[WvW] R.I.P. Reaper

[Dr Meta.3158]

40 minutes ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

It is NOT about skill! Reaper (and necro in general) has several intrinsic flaws which make it worse at roaming than any other class.

Does that mean a Reaper can't solo 3v1 against some bad (brain afk) players? No, ofc that works. But that is not what anybody is talking about, since you could do 1vX against bad players with any other class. That is not the point. The point is that once a Reaper faces a player (or God forbin: multiple players) of comparable skill, more often than not he is going to have a bad time.

 

 

What are the flaws? You're assuming people are only fighting bad players. If anyone is facing multiple players of equivalent skill and NOT having a bad time, they're playing an extremely broken class. 

Personally the only class, well the only skill I struggle with is black powder from a good thief but thief is just a problem in general too. It would be amazing if the shout trait was amended to give resistance on shout use, but I doubt that would ever happen.

[Mikhael.2391]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:47 AM, KrHome.1920 said:

You can't kill thieves but neither can they kill you as you can just run away from them and they need all their tools to catch up which will turn out badly for them, if you suddenly start to fight them after they burned their initiative and shadowstep to chase you.

As long as speed rune exists in its current form, the spec is in a great spot.

I don't know what trash builds you all play, but saying reaper is bad in roaming is hilarious. 

Mind sharing videos of these performances because a same lvl of skill thief or mesmer or range ror any other class on the meta for roaming will shutdown reaper , hell even less skill players than you have an advantage due to the lack of resources on reaper/core necro. They are just ragdolls.

[Nimon.7840]

9 hours ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

Mind sharing videos of these performances because a same lvl of skill thief or mesmer or range ror any other class on the meta for roaming will shutdown reaper , hell even less skill players than you have an advantage due to the lack of resources on reaper/core necro. They are just ragdolls.

Played quite a bit of cele speed rune reaper over the weekend. (Curses: mid-mid-top, soulreaping: mid-top-bot, reaper: bot-mid-bot, staff with energy and cleansing sigil+ Szepter/warhorn with energy and doom sigil, healshout, Wurm, spectral walk, spectral armor, elite shout)

 

And in my opinion it's so bad...

Can you kill harbingers with it: yes

Can you kill any other good roaming build with it? - no

The damage is nowhere near being good and the sustain is pretty weak.

Every boon beast or willbender with one braincell can just delete you, and thieves will just run away if you get them below 50% which takes way too long.

The build has big issues with incoming conditions and still the same weakness as any other Necro: getting cc'd.

 

I could switch stuff up, for example taking blood magic, to get more sustain, but that also results in even less damage.

 

And as I mentioned before. In my opinion it's not a good roaming build, if you basically have to swap half your build depending on encounter, because often you can't decide, whether you want to fight or not on necro.

 

[Ya Ya Yeah.7381]

The problem with reaper is actually a very old one that goes back to the original release of the deathly chill damage.

They nerfed it because it was to strong on capture points for the most part or anytime you had players grouped up, the cleave plus the slow was crazy. I would frequently 1v5 players at camps.

You see, chill used to actually cause damage via the trait and CHILL targets to slow, this was before they removed it and changed it to bleeding stacks. When it was originally designed the Deathly Chill trait cause chill to do damage AND slow its opponents, which was really strong, but it was in line with the original design being that Reaper is a melee spec. Basically, if you got close enough to your enemy they were going to pay dearly. The fact that chill was so accessible basically whenever you got close to reaper you were permanently slowed down (think chilling fog without the fog effect visible) sort of. 

First, they nerfed the damage to deathly chill, which was fine. Then they nerfed the damage multiplier which was fine also. Then the changed the trait to cause bleeding. Now here is where the problem began. Simply because it took away reaper gap closing advantage without the mobile CC of chill effect. The Reaper class WAS designed in the fashion of it having that component. Everything since this has been trying to fix the fact that it has a undesigned broken mechanic.

HOW TO FIX? I honestly don't know; we have what we have, and I think that is about it. Giving it more damage would be ok but that still isn't going to give it an advantage against so many other more mobile builds and ones with more defenses besides a few extra k health on a slow regen process.

I think Reaper does great in WvW zergs and in certain Spvp situations depending on the builds they are facing.

[Cuks.8241]

While Scourge is probably objectively better for squad play in most scenarios, I still prefer Reaper unless I know we won't get much melee play. That melee burst is just so nice.

