So why is Vulnerability not affected by Resistance?

[Shao.7236]

It doesn't do damage.

[Kodama.6453]

It doesn't do damage, but it's only purpose is increasing power and condition damage on the target.

Because of that, it is already affected by the boons protection and resolution. These boons will decrease the damage you deal to them (power or condition respectively) by 33%. Which means that vulnerabilities effectiveness is also reduced by 33%. That means that vulnerability gets countered by these boons, just like a damaging condition would also get countered by resolution.

Making it completely negated by resistance on top of that seems like overkill to me.

[Vancho.8750]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It doesn't do damage, but it's only purpose is increasing power and condition damage on the target.

Because of that, it is already affected by the boons protection and resolution. These boons will decrease the damage you deal to them (power or condition respectively) by 33%. Which means that vulnerabilities effectiveness is also reduced by 33%. That means that vulnerability gets countered by these boons, just like a damaging condition would also get countered by resolution.

Making it completely negated by resistance on top of that seems like overkill to me.

To me @Shao.7236 has a point, it is non damaging condition is stopped by resistance it doesn't matter if it has other ways to reduce its effectiveness. If the boon has too many exceptions it is not good for the game, how the kitten I'm supposed to know it doesn't work on Vulnerability the description clearly states Non damaging conditions and I would assume that it works against such since Vuln does no damage. Fun part I was today years old that I learned that resistance doesn't affect Vulnerability. Amazing game learning that it works even stupider than I assumed.
There is still that part of poison that reduces healing but it is not affected by Resistance that makes the boon iffy. 
Way too many exceptions in this game for its rules makes the game way too convoluted and then people wonder they are no players in PVP.

Edited February 11 by Vancho.8750

[Shao.7236]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It doesn't do damage, but it's only purpose is increasing power and condition damage on the target.

Because of that, it is already affected by the boons protection and resolution. These boons will decrease the damage you deal to them (power or condition respectively) by 33%. Which means that vulnerabilities effectiveness is also reduced by 33%. That means that vulnerability gets countered by these boons, just like a damaging condition would also get countered by resolution.

Making it completely negated by resistance on top of that seems like overkill to me.

Many conditions have specific traits that increase damage dealt by players though, not even sure Resistance counters that either, much of what it does is rather useless for how short it's duration is. There's close to no reason ever having it up.

Besides ever since the rework, poison has been such a prominent and overperforming condition to use even as power because it lasts long and doesn't need condition damage be to effective yet it can be deadly with stacks. Feels like a lazy rework to which they couldn't figure out how to really separate the damaging aspect of conditions apart of non damaging regardless. They were able to have fear keep do it's damage while not being feared, to me it's quite clear all the inconsistencies with the past design as well as the new needs proper attention.

Besides, it's in it's description "Resistance is a boon that temporarily negates the affected target of all effects caused by nondamaging conditions." How can someone know until they find out for themselves?

Look I'm not someone that tends to favor the old over the new at all times, I'm willing to accept new ideas if they make sense but the Resistance part of where it is says it should but doesn't is annoying, the boon used to be way much more overpowered and now it's hardly ever useful. I'm fairly certain that the "Poison" part "However, it doesn't negate the reduced healing effectiveness effect from the damaging condition poison." is some lazy cope out for the devs to figure it out because even before Resolution, I grew accustomed play Mallyx with the least Resistance possible and it would be perfectly playable for as long I made sure my heal was properly used, now there's no way to properly use it. You'd be lucky to get off one condition bonus healing without being Poisoned because "ANY" builds that use conditions have Sigil of Doom, it's really unfun and creates such an impossible tension in the synergy that you have no reason to try and play optimally.

You can say "Poison is a damaging condition anyway" but so why is Fear able to do damage yet have it's other effect nullify? Clearly it's possible and the inconsistency shouldn't be slipped under the rug.

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

the description clearly states Non damaging conditions and I would assume that it works against such since Vuln does no damage.

To be fair, that is a bit arguable.

As I said, the only purpose of vulnerability is to increase damage you deal on the target. It might not tick damage itself, but it is indirectly dealing damage by increasing what you deal to them, so I kinda see it as a damaging condition.

Also if we truly go by that description as the end all be all... then resistance would also have to stop countering fear as long as it is caused by a necromancer who uses the terror trait, right? Because that trait makes that fear deals ticking damage, it becomes a damaging condition, so resistance shouldn't stop it anymore?

There are some grey areas. I personally think that vulnerability shouldn't get countered by resistance because it is already countered by protection and resolution (the effectiveness of vulnerability decreases by 33% if the target has these boons). Adding resistance as a complete counter is just not needed in my opinion, it already is countered by boons.

