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Signets of Power upcoming change is NOT enough


Lithril Ashwalker.6230

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CURRENTLY IN LIVE VERSION = Signets gain reduced recharge time and an additional passive effect.

 Signet of Malice: Heal when you kill a foe.
 Assassin's Signet: Gain might when you kill a foe.
 Infiltrator's Signet: Restore initiative when you kill a foe.
 Signet of Agility: Regain endurance when you kill a foe.
Signet of Shadows: Gain stealth when you kill a foe. (No effect if already stealthed.)
Recharge Reduced: 20%

This trait has been reworked. It now causes signet skills to grant initiative when activated. (February 14th 2023 preview)

This should not be just a total rework but it should be ADDITIONAL to the above so:
 Signet of Malice: Heal when you kill a foe.
 Assassin's Signet: Gain might when you kill a foe.
 Infiltrator's Signet: Restore initiative when you kill a foe.
 Signet of Agility: Regain endurance when you kill a foe.
Signet of Shadows: Gain stealth when you kill a foe. (No effect if already stealthed.)
Activating a signet now grants initiative... 

As you can see it would have better choice management in activating but should also give initiative DURING activation while maintaining these passive effects if we take SoP.  Initiative alone isnt worth taking the trait
 
Edited by Lithril Ashwalker.6230
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A couple of things pop to mind. Does anyone trait signet power? I personally use twin fangs but then again I'm all wvw. ANet's whole goal of late, is to kill off the thief. Don't forget those immortal words from Josh Davis; a source of frustrating game play in pvp and wvw. And I suppose when they say gain back initiative they're talking about 1 or 2 initiative which is going to make all the difference in the world, this being the first step to increase initiative costs again. 

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3 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

CURRENTLY IN LIVE VERSION = Signets gain reduced recharge time and an additional passive effect.

 Signet of Malice: Heal when you kill a foe.
 Assassin's Signet: Gain might when you kill a foe.
 Infiltrator's Signet: Restore initiative when you kill a foe.
 Signet of Agility: Regain endurance when you kill a foe.
Signet of Shadows: Gain stealth when you kill a foe. (No effect if already stealthed.)
Recharge Reduced: 20%

This trait has been reworked. It now causes signet skills to grant initiative when activated. (February 14th 2023 preview)

This should not be just a total rework but it should be ADDITIONAL to the above so:
 Signet of Malice: Heal when you kill a foe.
 Assassin's Signet: Gain might when you kill a foe.
 Infiltrator's Signet: Restore initiative when you kill a foe.
 Signet of Agility: Regain endurance when you kill a foe.
Signet of Shadows: Gain stealth when you kill a foe. (No effect if already stealthed.)
Activating a signet now grants initiative... 

As you can see it would have better choice management in activating but should also give initiative DURING activation while maintaining these passive effects if we take SoP.  Initiative alone isnt worth taking the trait
 

We also get this.

Quote
  • Signet of Malice: Reduced cooldown from 15 seconds to 12 seconds.
  • Signet of Shadows: Reduced cooldown from 20 seconds to 16 seconds.
  • Infiltrator's Signet: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds in PvE, and from 35 seconds to 28 seconds in PvP and WvW.

Also in the stream they stated maybe it might not be enough to resupply just a single initiative and that they would have their eye on the trait. The same thing was said about the trickster change.

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4 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

it would have better choice management in activating but should also give initiative DURING activation while maintaining these passive effects if we take SoP.  Initiative alone isnt worth taking the trait

Even that wouldn't be enough looking at what the trait has to compete with. The least they should do is to change the "on kill" to "on crit" (with adjusted values).

They said that they wanted to be more transparent with their changes but being presented only with their "solution" I have yet to figure out what exactly they are trying to address here. I have some vague ideas but their planned change doesn't really solve any of them (and there would be better ways to go about them too), it really just seems like they're trying to throw random things on the wall and see what sticks.

3 hours ago, Bern.9613 said:

Does anyone trait signet power?

I'm sure that some do for some niche applications but generally not, most people want the benefits of their traits while they are fighting the enemy and not after they're done with it.

Edited by Tails.9372
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On 2/8/2023 at 4:51 PM, Bern.9613 said:

A couple of things pop to mind. Does anyone trait signet power? I personally use twin fangs but then again I'm all wvw. ANet's whole goal of late, is to kill off the thief. Don't forget those immortal words from Josh Davis; a source of frustrating game play in pvp and wvw. And I suppose when they say gain back initiative they're talking about 1 or 2 initiative which is going to make all the difference in the world, this being the first step to increase initiative costs again. 