Roaming? Yeah well you can't have everything.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

8 hours ago, Crazy.6029 said:

chill used to actually cause damage via the trait and CHILL targets to slow

ah, the original concept of a class that you couldn't escape from once it engaged in combat...

[Dr Meta.3158]

1 hour ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

ah, the original concept of a class that you couldn't escape from once it engaged in combat...

The deviation from that might be why it folds to thief.

[ZTeamG.4603]

The problems with Reaper in roaming stem from two main things:

1. Reaper needs to stay in close to maximize damage. Your ranged options are: 

Power: Axe, for a single target burst from Axe 2 and a mediocre AoE with Axe 3. Axe1 is just for applying vuln and poking. + a few others that are mostly utility.

Condi:  Staff, which has low DPS and is more for applying some pressure at range. Scepter, which has a boonstrip but is otherwise lackluster. + a few other things that are mostly utility.

You get 1 gap closer (Shroud2) and up to 2 pulls depending on weapon/utility choice. 

2. Necro as a whole lacks blocks, evades, and stability. 

You have an extra healthbar, but it is also tied to your damage. Sure you get some damage reduction with it, but it melts under pressure and can be difficult to replenish while under pressure.

You have no access to blocks (aside from a couple projectile destruction things).

Your only evades are your dodges.

You have 1 short duration stability.

And obviously you have no stealth.

When you combine all these factors, you have a class that struggles under pressure, struggles to maintain pressure on targets that kite it, is very susceptible to stunlocks, and doesn't have the tools to box in close range against other close range classes. Reaper's shroud is a mechanic that is very useful in open world, where blocks/evades/invulns are not nearly as worthwhile as an extra healthbar, but against players it makes you an easy target compared to the other mechanics.

 

Let's look at Willbender, the current king of close range. On paper it is squishier than reaper, but it has access to plenty of blocks, evades, invulns, and stability. It also has more and better gap closers to keep it on top of its targets and does more damage in general. 

 

Classes that can stay away from Reaper have an easy time beating it unless you get some hard reads on them. I've also made a celestial reaper build work, but a class that has to rely on celestial to survive and speed runes to keep up does not have all the tools to be considered a good roaming class. I used to roam on power reaper before EoD and that was already an uphill battle, but power reaper is completely outclassed by most of the new and updated specs.

[captrowdy.9561]

Im still killing folks on my reaper. Could it use buffs? Yes but it still works. If I want things to be easier I just switch to harb. If I’m on my reaper I try not to start a fight with a ranger in open field. I like being creative to close the gap. Reaper getting more defense would be super cool. 

[Dr Meta.3158]

On 3/1/2023 at 6:55 PM, ZTeamG.4603 said:

The problems with Reaper in roaming stem from two main things:

1. Reaper needs to stay in close to maximize damage. Your ranged options are: 

Power: Axe, for a single target burst from Axe 2 and a mediocre AoE with Axe 3. Axe1 is just for applying vuln and poking. + a few others that are mostly utility.

Condi:  Staff, which has low DPS and is more for applying some pressure at range. Scepter, which has a boonstrip but is otherwise lackluster. + a few other things that are mostly utility.

You get 1 gap closer (Shroud2) and up to 2 pulls depending on weapon/utility choice. 

2. Necro as a whole lacks blocks, evades, and stability. 

You have an extra healthbar, but it is also tied to your damage. Sure you get some damage reduction with it, but it melts under pressure and can be difficult to replenish while under pressure.

You have no access to blocks (aside from a couple projectile destruction things).

Your only evades are your dodges.

You have 1 short duration stability.

And obviously you have no stealth.

When you combine all these factors, you have a class that struggles under pressure, struggles to maintain pressure on targets that kite it, is very susceptible to stunlocks, and doesn't have the tools to box in close range against other close range classes. Reaper's shroud is a mechanic that is very useful in open world, where blocks/evades/invulns are not nearly as worthwhile as an extra healthbar, but against players it makes you an easy target compared to the other mechanics.

 

Let's look at Willbender, the current king of close range. On paper it is squishier than reaper, but it has access to plenty of blocks, evades, invulns, and stability. It also has more and better gap closers to keep it on top of its targets and does more damage in general. 

 

Classes that can stay away from Reaper have an easy time beating it unless you get some hard reads on them. I've also made a celestial reaper build work, but a class that has to rely on celestial to survive and speed runes to keep up does not have all the tools to be considered a good roaming class. I used to roam on power reaper before EoD and that was already an uphill battle, but power reaper is completely outclassed by most of the new and updated specs.

