Living World.....Gone?

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I think fewer maps makes it easier to release them polished. 

[Astralporing.1957]

On 2/21/2023 at 1:43 PM, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I think fewer maps makes it easier to release them polished. 

In theory, yes - if we keep the overall effort spent on them the same. The announcement however suggests they will be splitting the resources towards more things, which means we can just end up with less maps but the same resource spent per map as before.

Notice also, that New Kaineng is not a cheap map design- and resourcewise. It's clear that a ton of effort and polishing went into it. It just went into all the wrong things. So, having the devs concentrate their resources on less maps is not necessarily going to make them better if it will be still the same design team doing it.

And overall, the problem with maps in old LS-es was not the number of it. It's the oneshot design they've had. Remember Sun Refuge? How big of a potential it started with... and how that potential could never be realized, because the nature of LS maps made it so it could be relevant only within the context of the LS chapter it was released with?

Notice, how they've already said that design approach was gone, and that new content would be different... only for them to release Grothmar, Bjora and Drizzle which, in their core design, were based on pretty much the same principle?

The problem i have with Anet reveals is that i have heard a lot of this (or similar) stuff before, and in the past it has always been just an excuse to no longer be bound with prior assumptions as to the amount and quality of content they should deliver, which would let them get away with reducing resources assigned to that content. And i fear this is exactly another such case - a suggested improvement of delivery design being just a camouflage for downsizing/effort reduction.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

47 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

In theory, yes - if we keep the overall effort spent on them the same. The announcement however suggests they will be splitting the resources towards more things, which means we can just end up with less maps but the same resource spent per map as before.

Notice also, that New Kaineng is not a cheap map design- and resourcewise. It's clear that a ton of effort and polishing went into it. It just went into all the wrong things. So, having the devs concentrate their resources on less maps is not necessarily going to make them better if it will be still the same design team doing it.

And overall, the problem with maps in old LS-es was not the number of it. It's the oneshot design they've had. Remember Sun Refuge? How big of a potential it started with... and how that potential could never be realized, because the nature of LS maps made it so it could be relevant only within the context of the LS chapter it was released with?

Notice, how they've already said that design approach was gone, and that new content would be different... only for them to release Grothmar, Bjora and Drizzle which, in their core design, were based on pretty much the same principle?

The problem i have with Anet reveals is that i have heard a lot of this (or similar) stuff before, and in the past it has always been just an excuse to no longer be bound with prior assumptions as to the amount and quality of content they should deliver, which would let them get away with reducing resources assigned to that content. And i fear this is exactly another such case - a suggested improvement of delivery design being just a camouflage for downsizing/effort reduction.

I said makes it easier, not that they will be better. I have no way to know that. None of this contradicts what I said. 

[Astralporing.1957]

25 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I said makes it easier, not that they will be better. I have no way to know that. None of this contradicts what I said. 

Of course it doesn't. I was just cautioning against expecting things based on what is potentially possible, instead of what is actually likely to happen.

[Gibson.4036]

On 2/20/2023 at 1:00 AM, Jukhy.2431 said:

The release on 28th is the continuation of EoD story and owners of the expansion will unlock it for free. They haven't yet told us when they'll release the first buyable "mini-expansion".

The thing is, we’ve kind of already bought the first mini expansion under the new model. Look at EOD. We’re getting all of one new zone afterward, released in two parts.

The new mini-expacs will only have two zones at launch, but EOD is closer to this new model than PoF and HoT that got a large amounts of content added after launch.

Compare HoT+LW3 and PoF+LW4+IBS with EOD+1 Rama zone and you’ll see we bought into the new model without knowing it.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Blazing Rathalos.1904]

2 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

The thing is, we’ve kind of already bought the first mini expansion under the new model. Look at EOD. We’re getting all of one new zone afterward, released in two parts.

The new mini-expacs will only have two zones at launch, but EOD is closer to this new model than PoF and HoT that got a large amounts of content added after launch.

Compare HoT+LW3 and PoF+LW4+IBS with EOD+1 Rama zone and you’ll see we bought into the new model without knowing it.

Note that this is only true for players who played from the release of PoF / HoT and actually got the associated Living World episodes for free. For all the players that started after (a proportion that will only grow over time) they did not get any content after the expansions, those are separate paid products.

[idpersona.3810]

11 minutes ago, Blazing Rathalos.1904 said:

Note that this is only true for players who played from the release of PoF / HoT and actually got the associated Living World episodes for free. For all the players that started after (a proportion that will only grow over time) they did not get any content after the expansions, those are separate paid products.

Agreed, though adding on that I believe the content was also free again during the Return to Living World stuffs. Not that it really changes your point.

[RoastedBloop.9817]

2 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

The thing is, we’ve kind of already bought the first mini expansion under the new model. Look at EOD. We’re getting all of one new zone afterward, released in two parts.

The new mini-expacs will only have two zones at launch, but EOD is closer to this new model than PoF and HoT that got a large amounts of content added after launch.

