WvW Objective Reward Scaling

[Xenesis.6389]

Ok well ktrain stopped. So I went to calculate some values..

I had 59 crafting material coffers, opened them and was around 6.5 gold in buy order value.

Then all the unidentified greens around 2 gold, I don't remember if I had cleared my blue and rare unidentified before playing, but what I had in my bag but was around 2gold in value.

Then regular 87 loot bags were around 1.76 gold in value.

Had 3 exotics(one had grove and one had divinity runes!) and 1 ascended chest drop as well.

12 Grandmaster mark shards.

This was about 3 hours of play I guess and not fully playing, and certainly not full ktrain mode, and I was in here reporting too in between.

But the 59 crafting bags alone worth 6.5 gold in a few hours I think is a real boost.

Unfortunately will probably be nerfed... 😢

[Muddfish.1206]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1532040903157637120/TyknF3zH_normal.jpg

 

Guild Wars

 

We have temporarily disabled Objective Scaling Rewards in WvW while we address an issue. We will update you once this is resolved

[evlover.6270]

I get it, they wanted to make WvW more worthwhile, but this wasn't the way to do it, especially when the failed attacks will be activated in the future. Crafting materials already took a huge hit with the jade bots, now this, it's just going to ruin the material prices overall, decreasing the value in the long run not only for WvW but also for new players just getting random mats from map exploration that will be worth even less than they already are. Would've been better off dropping coin bags instead of craft material bags if they would be dropped in such an abundance so that WvW players would have more money to buy the mats they needed, raising the price of mats gathered from newer players in PvE as well. 

And on the other hand: getting so many grandmaster mark shards are completely useless when you've already got legendary armor and there is not a single way to straight up convert them to gold. Maybe fix things like this and add a vendor option to exchange them for silver/gold/skirmish tickets or w/e instead of handing out ascended things that are useless for certain parts of the community? (same with ascended armor/weapon boxes from wvw/fracts/world bosses btw, aside from converting them to research notes and making gold from that indirectly which is a very roundabout way that plenty of people don't know)

Also I really don't think there should be rewards for failed defenses or failed attacks cause as I mentioned earlier: it's just a matter of time before this will be abused by not capping an objective on purpose as everyone will get the rewards as long as the fight goes on, so there is no benefit in ending the fight. Can just keep fighting over a t3 SM for all eternity once the failed attack reward get activated. Adding rewards for succeeded defenses/attacks only would have been plenty already and would have made the objective for the attackers and defenders opposites of one another: the attackers would want to cap it asap and move on to the next, while the defenders would try to defend everything as long as possible. Would've been much healthier for the game mode instead of creating a similar interest: fight and whether you win or lose, you all get extra crafting bags, so please attack eachother and engage in combat but don't wipe eachother out so you can keep on fighting as long as you can without ending the fight.. 

[Xenesis.6389]

11 minutes ago, Muddfish.1206 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1532040903157637120/TyknF3zH_normal.jpg

 

Guild Wars

 

We have temporarily disabled Objective Scaling Rewards in WvW while we address an issue. We will update you once this is resolved

 

 

 

 

I don't know what this gibberish under the tweet... but totally saw that coming, let's see how much they nerf it by...

Edited February 14, 2023 by Xenesis.6389

[Xenesis.6389]

15 minutes ago, evlover.6270 said:

And on the other hand: getting so many grandmaster mark shards are completely useless when you've already got legendary armor and there is not a single way to straight up convert them to gold.

The marks are also used for getting ascended weapons. They are freebies as in pve you have to craft them. I don't really mind them being common because frankly having 3 time gated currencies(tickets, memories, marks) for ascended weapons is ridiculous. The only problem is it's yet another stack to hold in your bags... 🙄 Also people need to stop looking at their excess currency that needs to be constantly spent on something. They are there for a purpose, if you finish that purpose well then farm something else, every currency in the game is like this. Gold is the only infinitely useful currency for everything

 

15 minutes ago, evlover.6270 said:

Also I really don't think there should be rewards for failed defenses or failed attacks cause as I mentioned earlier: it's just a matter of time before this will be abused by not capping an objective on purpose as everyone will get the rewards as long as the fight goes on, so there is no benefit in ending the fight. Can just keep fighting over a t3 SM for all eternity once the failed attack reward get activated.