The other problem that I never see people discussing about necromancer in general is the reliance to hit people in order to sustain itself via lifesteal and/or life force gain and/or crowd control. As you face classes with less reliance on tanking damage and more reliance on CC, evades, blocks, invulnerabilities, and stealth, the weaker the class becomes with the weakest point being thieves that can chain CC inbetween attacks before reseting using stealth. Normally you could resustain during the stealth times but since you are mostly required to hit to resustain, you lose the battle of attrition on a class with the class description of an attrition class.

Repeat itself is thematically great. It is one of the few classes that actually follows its theme really well as a frost death knight in its design, it just doesn't perform since the initial HOT changes and being outdated since POF and EOD.

You can, however, absolutely beat people if you become good at the class but you are required to not make any mistakes in your play otherwise one mistake and you're finished.

[KrHome.1920]

Self sustain was a problem, when skills like spectral armor, rise and all heals had high cooldowns. Reaper was basically only playable in soldier gear in WvW, which caused issues against condi bunkers and thieves (for both you need burst). This has changed drastically as anet finally lowered the cooldowns of key sustain mechanics. A marauder BM, SR, ysim!, rise!, spectral armor, spectral walk reaper can outsustain dragonhunters these days when played competently. Dragonhunter was the nemesis for marauder reaper since 2015 as it could burst like crazy while just blocking everything for around 10 seconds and you needed soldier gear to survive that. That's not necessary anymore.

In fact the sustain of soldier reaper is completely redundant these days (not saying this is overpowered, it has been like that for pretty much every spec except reaper for years, e.g. it is impossible to die on soldier thief or soldier soulbeast as long as you don't go afk).

Seriously, when I read this thread I am asking myself how competent the "reaper sucks" players really are here. But actually I can't blame you. I produce baffled defeated encounters pretty much every day as no one seems to know what a great duellist reaper can be.

Quote

willbender with one braincell can just delete you

That post showcases the lack of skill or the lack of class understanding in this thread perfectly. I've duelled some of the most competent willbenders in EU and I've beaten each of them.

The only threat for reaper is thief (daredevil and deadeye), if you try to fight it. Everything else is easily manageable with some build adjustments. And thieves ... who is dumb enough to still fight them 1v1 in 2023? You just ignore them (move away and drop a stun, each time they come close). This class is not worth fighting because endless resets.

Edited March 7, 2023 by KrHome.1920

[Nefras.7314]

On 2/28/2023 at 8:23 AM, Nimon.7840 said:

Every boon beast or willbender with one braincell can just delete you

I really dont understand how youre struggling against either of those. Reaper counters Willbender hard on the correct build, just dont play cele reaper lol

[Nimon.7840]

30 minutes ago, Nefras.7314 said:

I really dont understand how youre struggling against either of those. Reaper counters Willbender hard on the correct build, just dont play cele reaper lol

Sure u can somewhat counter them, but what I'm saying is that reaper isn't a good roamer, because you literally have to change half your build, depending on enemy class.

I just tried cele because someone claimed it was "op" but it's not.

Better play some zerker/marauder setup to get a much higher burst. 

If you don't know that there's a willbender or soulbeast around, they will 80% of the time kill you, unless you are a better player.

For example well of darkness is extremely good against willbenders, same as unlockable staff marks, but you don't run either of those an every build.

 

For me, GS + axe/focus works best. In most encounters.

But against thieves you kinda don't even have to try, if you don't have a staff equipped.

Reaper is not like shortbow+dagger/pistol daredevil, that basically only has a hard time against Mesmer (well I didn't watch thief players for a longer time now, but that's how it used to be).

For me a good build only switches out a trait or two, or an utility skill or two, but not half your build just because you play against class x. At least if you don't really have much mobility to get out of combat and switch real fast.

[Seuchenherbst.2746]

On 3/7/2023 at 5:56 PM, KrHome.1920 said:

Self sustain was a problem, when skills like spectral armor, rise and all heals had high cooldowns. Reaper was basically only playable in soldier gear in WvW, which caused issues against condi bunkers and thieves (for both you need burst). This has changed drastically as anet finally lowered the cooldowns of key sustain mechanics. A marauder BM, SR, ysim!, rise!, spectral armor, spectral walk reaper can outsustain dragonhunters these days when played competently. Dragonhunter was the nemesis for marauder reaper since 2015 as it could burst like crazy while just blocking everything for around 10 seconds and you needed soldier gear to survive that. That's not necessary anymore.

