Calling it out now - Patch results prediction

[shion.2084]

2 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

In team fights this is generally true because FC is AOE so it is bound to hit something, however in side node fights this is a huge nerf because you can effectively bait out an FC and save a dodge to avoid the counter now. There is a .5 sec or so delay between when you hit FC and when FC hits you. More people need to realize this.

This change will see more warriors losing out on side nodes against equally skilled players. It is a good change because it lowers the mechanical power of side noding SB's, and as others have pointed out, now SB's have to actually land their burst to get their traits to proc like every other warrior spec. It evens the playing field so no matter how you slice it, it is a hit to SB's, and a pretty decent one at that.

 

I'd like to point out once again though of your completely dismissive attitude to anyone that disagrees with you.

You said SB received no nerfs, then someone pointed out to you that they did in fact receive a pretty hefty nerf, and you dismissed it with nonsense, moving the goal post to something else. You really need to stop posting things as if they are fact, and be more open minded to other perspectives because you post a lot of biased misinformation. It is okay to be wrong on some things.

Wait, so I use mortar fields and things like thunderclap and shredder gyro to try to fight an SB, my question is how do i stop it from procing full counter exactly?  My fields last for some period of time and you can’t cancel shredder.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

14 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Wait, so I use mortar fields and things like thunderclap and shredder gyro to try to fight an SB, my question is how do i stop it from procing full counter exactly?  My fields last for some period of time and you can’t cancel shredder.

Not a problem. After the change full counter must hit you with it's counter attack to trigger the traits.
Triggering full counter won't be a problem. Letting it hit you will.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I'd like to point out once again though of your completely dismissive attitude to anyone that disagrees with you.

You said SB received no nerfs, then someone pointed out to you that they did in fact receive a pretty hefty nerf, and you dismissed it with nonsense, moving the goal post to something else

It's not dismissive, it's not nonsense, it wasn't moving any goal posts, and it wasn't a heavy nerf.

I stated that higher tiered Spellbreakers have extremely high success rates landing any bursts, which is 100% true. This nerf will barely effect them if it effects them at all.

Let us not forget that these higher tiered Spellbreakers were playing for years as Strength Spellbreakers that were not utilizing AH or CI, and they were able to keep up just fine while maintaining stature as some of the most threatening 1v1 side noders. These top tier Spellbreaker players are the ones I'm talking about. You greatly underestimate their skill at making sure the Full Counter lands when it counts.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 ^

Edited February 12, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Waffles.5632]

15 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Wait, so I use mortar fields and things like thunderclap and shredder gyro to try to fight an SB, my question is how do i stop it from procing full counter exactly?  My fields last for some period of time and you can’t cancel shredder.

FC has 2 parts. First it absorbs a "hit", then counters said damage with it's own attack.

As it is currently, all of the "burst" traits for warrior activate off the first part, but after patch, they will only activate off the second part.

So, SB uses FC in your shredder gyro field, as soon as any hit connects, they are getting all their burst traits activated. However after patch, in that same scenario, if you dodge the 2nd part, none of those traits will activate, because they now need to hit you, not for you to stop hitting them.

In 1v1 against SB, this means they won't get adrenal health if you time and evade their FC appropriately, thus securing the win and the node. It makes SB's far easier to approach and be aggressive against.

[Waffles.5632]

5 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's not dismissive, it's not nonsense, it wasn't moving any goal posts, and it wasn't a heavy nerf.

Quote

Spellbreaker will continue to run amuck because it is for whatever reason not receiving any nerfing.

 

Your own words.

So are you still standing by your position that SB received no nerfs or are you changing your position now to SB received no "heavy" nerfs? I just want to understand which goal post we're on now before you dismiss more people again since apparently we're now only talking about the most elite SB's.

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

22 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

 

Your own words.

So are you still standing by your position that SB received no nerfs or are you changing your position now to SB received no "heavy" nerfs? I just want to understand which goal post we're on now before you dismiss more people again since apparently we're now only talking about the most elite SB's.