[Shao.7236]

20 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Also if we truly go by that description as the end all be all... then resistance would also have to stop countering fear as long as it is caused by a necromancer who uses the terror trait, right? Because that trait makes that fear deals ticking damage, it becomes a damaging condition, so resistance shouldn't stop it anymore?

Not really, this example is proof that non damaging aspects can be dealt with while damage just remains. It's honestly how it should be because damage was the issue with Resistance in the past, people never used Resistance to nullify effects although it was a good bonus. Now that we want to use Resistance to nullify effects, nothing works right. The boon is incomplete and vague.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Poison shouldn't do damage. 

Resistance should decrease condi duration by 33% like Resolution decreases condi damage by 33%.  

[Vancho.8750]

14 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

To be fair, that is a bit arguable.

As I said, the only purpose of vulnerability is to increase damage you deal on the target. It might not tick damage itself, but it is indirectly dealing damage by increasing what you deal to them, so I kinda see it as a damaging condition.

Also if we truly go by that description as the end all be all... then resistance would also have to stop countering fear as long as it is caused by a necromancer who uses the terror trait, right? Because that trait makes that fear deals ticking damage, it becomes a damaging condition, so resistance shouldn't stop it anymore?

There are some grey areas. I personally think that vulnerability shouldn't get countered by resistance because it is already countered by protection and resolution (the effectiveness of vulnerability decreases by 33% if the target has these boons). Adding resistance as a complete counter is just not needed in my opinion, it already is countered by boons.

Fear is not ticking condi damage its power damage from a trait that is a proc. I personally don't like the proc traits I think they should not be a thing since in allot of cases it causes too much extra damage from random source that usually people would not use defensive cd or dodge on, but that is another subject. 
Vuln is non damaging condition full stop it causes you to take extra damage, but quite frankly all other non damage ones do too.
Why are you repeating yourself about Protection and Resolution? I saw it it and disregarded it since the effect of the condition doesn't matter, Resistance is supposed to be the Stability for condition effects. By your logic we should bin most of the conditions since they kind of do the same thing Immobile and Weakness stop dodging, Cripple and Chill reduce movement speed.

[Kodama.6453]

2 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Fear is not ticking condi damage its power damage from a trait that is a proc. I personally don't like the proc traits I think they should not be a thing since in allot of cases it causes too much extra damage from random source that usually people would not use defensive cd or dodge on, but that is another subject. 
Vuln is non damaging condition full stop it causes you to take extra damage, but quite frankly all other non damage ones do too.
Why are you repeating yourself about Protection and Resolution? I saw it it and disregarded it since the effect of the condition doesn't matter, Resistance is supposed to be the Stability for condition effects. By your logic we should bin most of the conditions since they kind of do the same thing Immobile and Weakness stop dodging, Cripple and Chill reduce movement speed.

Terror

The damage of the trait scales with condition damage, not power. It's damage calculation is exactly like for a damaging condition.

And I think it makes no sense not to consider the effect of a condition. Context matters
I see no point in adding another counter for this condition which already has plenty of counters. That just seems like overkill in my eyes.

[Vancho.8750]

2 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Terror

The damage of the trait scales with condition damage, not power. It's damage calculation is exactly like for a damaging condition.

And I think it makes no sense not to consider the effect of a condition. Context matters
I see no point in adding another counter for this condition which already has plenty of counters. That just seems like overkill in my eyes.

Why does it scale from condition damage when it does strike damage? Another dumb inconsistency. There is no context to be had since it doesn't say it in the kittening game. Two Mechanics that I learn today from one post that they do not work the way they are written in the game.
Also it is not overkill it is supposed to be freedom type boon that lets you to not worry about effects, like I said Stability for conditions. If Stability randomly didn't stop lets say daze everyone will be quite pissy about it.

[Shao.7236]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

And I think it makes no sense not to consider the effect of a condition. Context matters
I see no point in adding another counter for this condition which already has plenty of counters. That just seems like overkill in my eyes.

Vulnerability is universally beneficial to everything damage, but it takes 2 specific ways to counter it, two types of damage it gives benefit to and those two actually act as bigger numbers unlike Resistance which only nullifies. Not improve. If everyone had perfect access to Protection/Resolution, I'd see your point better but no, those two boons are more or less scattered unevenly. Some don't even have proper access to them.

Properly designing Resistance wouldn't make it OP, it would add value to it's already pathetic state. It's not like you're taking away damage from people like the Protection/Resolution does. Vulnerability is common enough already.

[Kodama.6453]

54 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Why does it scale from condition damage when it does strike damage? Another dumb inconsistency. There is no context to be had since it doesn't say it in the kittening game. Two Mechanics that I learn today from one post that they do not work the way they are written in the game.
Also it is not overkill it is supposed to be freedom type boon that lets you to not worry about effects, like I said Stability for conditions. If Stability randomly didn't stop lets say daze everyone will be quite pissy about it.