In fact the sustain of soldier reaper is completely redundant these days (not saying this is overpowered, it has been like that for pretty much every spec except reaper for years, e.g. it is impossible to die on soldier thief or soldier soulbeast as long as you don't go afk).

Seriously, when I read this thread I am asking myself how competent the "reaper sucks" players really are here. But actually I can't blame you. I produce baffled defeated encounters pretty much every day as no one seems to know what a great duellist reaper can be.

about time someone posted some good old satire. thanks for the laugh!

[Nimon.7840]

9 hours ago, Seuchenherbst.2746 said:

about time someone posted some good old satire. thanks for the laugh!

 

But I am the best reaper player after hollts!

Irony off.

 

All I see is just claims, how strong reaper is, and especially how good @KrHome.1920is, defeating the best players on their main classes, without any (visual) proof.

nor providing the full builds to try them out ourselves.

Seems more like all mouth and no trousers.

 

[Dr Meta.3158]

Reaper is good, not bad, not great.

[Dadnir.5038]

4 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Reaper is good, not bad, not great.

You're not wrong, yet:

• Thematically reaper is probably the most attractive spec of the necromancer.
• In open world PvE it is pretty good until you tackle champion/boss alone.
• In instanced PvE it often only contribute in damage which isn't something especially appaeling granted that it's not a high scorer.
• In PvP it is Ok'ish
• In WvW Zerg, it isn't an especially attractive choice.
• In WvW roaming, it's not for everyone.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

WvW roaming on a power Reaper is one of my most fun excursions in WvW.

If you know how to do it, people often underestimate you and pay for it.

It is also very possible to CC juggle people and rip through them. People never expect to be CC juggled by a Reaper.

[Dr Meta.3158]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You're not wrong, yet:

• Thematically reaper is probably the most attractive spec of the necromancer.
• In open world PvE it is pretty good until you tackle champion/boss alone.
• In instanced PvE it often only contribute in damage which isn't something especially appaeling granted that it's not a high scorer.
• In PvP it is Ok'ish
• In WvW Zerg, it isn't an especially attractive choice.
• In WvW roaming, it's not for everyone.

Honestly, I've said it before. Reaper is the gold standard.

1. It fits its theme very well.

2. Its fun to play

3. Its simple to learn, difficult to master.

4. It has clear and reactable attacks that other people can reasonably respond to.

5. It has clear strengths and weaknesses.

Reaper is like Rise! It is thematic to the class (necromancy), it has a good floor and ceiling, it allows a variety of synergy with traits across specializations. It fits for the role Reaper was intended for (bruiser). Yet in application it drops the ball just enough to not warrant a pick over something else mainly because the minions are too slow and easily countered. That's poetic.

[captrowdy.9561]

Has anyone been using shouts lately? I’m not a fan of wurm but I always use spectral walk and armor. So I have a flex slot. I usually use pull but would like to try some other things. 

[Boh.4568]

6 hours ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

Has anyone been using shouts lately? I’m not a fan of wurm but I always use spectral walk and armor. So I have a flex slot. I usually use pull but would like to try some other things. 

Shout heal and shout elite are in 100% of my builds. I usually slot NCSY! in group fights, along with a well or two, depending if I have party stab, else just well of corruption and a stunbreak for pugging.

I rarely roam but I would need two stunbreaks at least, and then well of darkness or spectral ring or poison cloud. I don't like the shout stunbreak and wurm is too janky, I prefer spectral walk + speed runes + speed of shadows trait, and spectral armor.

[Dr Meta.3158]

6 hours ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

Has anyone been using shouts lately? I’m not a fan of wurm but I always use spectral walk and armor. So I have a flex slot. I usually use pull but would like to try some other things. 

Just the heal and the elite. Those are the only good shouts. Nothing can save you is a niche slot on if you happen to run into a virtuoso.

I've started to dial back on using flesh wurm. Its slowness/fixed location, tendency to fail, and cooldown increase to 40 seconds just puts me off of it.

I use spectral armor and walk. Every other utility skill falls off a cliff after those two. The greatest thing that could happen were if wells stuck to you like they did with gyros. That would make them a lot more viable for pve and make melee play outside of shroud more reasonable.