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Boon stripping, dazes, stuns and other forms of control need HUGE nerf


Farseer.1349

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Well, as stated. they must be nerfed. But the way they are nerfed is not the what most of exploiters will like.

The best way to balance this sh is to

MAKE YOU IMMUNE TO ANY FORM OF CONTROL AFTER GETTING ONE.

Also, interval must be deffent for classes. It must be shorter for versatile classes like ele. and twice longer for already weak, cooldown sensitive classes - GUARDIAN. So guardian needs at least twice the interval. Because guardian suffers the most of boon striping and controls.

Guardian cooldowns are the longest. Even with 20 % reduce trait.

There is another issue with guardian. The most damaging guardian skills are channeling, so they can be interrupted easily. While war will just smash you hammer, stun, smash, stun(yes, 13,5 seconds stun - must be nerfed), guardian has to whirl for damage. Other damaging skills are laughable.

 

While controls must be nerfed, boons must be changed. There should be 2 separate durations for boons: self and other. Self multi must be determined by cooldowns. So guardian should get the highest multi, while ele should get the least. Ranger doesn't need any duration prolonged - ranger needs boon duration reduced. You know why: WvW boon stacking. There are immortal builds which can be countered only by boon stripping. Stacking boon duration to 90-120 seconds is not good. In any case. In any state.

 

Another thing. Classes with the lowest access to control should get smth instead. Just in case, EXTRA PROTECTION. If you cannot stun/slow/knock you enemy, you suffer. You just cannot do damage.

 

You are saying WB deals BIG BIG damage? Only if the foe is standing still. WB itself cannot control enemy.

 

What I am describing is fair trade. You got good CC - enough for you. You don't have CC - get some cookies.

 

And retal must be returned, personally to guardian. I am not speaking resolution is bad. I would prefer to choose one of them: resol vs dotters, retal vs hitters.  Because guardian is always chosen as primary target by hitters, whi;e being ignored by condi players. I see hitters in enemy team - I get protection against them. Good versatility.

But not good right now.

 

Aftermath:

1 Global immunity to control after being controled.

2 Fixes to boon stripping.

2 Fixes to boon duration, separating self/other.

 

Not speaking about immunity state, allowing to do damage, these should be nerfed too. In my opinion, you should be allowed either do damage, or be protected by immunity. If one can get both, it leaves others vulnerable. Yes, hi, chronobunker. And GS chrono too.

 

PS Don't overestimate guardian block. It is ultra good in pve, but pretty useless in pvp/wvw. Because nobody will waste high damaging ability on block. NO-BO-DY.

PPS Such changes overall will brong more balance. Yes, boon stripping/stun exploiters will be frustrated and leave the game. But. You know. Fair players know: 13.5 seconds stun on war is neither fair, not healthy. It's just annoying.

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Guardians have too many boons. They must be nerfed. The best way to do it is to make guardian unable to get boon after getting one. The interval should be at least twice of boon duration he got prior. Because guardian spits boons too much.

 

And I have even better idea. Guardian should be automatically hit by spinal shivers every time he get more than 3 boons.

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48 minutes ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Guardians have too many boons. They must be nerfed. The best way to do it is to make guardian unable to get boon after getting one. The interval should be at least twice of boon duration he got prior. Because guardian spits boons too much.

 

And I have even better idea. Guardian should be automatically hit by spinal shivers every time he get more than 3 boons.

Is this a meme suggestion? Because I actually low-key second that.

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Is this a guide of "How to make warrior useless again?" If yes. Gj on that one xd.

 

EDIT: Maybe I need to help out here. If you are against many peops. Don't spam youre stunbrakes..... just safe them to evade cc+hardburst combs. Means you need to know when those combs are available and when not.

Edited by Pati.2438
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6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Boon Strips actually need to be increased in competitive play. The amount of boon spam in the game is too kitten high.

your not getting the point....  Guardians are getting their stability removed! This is unacceptable! /s

Edited by Sahne.6950
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33 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Stuns and CCs were already mega nerfed in Feb2020. Leave them alone.