The bigger problem is successful defenses and failed attacks(which isn't in the game yet and frankly I don't want it in), these two would lead to eternal farming from both sides over an objective. Failed defense only comes from losing the objective, so this along with successful capture are not farmable every 3 mins as it only happens once over the objective. 

 

Now that there's more rewards for defending, and weeklies to push attacking, we may be getting into a better balance between the two. Maybe if they made the weeklies be repeatable so we have people constantly looking to attack and not finish their set and then just defend the rest of the time for those repeated rewards.

 

But we'll have to see how hard they nerf the events now....

[Sviel.7493]

I think it's fine to reward a failed attack as long as significant progress was made.  If you break a wall/gate, for instance, that's worth rewarding.  Getting wiped before that should be less rewarding.

[rune.9572]

RIP wvw being actually rewarding Feb 14 2023 - Feb 14 2023

You will be missed

Edited February 14, 2023 by rune.9572

[idpersona.3810]

8 minutes ago, rune.9572 said:

RIP wvw being actually rewarding Feb 14 2023 - Feb 14 2023

You will be missed

It didn't even make it to the end of the day. 😕
I was looking forward to getting home and jumping into WvW for an hour or 2 after work.

[idpersona.3810]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Ok well ktrain stopped. So I went to calculate some values..

I had 59 crafting material coffers, opened them and was around 6.5 gold in buy order value.

Then all the unidentified greens around 2 gold, I don't remember if I had cleared my blue and rare unidentified before playing, but what I had in my bag but was around 2gold in value.

Then regular 87 loot bags were around 1.76 gold in value.

Had 3 exotics(one had grove and one had divinity runes!) and 1 ascended chest drop as well.

12 Grandmaster mark shards.

This was about 3 hours of play I guess and not fully playing, and certainly not full ktrain mode, and I was in here reporting too in between.

But the 59 crafting bags alone worth 6.5 gold in a few hours I think is a real boost.

Unfortunately will probably be nerfed... 😢

So off the top of my head, you made about 10.25g plus 3 exotics and an ascended. Not sure how to value the ascended in all of this since it was likely just a super rare drop.
I don't know the specific exotics, lets say 40s each. So you made a little over 11g in 3 hours. Adding reward track on the high end of 15g or so for the time (boosted for the sake of this). you would have made about 26g in the 3 hours. Let me know if there were any other significant loots in missing out on.

 

That's a whopping 8.66g/hour. That shouldn't warrant serious nerfs, but since we're talking about WvW I think we all pretty much expect it.
As I said earlier in the day, I'm curious to see what this looks like after work when I get to jump in. Maybe the scaling rewards will even be reinstated by then. Here's hoping.

[evlover.6270]

43 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

The marks are also used for getting ascended weapons. They are freebies as in pve you have to craft them. I don't really mind them being common because frankly having 3 time gated currencies(tickets, memories, marks) for ascended weapons is ridiculous. The only problem is it's yet another stack to hold in your bags... 🙄 Also people need to stop looking at their excess currency that needs to be constantly spent on something. They are there for a purpose, if you finish that purpose well then farm something else, every currency in the game is like this. Gold is the only infinitely useful currency for everything

 

The bigger problem is successful defenses and failed attacks(which isn't in the game yet and frankly I don't want it in), these two would lead to eternal farming from both sides over an objective. Failed defense only comes from losing the objective, so this along with successful capture are not farmable every 3 mins as it only happens once over the objective. 

 

Now that there's more rewards for defending, and weeklies to push attacking, we may be getting into a better balance between the two. Maybe if they made the weeklies be repeatable so we have people constantly looking to attack and not finish their set and then just defend the rest of the time for those repeated rewards.

 

But we'll have to see how hard they nerf the events now....

 

Still, as a vet who has 3 legendary armor sets and at least one legendary of every weapon, those marks are completely useless to me, whether it's full ones or shards from pvp or wvw. A vendor to at least give me something for it would be nice instead of stacking them in my bank without any purpose. Like with living world currencies, at least you can turn them into magic and buy material bags with them. Being able to exchange them for memories of battle for example or glory in the case of pvp would at least give me something out of it instead of just taking up space or deleting them.