It doesn't deal strike damage, I guess you think that because of the damage icon they have used in the trait.

It works exactly like any damaging condition. You will see a small fear icon above the model of the affected enemy with a damage number next to it, just like for any other damaging condition. They probably should switch that damage icon from the trait description, I'll give you that.

For me, all is working as intended. Protection and resolution are the boons intended to reduce the damage you take, which includes the extra damage from vulnerability. Resistance will protect you from every condition that is affecting you in any way except "taking damage".

46 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

I'd see your point better but no, those two boons are more or less scattered unevenly. Some don't even have proper access to them.

Making it completely negated by resistance would make it even more unfair. Resistance is also not evenly distributed among classes, some can have it up permanently while others have just very limited access to it. And that unfair distribution has a much larger impact since resistance will completely negate the effect, instead of "just" reducing it's effectiveness by 33% like protection/resolution.

So this point about unfair distribution of boons actually reinforces my thoughts that vulnerability should not get affected by that boon as well.

Edited February 11 by Kodama.6453

[Shao.7236]

Just now, Kodama.6453 said:

Making it completely negated by resistance would make it even more unfair. Resistance is also not evenly distributed among classes, some can have it up permanently while others have just very limited access to it. And that unfair distribution has a much larger impact since resistance will completely negate the effect, instead of "just" reducing it's effectiveness by 33% like protection/resolution.

So this point about unfair distribution of boons actually reinforces my thoughts that vulnerability should not get affected by that boon as well.

Protection and Resolution are still more common and they are more effective than Resistance. It doesn't reinforce your point at all.

[Kodama.6453]

1 minute ago, Shao.7236 said:

Protection and Resolution are still more common and they are more effective than Resistance. It doesn't reinforce your point at all.

They are not as effective against vulnerability than resistance would be. Protection and resolution reduce the effectiveness of vulnerability by 33%. Your suggested change makes it that vulnerability is negated completely.

Which also adds the case of all 3 boons being present, reducing the overall damage even further. Currently, if you have 25 stacks of vulnerability and protection/resolution up, you will take 83,75% damage. You still take reduced damage, but the vulnerability also counteracts the boons somewhat to make the reduction not as hefty.

With protection/resolution and resistance up and your change, the damage you take will be 67%. Protection and resolution still get the full damage reduction while vulnerability is completely negated. I find the first case with vulnerability and protection/resolution working antagonistic to each other more desirable personally. Vulnerability might be common, but also needs to get stacked up. I think it should get some reward for doing so, instead of just being completely tossed to the side.

[Shao.7236]

3 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Which also adds the case of all 3 boons being present, reducing the overall damage even further. Currently, if you have 25 stacks of vulnerability and protection/resolution up, you will take 83,75% damage. You still take reduced damage, but the vulnerability also counteracts the boons somewhat to make the reduction not as hefty.

Stop here and let it be assumed it's possible to do so reliably. Do you think anyone would still be able to do any damage that way? That's not the Resistance fault in that case, that's the profession being over designed.

3 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

They are not as effective against vulnerability than resistance would be. Protection and resolution reduce the effectiveness of vulnerability by 33%. Your suggested change makes it that vulnerability is negated completely.

Source me that unknown hidden fact, otherwise I'm considering it false until then. The math doesn't add up.

[Kodama.6453]

1 minute ago, Shao.7236 said:

Source me that unknown hidden fact, otherwise I'm considering it false until then. The math doesn't add up.

?????
What?

Protection reduces strike damage against you, resolution reduces condition damage against you. Both by 33%. Vulnerability increases strike damage against you, by 1% for each stack. These increases and reductions are multiplicating damage, so how does this math not add up for you?

If all your strike damage is decreased by 33%, then this also means that 33% of the strike damage you got from vulnerability is taken away. That's just simple multiplication, what is the problem here?

[Shao.7236]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

?????
What?

Protection reduces strike damage against you, resolution reduces condition damage against you. Both by 33%. Vulnerability increases strike damage against you, by 1% for each stack. These increases and reductions are multiplicating damage, so how does this math not add up for you?

If all your strike damage is decreased by 33%, then this also means that 33% of the strike damage you got from vulnerability is taken away. That's just simple multiplication, what is the problem here?

Except that leaves Protection with a little bit to work with, Resistance doesn't do anything more.

[Lucentfir.7430]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Poison shouldn't do damage. 

Resistance should decrease condi duration by 33% like Resolution decreases condi damage by 33%.  

It feels like we're going in circles. Before having Resistance completely nullify conditions, then trying to balance it split it into 2 different effects between Resolution, and Resistance (null non damage conditions). People aren't happy with it because of some interactions for specific professions  now, so now people want Resistance to also have -33% Condition damage as well as Resolution for another source of condi damage mitigation having cond damage be like foam projectiles??? 