I've tried it, recently even and it's just not useful in PvP or PvE. Not even for the cooldown reduction~ the baseline CD reduction is a much better buff than the trait. I don't think I'd use it even with the suggested changes as "On Kill" is just a really lackluster and unexciting way to proc something (should be changed on Burst of Shadows too). It seems like they might be trying for a way to give us an alternative to Trickery being such a strong requirement but I don't have to slot all tricks to get more ini from that traitline and it's our only Swiftness access since Acrobatics is dead instead of revolving around group superspeed, quickness and condi resistance support like it should. 😆

I'd say make Deadly Aim baseline (or Ricochet) without the damage reduction and replace it and the Signet trait with things that will make our 3 range weapons not bad. 😛 We have no good way of traiting into range weapon builds. I've run a lot of test with Dual Pistols (and Shortbow primary builds) and I'm really not sure what they expect us to do with them. Strike damage PP builds are really tough to kill anyone with and the pierce trait makes it do even less damage for no reason and condi builds only use AA and Stealth Attacks for damage, and is unable to pierce, and doesn't work well with others around messing up your smoke fields.

Edited by Doggie.3184
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They're already reducing Signet recharge baseline. 

Signets of Power giving Ini refund is a huge deal, especially if you are the sort who burns a bunch of Signets to perform a combo on someone, the Ini refund lets you continue your attack for a little while more before you need to back off. 

If there's any reason why I won't use Signets of Power even after the change, it's because: 
1. Signets kinda suck besides one or two of them, which definitely doesn't warrant picking a trait for it

2. Twin Fangs 

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15 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

@Bern.9613I used to trait it when I had a 1vX build. But nowadays damage got nerfed so badly to where if I want to get a kill off of my build, that trait is out of the question. Same goes for invigorating precision.

Yea, no quarter is better. Better healing through quicker kills 😉

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On 2/9/2023 at 11:54 AM, Yasai.3549 said:

They're already reducing Signet recharge baseline. 

 

Not for Assassin's Signet or Signet of Agility (arguably the most used).

Cooldowns aside, 1 or 2 initiative (whichever they go for) on use is pretty meaningless considering in competitive you'll most likely only be running 1 signet, maybe 2 max (assassin's/agility/or infi). PvE, I dunno. I doubt you would take it over twisting fangs ever.

Most likely just going to be a dead trait on arrival.

Edited by Eugenides.1274
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I was playing an OW build using 4 signets with that trait. Anet just decided to destroy it. Same for the trait reducing my elite CD skill, gone (and most of thief's elite skills are uninteresting). That was a very fun build to play with ton of enemies around you, you could really dodge everywhere while killing everyone. Might be very strong, but it's OW after all, and it's not like Mesmer could solo almost every boss in OW atm... We have more condition cleanse and... 1 initiative. What for ? If it's for PvP/WvW content, it's simple, add this for these modes only, you did that since years Anet.

Edited by Elzo Yell.1784
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44 minutes ago, Elzo Yell.1784 said:

If it's for PvP/WvW content, it's simple, add this for these modes only, you did that since years Anet.

 

This trait will not push anyone who currently doesn't run Critical Strikes to use it in competitive game modes. And for anyone using Critical Strikes already the initiative refunded is just abysmal. If anyone was actually using this to reduce the recharge of Assassin's Signet or Signet of Agility they will probably change it to another trait now considering it doesn't affect the recharge on those (they didn't even get base cooldown reductions 🙄).

It was a niche but kind of fun trait that you could use in open world PvE.
Now it's just dead.

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1 hour ago, Eugenides.1274 said:

Now it's just dead.

Yeah, and to highlight just how bad it actually is:

The average increase in the amount of Initiative gain per sec is 0,196 and that is if you use all your skill slots for Signets and use every one of them the moment they come off cooldown (which is ofc. completely unrealistic so in praxis you actually get a lot less than even just that). For comparison Maleficent Seven can easily increase your average Initiative gain by 2-3 Initiative per second.

Whoever thought that "reworking Signets of Power to only give Initiative (which in and of itself is not an issue) but then making the amount of Initiative regained less than one 10th of what other ini reg traits (which aren't even exclusively focused on that) have to offer" is the way to go has to have either no idea of what he's doing or is "actively trying to go against A-Nets stated ballance philosophy" (to put it as nicely as possible).