 

 

Although I did specify that I was discussing higher tiered play twice now, I never once changed any goal posts or points made, so knock off the logical fallacy. Seriously man, if you don't have any substantial feedback for discussion beyond wile attempts to misrepresent the flow of the thread and what people have said & meant by what they said, just go do something else.

Furthermore, by this point in this forum's history, you should know that when I am discussing balance, I'm talking about higher tiered play like in the final rounds of ATs. I never use unranked/ranked/ffa average player play as a reference for balance, ever. I have always been concerned with how things work at the most competitive levels and as much is quite clear from reading any of my posted content, so let's not act like you were at all confused on that.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

39 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

wasn't a heavy nerf.

 

Does it deserve a heavy nerf?

 

39 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Let us not forget that these higher tiered Spellbreakers were playing for years as Strength Spellbreakers that were not utilizing AH or CI, and they were able to keep up just fine while maintaining stature as the most threatening 1v1 side noders.

So? Strength Spellbreakers are also affected by the full counter nerf. 

Also, Spellbreaker was the most threatening sidenoder this whole time? I could have sworn that was something else and there were no spellbreakers in MaT for some time. 

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These top tier Spellbreaker players are the ones I'm talking about. You greatly underestimate their skill at making sure the Full Counter lands when it counts.

Heavily nerfing spellbreakers that can make FC land when it counts for that reason alone beyond punishing them for not performing isn't the way. Their opponent has enough agency to create situations where FC misses, they are not helpless.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Don't agree, see above (or the bottom of the last page, I guess?).  Not only is it a nerf it -also- makes every build that uses Adrenal Health weaker. 

Unless your build literally cannot stop attacking in which case tell me which mechanic is sloppier.

I was referring more to Fierce Blow and the way FC will proc traits. With good usage they are not really nerfs.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I was referring more to Fierce Blow and the way FC will proc traits. With good usage they are not really nerfs.

I don't consider the angle of "with good usage, they are not nerfs" to be correct, since your definition of "good usage" here depends largely on the behavior of an opponent that has no obligation to let FC hit them.

You can use FC well, your opponent can stow or see that they hit it and immediately dodge, and you will be punished across the board for this interaction. 

The only situations where a player would have less control over this interaction is if they are heavily ranged AND have a pet or some other add up the warriors butt that can be hit by full counter, in which case give the warrior their procs, you're challenging them from across the map. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[shion.2084]

48 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Not a problem. After the change full counter must hit you with it's counter attack to trigger the traits.
Triggering full counter won't be a problem. Letting it hit you will.

While I have shredder on for 10 seconds… how many times do I have to dodge the counter?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

While I have shredder on for 10 seconds… how many times do I have to dodge the counter?

once.... at most, twice. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[shion.2084]

Just now, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

once....

Cool so if you dodge FC once it doesn’t trigger any more?  I thought it went for some period of time.

 

I guess the only issue is, after dodging the FC the other CC’s that hammer has and the one dodge I have left

[Waffles.5632]

22 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Although I did specify that I was discussing higher tiered play twice now, I never once changed any goal posts or points made, so knock off the logical fallacy. Seriously man, if you don't have any substantial feedback for discussion beyond wile attempts to misrepresent the flow of the thread and what people have said & meant by what they said, just go do something else.

Furthermore, by this point in this forum's history, you should know that when I am discussing balance, I'm talking about higher tiered play like in the final rounds of ATs. I never use unranked/ranked/ffa average player play as a reference for balance, ever. I have always been concerned with how things work at the most competitive levels and as much is quite clear from reading any of my posted content, so let's not act like you were at all confused on that.

It's not surprising to see you double and triple down and then even try to turn it all against me somehow as if I'm the one that made the thread and started this lol. You need to work on your communication skills it's as simple as that.