Should split the condition into Poison and Toxin. Toxin would be a low damage -> high damage DoT the longer you have it on you, the more damage it does(at a cap per stack), and Poison should be a stacking healing debuff, 3% per stack but affected by resistance. 

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

It feels like we're going in circles. Before having Resistance completely nullify conditions, then trying to balance it split it into 2 different effects between Resolution, and Resistance (null non damage conditions). People aren't happy with it because of some interactions for specific professions  now, so now people want Resistance to also have -33% Condition damage as well as Resolution for another source of condi damage mitigation having cond damage be like foam projectiles??? 

Should split the condition into Poison and Toxin. Toxin would be a low damage -> high damage DoT the longer you have it on you, the more damage it does(at a cap per stack), and Poison should be a stacking healing debuff, 3% per stack but affected by resistance. 

One thing for sure, Resistance is underwhelmingly useless and some conditions are just must haves because they have no passive counters, only reactive.

I say that Resistance should at least live up to it's tool tip and act as a "Resistance" towards non damaging condition effects so that it's actually useful for something at least.

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

I say that Resistance should at least live up to it's tool tip and act as a "Resistance" towards non damaging condition effects so that it's actually useful for something at least.

Useful for something at least?

Do you really believe that resistance isn't already extremely useful? Resistance spam is one of the reasons warrior became pretty strong after the defense rework. Being allowed to ignore inhibiting conditions like chill, cripple, weakness, blind, etc. is actually pretty kitten good.

[Shao.7236]

15 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Useful for something at least?

Do you really believe that resistance isn't already extremely useful? Resistance spam is one of the reasons warrior became pretty strong after the defense rework. Being allowed to ignore inhibiting conditions like chill, cripple, weakness, blind, etc. is actually pretty kitten good.

Yes let's neglect everything else in the game just because Warrior has an overpowered re-design. Why don't we not see Mallyx Revenants everywhere if it's that good? Because it ain't. Who ever thought it'd be okay to grant Resistance on evade should also restore the trait that gave Stability on evade for Revenant while at it, even better. Remove the ICD from Demonic Defiance and increase it to 3 seconds.

[Zuko.7132]

Vulnerability is a non-damaging condition. It is a condition that does no damage. Resistance should work on it according to the description. This is a bug unless they change the tooltip for resistance.

[Kodama.6453]

4 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Yes let's neglect everything else in the game just because Warrior has an overpowered re-design. Why don't we not see Mallyx Revenants everywhere if it's that good? Because it ain't. Who ever thought it'd be okay to grant Resistance on evade should also restore the trait that gave Stability on evade for Revenant while at it, even better. Remove the ICD from Demonic Defiance and increase it to 3 seconds.

Mallyx rev has problems, but not because resistance would be actually bad.

It's struggle is that Mallyx got designed with a very specific gameplay in mind, which has been to pull conditions onto yourself which you then copy onto enemies, which was enabled by the pre-rework version of resistance, since it negated all conditions (including damaging ones) completely.

Once they removed that resistance completely negates condition damage, that design premise fell apart and the demonic stance simply doesn't work as it has been intended ever since. Because if you pull allied conditions onto yourself, you will die pretty kitten quick to the condition damage, even if they gave it resolution (since this just negates 1/3rd of the condition damage, you still take alot of damage).

Mallyx is not the only skill which suffered from this rework of the boon. Another example would be ranger's signet of renewal, which worked with a very similar design premise: the signet active effect pulls allied conditions onto the ranger's pet, which also gains resistance. But since that doesn't prevent condition damage anymore, this button now serves as a kill button for your own pet.

Resistance as a boon is quite useful, powerful even. Mallyx and Signet of Renewal are not pointing at the boon being weak, these skills are weak because they got designed with the premise that resistance will negate all condition damage. The problem is that these skills didn't get reworked properly once resistance got it's functionality changed, but the boon itself is in no way weak.

[Shao.7236]

23 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Resistance as a boon is quite useful, powerful even. Mallyx and Signet of Renewal are not pointing at the boon being weak, these skills are weak because they got designed with the premise that resistance will negate all condition damage. The problem is that these skills didn't get reworked properly once resistance got it's functionality changed, but the boon itself is in no way weak.

The only sole and exclusive reason why Mallyx is "bad" right now is Poison not being countered by Resistance, the latter with Vulnerability or anything would only be for the sake of consistency with the tooltip. The legend doesn't need to be overdone like before, as I stated, it was perfectly fine to play without an over abundance of Resistance unless healing was needed to prevent Poison debuff, Resolution can deny enough damage for any sort of sustain.

Edited February 12 by Shao.7236