will prevent this. Fractals are way too easy now anyways with defensive potions, jade core and vita ar conversion and weaver already generates a bit barrier sometimes. Cele should not be needed.

 

 Its not so much about need, its about playing what you enjoy playing, one of the fundamental goals of a horizontal game that offers build choice. Not everything needs to top a meter, and apart from a few hard modes everything can be destroyed with mid pack builds.  Many people like the fact cele gives a bit of leeway in terms of exposure to damage.  Now we have jade core, fractal potions this is even more so today.

When people say 'dont play cele'  what they are really saying is - i Want you to play meta. In content where meta is not needed this is clearly wrong. In fact for new players cele is a strong build as it gives them that aforementioned leeway to learn the attack patterns,

Edited by vesica tempestas.1563
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