Compare HoT+LW3 and PoF+LW4+IBS with EOD+1 Rama zone and you’ll see we bought into the new model without knowing it.

 

As @Blazing Rathalos.1904 pointed out, and this should be reiterated again and again, LW is free for those that had the associated expansion and were present during the free log in window. Any who missed that free window, even if they had that expansion still have to pay for LW. 

 

For years, the majority of this community have always said LW model is an actual determinate to any new or returning players trying to get in to this game. And YET, there are actual members in this community, get this, are against this new model, when it does away with restrictive barriers that came with LW - the very thing this community are against. I don't think I've ever come across any other mmo community, where a small portion of that community tries to sabotage their own mmo this hard.       

[rylien.3824]

So in addition to all the elements removed to switch to "little-expansions" (LW low-coast paying) are more entitled to trailers...lmao !🤐

Edited February 24, 2023 by rylien.3824

[idpersona.3810]

12 minutes ago, rylien.3824 said:

So in addition to all the elements removed to switch to "little-expansions" (LW low-coast paying) are more entitled to trailers...lmao !🤐

There's something dropping next week and I don't think we've gotten almost any information on it, so probably not.

Edited February 24, 2023 by idpersona.3810

[Gibson.4036]

3 hours ago, Blazing Rathalos.1904 said:

Note that this is only true for players who played from the release of PoF / HoT and actually got the associated Living World episodes for free. For all the players that started after (a proportion that will only grow over time) they did not get any content after the expansions, those are separate paid products.

Absolutely. I don’t see anyone lamenting that they’re getting rid of the need to log in to avoid paying more for the later zones. This is a welcome change.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

If only End of Dragons imitated the new 'smaller expansion' model.  Then we would have had the first additional content 3 months after End of Dragon's release (and a release every subsequent quarter), and not 12 months later.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

8 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

The thing is, we’ve kind of already bought the first mini expansion under the new model. Look at EOD. We’re getting all of one new zone afterward, released in two parts.

The new mini-expacs will only have two zones at launch, but EOD is closer to this new model than PoF and HoT that got a large amounts of content added after launch.

Compare HoT+LW3 and PoF+LW4+IBS with EOD+1 Rama zone and you’ll see we bought into the new model without knowing it.

I don't think its the same at all.

 

LWS3, LWS4 and IBS all cost money if you're a new player, they aren't technically part of the expansion but still require it. On the new model you get the unlock just by owning the expansion instead, so you're actually getting more bang for your buck even if its less content released over time.

Edited February 24, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Gibson.4036]

45 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I don't think its the same at all.

 

LWS3, LWS4 and IBS all cost money if you're a new player, they aren't technically part of the expansion but still require it. On the new model you get the unlock just by owning the expansion instead, so you're actually getting more bang for your buck even if its less content released over time.

And EOD is following the new model. Which was my point.

SMH that so many people seem to think what I wrote is somehow advocating new players pay to unlock the updates like they had to with LW.

[Mell.4873]

On 2/14/2023 at 7:16 AM, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

Fine with me. I like content. I like expansions. I like Living World.

 

After Path of Fire, ArenaNet choose to go Living World only and forever. And came with the Icebrood Saga.

I thought this to, but an expansion was in the works, but their overloads would not green light it due to having a Chinese theme. Some of the groundwork had been laid hence why they announced and released it a year later.

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I thought this to, but an expansion was in the works, but their overloads would not green light it due to having a Chinese theme. Some of the groundwork had been laid hence why they announced and released it a year later.

Any quote on that? Because everything we've heard so far points to them abandoning expansion idea long before LS4 ended, and only returning to it back again sometimes after layoffs, during IBS.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

On 2/24/2023 at 9:37 PM, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

If only End of Dragons imitated the new 'smaller expansion' model.  Then we would have had the first additional content 3 months after End of Dragon's release (and a release every subsequent quarter), and not 12 months later.

EoD did imitate the smaller expansion mode in being Icebrood Saga tier content wise.

[Poormany.4507]

5 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

EoD did imitate the smaller expansion mode in being Icebrood Saga tier content wise.

How was EoD IBS tier? It felt much more like LWS4 tier to me - not quite PoF or HoT level in terms of masteries (PoF/HoT) and metas (HoT), but definitely tiers above IBS + Champions quality.

"I thought this to, but an expansion was in the works, but their overloads would not green light it due to having a Chinese theme. Some of the groundwork had been laid hence why they announced and released it a year later."

I never heard of this either and it definitely did not seem like the case. Maybe you're thinking about the abandoned Divinity's Reach district that was removed because of its Chinese theme? The mainstream unofficial speculation is that NCSOFT forced Anet to make EoD in the middle of the Icebrood Saga because the game wasn't doing as well as it had hoped financially (especially during/right after Covid) and needed an expac to quickly boost sales and get players back into the game.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Poormany.4507

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

5 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

How was EoD IBS tier? It felt much more like LWS4 tier to me - not quite PoF or HoT level in terms of masteries (PoF/HoT) and metas (HoT), but definitely tiers above IBS + Champions quality.