Boon Strips actually need to be increased in competitive play. The amount of boon spam in the game is too kitten high.

I think most of the "boon spam" comes from reducing cool downs and ICDs and reducing the duration of the boons provided.


A trait that pulses 2s protection every 5s is the same in uptime as one that pulses 6s protection every 15s and with other sources both can be permanent protection due to the way the boon stacks. There is however a world of difference between them when it comes to boon removal where the latter when removed gives you a significant window to capitalise on it and the former barely any time especially if they have another source ready.


Reminds me of when a failing shadow tried to argue that ranger GS block on a low cool down but being 1s was more skilful than double the cool down and duration. It's that kind of thinking that got us where we are today and unfortunately a vocal minority of (at least in my experience) the NA playerbase has been asking for this. I'm not saying it's you btw Lan, just sharing a story about why I think we're in a state that boon strips are considered too low.

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15 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

I think most of the "boon spam" comes from reducing cool downs and ICDs and reducing the duration of the boons provided.


A trait that pulses 2s protection every 5s is the same in uptime as one that pulses 6s protection every 15s and with other sources both can be permanent protection due to the way the boon stacks. There is however a world of difference between them when it comes to boon removal where the latter when removed gives you a significant window to capitalise on it and the former barely any time especially if they have another source ready.


Reminds me of when a failing shadow tried to argue that ranger GS block on a low cool down but being 1s was more skilful than double the cool down and duration. It's that kind of thinking that got us where we are today and unfortunately a vocal minority of (at least in my experience) the NA playerbase has been asking for this. I'm not saying it's you btw Lan, just sharing a story about why I think we're in a state that boon strips are considered too low.

Nah, that is fair distinction to make. Part of the problem is certainly the CD/Duration. I mentioned competitive play and not PvP directly because in WvW there is an immense amount of boon uptime, but the devs keep culling the number of boon strips. In the end it's an issue of boon CD/Duration and boon strip amount/CD.  Another piece of that is strip/corruption priority. If there were a set priority list, then it may alleviate some issues but may also create others. FWIW I think the boon corruptions should have a priority list at least.

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CC one person is manageable, cc from 2 or more people and you can't do anything.

 

CC is causing a build crafting problem not a player skill problem, the response to it is simply pack as much stunbreak and condi cleanse as possible while still maintaining dps, sustain, and boons,

 

CC from 2 people couple with several rez utilities makes it very difficult to kill anybody.

 

My main bone to pick is aoe cc (chrono grav well, daze spam coupled with ranger's entangling vine skill (made more prevalent with druid), and DH bow 5)

 

I'm going to take apart each skill piece by piece and how it might be delt with sustainably:

 

chrono grav well: instead of pulsing cc it would cc foes the first time they are hit then damage them if they stay in the well after recovering.

 

Entangling vines: would make enemies immune to hard cc while in it but would do more bleeding initially.

 

DH bow 5: make it so you can dodge out (This should have been done a really long time ago)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now to discuss stability:

 

Stability is too prevalent in large amounts, there is either too much and cc is irrelevant or there is too little, and I either can't attack at all or I am flying all over the place.

 

Fix: spread out stability in little amounts over lots of skills

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rezzing utilities:

 

Rezzing abilities should be able to be interrupted, and should have clear a animations,

 

Glyph of renewal (elementalist) should have a burst of element of the elementalist around downed person and caster.

 

Mesmer bubbles: should be a cooldown reduction of utility in the trait rather than a casting trait, effectiveness should be reduced very slightly.