At no point during any exchange did you take any fault for any thing here, that in itself is very telling. A simple my b and an edit of your original post would have prevented all of this, just letting you know. Something like no nerfs outside of FC change, because that is a hefty nerf, even for high tiered SB's.

And that's why I called it nonsense, because you can't say "this isn't a nerf because high level players will work around it" because going by that same logic, cata wasn't nerfed at all because high level players will work around it. No class was nerfed because high level players will work around it.

 

Mirage has never been nerfed because I have found ways to work around one dodge. etc etc etc

 

Like no, it's 100% by the very definition, a nerf. Your ego is just too big to admit you got one thing wrong so you're literally making up reasons why I'm wrong and why others are wrong. The fact is though, FC dynamic is getting changed from "You need to stop hitting the Warrior" to "The Warrior needs to hit you" and that is a nerf because it makes all burst related traits for SB harder to proc, regardless of skill. Every SB will be affected.

So instead of making up more and more ridiculous things to say, just take the L, admit FC change is actually a pretty heavy handed nerf to SB, and let's talk about other things to nerf between Cata, Virtu, and SB.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

7 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

While I have shredder on for 10 seconds… how many times do I have to dodge the counter?

two.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Cool so if you dodge FC once it doesn’t trigger any more?  I thought it went for some period of time.

 

I guess the only issue is, after dodging the FC the other CC’s that hammer has and the one dodge I have left

 

Shredder only lasts six seconds, by the way, so it's once. I feel like you pressing shredder gyro in the window that FC is down should be your obligation. On paper you don't have to dodge FC at all to use this skill and get full value out of it. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

7 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Does it deserve a heavy nerf?

I never said or implied anything towards any of that.

I was responding to Captain Misrepresentation who said "the change to FC was a heavy nerf" and I simply said it wasn't a heavy nerf.

If you reread back through things that actually said in this thread, I've said nothing except that Spellbreaker was receiving barely any nerfs at all, and that the nerf to FC would barely if it at all, effect higher tiered play.

Don't let the misrepresentation tactics from the Captain work on you man. He's just trying to stir **** up and make it look like I was attacking Spellbreaker when in reality I barely said anything about it at all.

11 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Also, Spellbreaker was the most threatening sidenoder this whole time?

Apparently it did say that and that was not what I mean to say. I am almost 100% certain that before I pushed enter on that entry, it said "some of the most threatening side node presence", and you know what? This is not the first time I've noticed small changes in my text at weird precise moments that is even typed correctly, to make my statements look incorrect. I'm starting to wonder why that keeps happening.

16 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You will cause problems for your balancing suggestions going forward.

Bro I didn't make any balance suggestions, don't let the work of Captain Misrepresentation work on you. Reread through the thread again. I've said nothing outside of two things: 1) Spellbreaker will still dominate because it is receiving barely any nerfs. 2) That the nerf to FC will barely effect higher tiered Spellbreakers at all.

Literally everything else I've said, was in response to misrepresented statements, pointing out that I never said any of the things that people are insinuating that I said.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Trevor Boyer.6524

Quote

I never said or implied anything towards any of that.

I know. I'm just verifying because the nerf is pretty sizeable for the reasons mentioned above. The implication thing, I disagree with

Quote

Apparently it did say that and that was not what I mean to say. I am almost 100% certain that before I pushed enter on that entry, it said "some of the most threatening side node presence", and you know what? This is not the first time I've noticed small changes in my text at weird precise moments that is even typed correctly, to make my statements look incorrect. I'm starting to wonder why that keeps happening.

Understandable.

Quote

Bro I didn't make any balance suggestions, don't let the work of Captain Misrepresentation work on you. Reread through the thread again. I've said nothing outside of two things: 1) Spellbreaker will still dominate because it is receiving barely any nerfs. 2) That the nerf to FC will barely effect higher tiered Spellbreakers at all.

Literally everything else I've said, was in response to misrepresented statements, pointing out that I never said any of the things that people are insinuating that I said.