Edited by Tails.9372
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1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

Yeah, and to highlight just how bad it actually is:

The average increase in the amount of Initiative gain per sec is 0,196 and that is if you use all your skill slots for Signets and use every one of them the moment they come off cooldown (which is ofc. completely unrealistic so in praxis you actually get a lot less than even just that). For comparison Maleficent Seven can easily increase your average Initiative gain by 2-3 Initiative per second.

Whoever thought that "reworking Signets of Power to only give Initiative (which in and of itself is not an issue) but then making the amount of Initiative regained less than one 10th of what other ini reg traits (which aren't even exclusively focused on that) have to offer" is the way to go has to have either no idea of what he's doing or is "actively trying to go against A-Nets stated ballance philosophy" (to put it as nicely as possible).

I told yall how bad it would be prior! it should have an ADDED effect not a TOTAL REWORK...now to go comment on how shadowmeld as an elite is crap in competitive modes

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8 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

I told yall how bad it would be prior! it should have an ADDED effect not a TOTAL REWORK...now to go comment on how shadowmeld as an elite is crap in competitive modes

But you could kind of understand shadow meld rework 😄 Driven by complaints from other players against the class.

The signet rework -- was this anything to do with player feedback? Another Anet change that renders the trait change "dead on arrival." There's zero reason to take it. 

Edited by Chips.7968
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19 hours ago, Elzo Yell.1784 said:

I was playing an OW build using 4 signets with that trait. Anet just decided to destroy it. Same for the trait reducing my elite CD skill, gone (and most of thief's elite skills are uninteresting). That was a very fun build to play with ton of enemies around you, you could really dodge everywhere while killing everyone. Might be very strong, but it's OW after all, and it's not like Mesmer could solo almost every boss in OW atm... We have more condition cleanse and... 1 initiative. What for ? If it's for PvP/WvW content, it's simple, add this for these modes only, you did that since years Anet.

 

7 hours ago, Chips.7968 said:

But you could kind of understand shadow meld rework 😄 Driven by complaints from other players against the class.

The signet rework -- was this anything to do with player feedback? Another Anet change that renders the trait change "dead on arrival." There's zero reason to take it. 

They value player feedback, but i havent seen a single DEV reply regarding this section of profession (THIEF)... i dont believe they even listen to the feedback, because if they did they would address some of the bugs, concerns and such...they dont know their own game.

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  • 3 months later...

I think the most potential and fun this +2 Ini Signets of Power offers atm is acting as a reload button mid-attack for your Dual Pistols in Open World.

Critical Strikes 2/3/3 Deadly Arts 2/3/3 Deadeye 1/3/1 is pretty fun in open world, the Signets let you use Unload as a basic attack forever outside of having to reset malice with your weak Sneak Attack, but you wont need it as often. And you don't need to weapon swap to another set of Pistols so you have room for a Shortbow for Mobility+AoE since Pierce is still bad VS Explosion/Ricochet on bullet weapons.

Deadly Aim also reduces your damage by 5% and even more than 5% in some cases like on Headshot but it's really important quality of life for not getting your Mark bodyblocked. It's around 1k DPS loss for no reason since the most I could get off of the build was 20-23.5k DPS on dummy with all damage traits and gear (no quarter, practiced tolerance, thief guild) and permanent Unload. The build is very fun but feels unnecessarily weak in damage on Anet's end. Deadly Aim should be a large damage increase instead + return to bounce. Then Signets of Power may actually be pretty cool.

Signet of Shadows doesn't really do much though, those conditions are spammed by everyone, but it's 16s CD so more ini and doesn't move you. Assassin Signet isn't needed unless you want Stunbreak bad enough, probably better off with Roll For Ini then. I got liek 32k~ outa Rifle with same build but need Improvision or Meld cuz it has no ini regen like Unload.

RIP Protection boonrip though unless you wanna carry a Sword/Dagger around which is also weak damage in PvE. ^^

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Let me put this in perspective for PvE. Even if Signet of Power gave 12 initiative your damage with Power Staff Daredevil would barely go up by 2k (and you're forever animation locked with Weakening Charge/Bound lol), and less with Deadeye depending if you choose M7 or BQoBK because Twin Fangs does so much more for you damage-wise.

Signets of Power is exclusively a PvP trait.

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