 

Scrapper function gyro: should be easier to see (bigger perhaps) and have less health (downed player should be able to take half of its health before dying and can be killed by allies)

 

Daredevil elite: should give dd the skill when near an enemy who is downed, have rest of skill available when fighting. (Would provide faster normal finishing) (buff pulmonary impact while you're at it)

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18 hours ago, Infinity.2876 said:

CC one person is manageable, cc from 2 or more people and you can't do anything.

 

CC is causing a build crafting problem not a player skill problem, the response to it is simply pack as much stunbreak and condi cleanse as possible while still maintaining dps, sustain, and boons,

 

CC from 2 people couple with several rez utilities makes it very difficult to kill anybody.

 

My main bone to pick is aoe cc (chrono grav well, daze spam coupled with ranger's entangling vine skill (made more prevalent with druid), and DH bow 5)

 

I'm going to take apart each skill piece by piece and how it might be delt with sustainably:

 

chrono grav well: instead of pulsing cc it would cc foes the first time they are hit then damage them if they stay in the well after recovering.

 

Entangling vines: would make enemies immune to hard cc while in it but would do more bleeding initially.

 

DH bow 5: make it so you can dodge out (This should have been done a really long time ago)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now to discuss stability:

 

Stability is too prevalent in large amounts, there is either too much and cc is irrelevant or there is too little, and I either can't attack at all or I am flying all over the place.

 

Fix: spread out stability in little amounts over lots of skills

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rezzing utilities:

 

Rezzing abilities should be able to be interrupted, and should have clear a animations,

 

Glyph of renewal (elementalist) should have a burst of element of the elementalist around downed person and caster.

 

Mesmer bubbles: should be a cooldown reduction of utility in the trait rather than a casting trait, effectiveness should be reduced very slightly.

 

Scrapper function gyro: should be easier to see (bigger perhaps) and have less health (downed player should be able to take half of its health before dying and can be killed by allies)

 

Daredevil elite: should give dd the skill when near an enemy who is downed, have rest of skill available when fighting. (Would provide faster normal finishing) (buff pulmonary impact while you're at it)

in all honesty.... when there is 2 people with heavy CC builds, CCing you... you should die to this CC......  end of the story.

Thats the same as: when 2 high burst builds burst you.... you should die to this burst.

This is not a balancing problem... this is you going up against 2 players and not playing it perfect. Then coming to the forums thinking this is a balancing problem. when in reality you got 2v1ed.

you said it yourself: CC from 1 person in manageable.....   The problem begins when you are trying to facetank 2 people.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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boon stripping is hardly a problem tho:

engineers can get almost every single boon in the game with 2 elixirs B and U + toss elixir B.

Most builds can easily pump out might, (10 stacks at least) fury, protection, vigor, (in some cases) resolution, stability, and resistance (in some cases), and swiftness to top it all off.

boon stripping doesn't prioritize certain boons and Spellbreaker can't steal them for his own use.

If anything, boon stripping needs to be buffed.

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Chrono, mirage and to some extent virtuoso have decent boon strip if they choose, spellbreaker could easily keep a low boon class like non spectre thief naked and necro has a few baked in at it's core and more depending on traits and specs. The real problem is access and trade off.

Why take an ability/trait/line to strip boons when 2 catalysts reapply all of them in the next 3-4 seconds and it doesn't help you survive or get a kill?
As Lan said early about competitive, it's so so much worse in WvW with minstrels and 15-25% boon duration runes, some even more to specific runes. 

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6 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Chrono, mirage and to some extent virtuoso have decent boon strip if they choose, spellbreaker could easily keep a low boon class like non spectre thief naked and necro has a few baked in at it's core and more depending on traits and specs. The real problem is access and trade off.

Why take an ability/trait/line to strip boons when 2 catalysts reapply all of them in the next 3-4 seconds and it doesn't help you survive or get a kill?
As Lan said early about competitive, it's so so much worse in WvW with minstrels and 15-25% boon duration runes, some even more to specific runes. 

It's also worse there because they nerfed WoD, to just reduce the duration of boons being applied rather than stopping their application.

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