I know you didn't say you wanted heavy nerfs.

My hangup is with the concerning fact that "spellbreaker no longer procs any of its burst related traits if you dodge full counter" is barely seen as a nerf, and I am trying to see what your -full- opinion is on that. Not seeing the proposed change as a sidenoding nerf implies that you wanted something else to happen (either instead of or in addition to what did), which I would consider to be heavier (to the point of being unnecessary, but that's neither here nor there.).

My point is:

Quote

Their opponent has enough agency to create situations where FC misses, they are not helpless.

If you stow or dodge at any point during FC, the warrior gets nothing. No strength mods, no health regeneration, no condi cleanse. How that is being barely seen as anything is flummoxing.

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I am trying to see what your -full- opinion is on that.

Well if you want to the best possible explanation, go 1v1 Vaans or Tycura or Peanut or Yerloqq for awhile.

Not being sarcastic, being serious. I think you'd at least see where I'm coming from after doing so.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Well if you want to the best possible explanation, go 1v1 Vaans or Tycura or Peanut or Yerloqq for awhile.

Not being sarcastic, being serious. I think you'd at least see where I'm coming from after doing so.

 

I fight Yerloqq all the time. He's good at the game, but I dodge his full counters and sometimes take fights off of him. Same for Tycura, I think. The name is familiar but I can't put a playstyle to it.

I usually only lose if I waste a defensive. The difficulty in fighting them is not due to the innate mechanics of spellbreaker being too strong. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Saiyan.1704]

3 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

If they really do some patches mid seasons for catalysts then holo gets a big opening.

Anet releasing a pvp balance patch mid season to address an issue? Lol! Thanks for the chuckle. I'm going to show this to my very real nonimaginary gf so that she too can have a laugh.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Saiyan.1704

[Waffles.5632]

7 minutes ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

Anet releasing a pvp balance patches mid season to address an issue? Lol! Thanks for the chuckle. I'm going to show this to my very real nonimaginary gf so that she too can have a laugh.

I imagine most pvpers now are more or less waiting on the sidelines until Cata gets dealt with. Personally speaking idk if the changes are enough, but we shall see.

Regardless though, the moment Cata gets nerfed, which might take a few years going by Anet's schedule lol, I too think holo is gonna fill that gap quickly. Either that or the resurgence of bladesworn because giving the gunsabre all ranged attacks seems a bit worrying to me for pvp, but all speculation just for now.

Historically Warriors have always suffered with range, so that is why I'm a bit worried about BS again.

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[aymnad.9023]

2 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

Anet releasing a pvp balance patch mid season to address an issue? Lol! Thanks for the chuckle. I'm going to show this to my very real nonimaginary gf so that she too can have a laugh.

During the stream they said "if the nerfs that we are doing in this patch  aren't enough we are prepared to hit it again more quickly, we are not going to wait for the next balance update to touch it" so this is my base for the "if"  😉. It will probably still mean wait at least one month (mAT and few weeks of the season) but that's still something if it happens.

Edited February 12, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Eddie.9143]

4 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

During the stream they said "if the nerfs that we are doing in this patch  aren't enough we are prepared to hit it again more quickly, we are not going to wait for the next balance update to touch it" so this is my base for the "if"  😉. It will probably still mean wait at least one month (mAT and few weeks of the season) but that's still something if it happens.

You still don't know when theyre lying to you.

[aymnad.9023]

10 minutes ago, Eddie.9143 said:

You still don't know when theyre lying to you.

I know when to preach doom do not worry 😄. I did not even play a single ranked match and almost no unranked for this season  because I knew how it would go. Reading the patch notes, seing no spb nerfs and playing a few unranked games vs cata before the season and I was already out.

Edited February 12, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Downstate.4697]

14 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

You still don't know when theyre lying to you.

Anet has been known to patch things within a week after balance updates. Don’t be surprised to see a 90s elite skill