"I thought this to, but an expansion was in the works, but their overloads would not green light it due to having a Chinese theme. Some of the groundwork had been laid hence why they announced and released it a year later."

I never heard of this either and it definitely did not seem like the case. Maybe you're thinking about the abandoned Divinity's Reach district that was removed because of its Chinese theme? The mainstream unofficial speculation is that NCSOFT forced Anet to make EoD in the middle of the Icebrood Saga because the game wasn't doing as well as it had hoped financially (especially during/right after Covid) and needed an expac to quickly boost sales and get players back into the game.

• Seitung Province was more looks than content, Arah has more citizens than Kaineng City. The only map they improved is Echovald, which is awesome. Dragon's End doesn't have the same Jade Sea atmosphere from Factions.
• Decent story, but not much reason to go back to any EoD maps a month after release, one meta boss is just a recycled Raid boss. 
• Forgettable masteries(fishing, skiffs, turtle) as well. 

EoD rode on the love for Factions people have, I was excited for EoD too, because Factions. Same reason I was excited for - and got disappointed by - Icebrood Saga. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

They need to address the mobility creep they introduced with mounts. 

I personally feel it's a big reason people bag on EoD so much, is because the entire jade bot / skiff masteries are pretty much skippable as you can just fly everywhere.  Even if you don't have a Skyscale, the Skimmer replaces the skiff anyway (provided you don't want to fish).

There's going to be problems no matter what now, because they either keep releasing expansions and get complaints, or release new single maps like they did with LWS4 and still get complaints.  

Cadence doesn't really bother me personally, as I'll just continue playing WvW and other games while awaiting new PvE stuff.  It doesn't seem like its been a year since anything new--guess I was just busy completing legendaries and didn't really notice. 

For newer players I guess it can be jarring, especially since the norm now is 'season pass' where people expect a ton of new stuff (mostly fluff) every 2-3 months.  

 

[Gibson.4036]

12 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

 

It could be mini exp, update, update, update mini exp or minie exp update update mini exp.

They have not really specified that yet.

Putting together what they've posted so far with Grouch's (albeit somewhat cryptic) responses to Teapot's stream, my current expectation is the latter.

Mini expac/1st half of additional zone/second half of additional zone/holiday festival time. Rinse and repeat next year.

[mythical.6315]

I’m glad that I was wrong and they appear to have held off on grindy achievements like in LS5. 

I’m not a fan of more of the open world becoming part of the story and especially when the dialogue can be easily missed when waypointing. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by mythical.6315

[Zeivu.3615]

On 2/20/2023 at 6:30 AM, Yasai.3549 said:

I don't want to "settle" for anything less than a basic expansion introducing enough content worth 2 maps of a normal expansion. 

I'm already extremely pissed that IBS was a really cheap "Charr + Norn" theme expansion.

 

I wouldn't say cheap. I would say, not even half-baked.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 2/26/2023 at 12:20 PM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

EoD did imitate the smaller expansion mode in being Icebrood Saga tier content wise.

If you set up your expectations for smaller mini-expansions based on EoD, i'm afraid you will still end up disappointed. And not in a good way.

[rylien.3824]

Well, having done this "chapter" and not LW6, as short and boring as rain, there is nothing going on, visually the map is nice, but not especially amazing either(For depths, I was still more marked by the Tangled Depths with the Chaks...), the exploration is blocked by the meta-event because we depend on people to do it, but it is also uninteresting, there is literally no interest, no lore, and a very linear exploration as with the raid maps. When the map will be deserted, we will all be stuck at 1/5 (+ similar second part), destroying any possible solo exploration, but since there are at best only 5 points of interest to explore, very uninteresting...

I finished everything and this map in about 1 hour, waiting 1 year for this is clearly taking us for idiots, so to think that we'll pay for the same thing (with at least 2 masteries, and 1 map more), it's abused, the scenario won't hold either... we'll have adventures as secondary and less developed than a raid, for the price of 27$ instead of 30$. It's clearly uninteresting, this thing brings nothing, we might as well deliver 1 more map in a mini-extension at this rate, rather than making a "fake-container" that is only there to make it look like there are regularly. The dialogues, the scenario itself as said above are also uninteresting, it's empty chatter, we learn strictly nothing, we have to check the history of the energy problems of the technology by a vulgar line of force..., in check mode, which was clearly logical from the beginning, and on top of that it was said that there was one just under the Temple of Harvest, it's ridiculous...

I hated this chapter, and I won't go back there, this area will be emptied quickly, and those who want to try something will be blocked because there will be no one there anymore....
If this is what mini-extensions are all about, I won't be doing it, because it's clearly a scam. 😠

Edited March 1, 2023 by rylien.3824