I strongly wouldn't combine rewards for succeeded attack and failed defenses as you suggest cause then no one will bother defending and it will just lead to even more K-training as the purpose is the same for all sides: just cap as many things as fast as you can. They need to reward conflicting interests: successfully defending and successfully attacking so that one side tries to cap and the other tries to hold on. Wouldn't matter that defending gives out a bit better rewards, the attacking side gets more WxP for capping the tower/keep. While that's not gold, it's still a reward that the defenders don't get.

The weeklies don't really do that much cause they come naturally anyways if you run in a zerg for a night. The only thing a zerg doesn't do is cap 5 ruins which you can just solo in a few mins. It's just some extra freebies, but it really doesn't push anything gameplay wise.

Edited February 15, 2023 by evlover.6270
spacing

[Nomad.4301]

24 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

That's a whopping 8.66g/hour. That shouldn't warrant serious nerfs, but since we're talking about WvW I think we all pretty much expect it.
As I said earlier in the day, I'm curious to see what this looks like after work when I get to jump in. Maybe the scaling rewards will even be reinstated by then. Here's hoping.

I'd say the problem lied more in just how many T6 mats those crafting coffers contained, the amount you could get in just an hour of attacking/defending T3s was enough that over time it would see the market on T6 end up where the T5 market currently is (aka worthless) which would also ironically reduce the value of heavy loot bags we've been getting since day 1.

I expect to see the drop rate on the Crafting Material Coffers reduced significantly, not sure if anything else warranted nerfs except for maybe the amount of liquid Wxp you could get.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Nomad.4301

[Eudaimonia.8695]

One guy on my server got 60 lvls in like 3 hours of staying inside SM, and that without a WXP event. That is absurd. May as well give everyone God of WvW for free.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Eudaimonia.8695

[Xenesis.6389]

12 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

So off the top of my head, you made about 10.25g plus 3 exotics and an ascended. Not sure how to value the ascended in all of this since it was likely just a super rare drop.
I don't know the specific exotics, lets say 40s each. So you made a little over 11g in 3 hours. Adding reward track on the high end of 15g or so for the time (boosted for the sake of this). you would have made about 26g in the 3 hours. Let me know if there were any other significant loots in missing out on.

 

That's a whopping 8.66g/hour. That shouldn't warrant serious nerfs, but since we're talking about WvW I think we all pretty much expect it.
As I said earlier in the day, I'm curious to see what this looks like after work when I get to jump in. Maybe the scaling rewards will even be reinstated by then. Here's hoping.

Nothing else of significance dropped, just the usual harvest nodes and lord bags as extras. The events dropped between 4-8 coffers, which I fully expect they will nerf by half or more. The exotic runes were around 47s and 88s, random lucky drops tbh. Of course this doesn't include the skirmish track rewards(wood and bronze tier) which could have had ascended materials drop for more gold value, I didn't check, but I wouldn't value the regular reward track at 15g though, that seems real high.

If anything I would just look at the crafting coffers as the addition to what a person would regularly get, and with mines being 6.5 gold over let's say two solid hours of play it would put that at 3.25 gold per hour. Fully expect that to get nerfed in half or more though...

[Xenesis.6389]

12 minutes ago, Nomad.4301 said:

I'd say the problem lied more in just how many T6 mats those crafting coffers contained, the amount you could get in just an hour of attacking/defending T3s was enough that over time it would see the market on T6 end up where the T5 market currently is (aka worthless) which would also ironically reduce the value of heavy loot bags we've been getting since day 1.

I expect to see the drop rate on the Crafting Material Coffers reduced significantly, not sure if anything else warranted nerfs except for maybe the amount of liquid Wxp you could get.

This is what my 59 bags turned into..

https://i.imgur.com/ZMHolHr.jpg

They are gonna nerf the bag rate hard for sure, I'm surprised they didn't start it out at 0-1 random bag per event, as per their usual wvw stinginess.

[Johje Holan.4607]

Some people in here were doing some pretty hard nitpicking earlier.  They finally give us rewards for defending and we're complaining about them stating there is a testing period.  That's good!  It was probably testing to make sure the rewards didn't get out of whack and destroy the economy.  And that seems like what it was because they disabled it because something was out of whack.

I have criticized Anet plenty but this endeavor is one of the most positive ones I've seen since the culling fix.  I say give them time to fine tune it and make it right.

[allshallperish.4620]

back to pve to farm gold, wvw rewards turned off

[Kranlor Greyhelm.8417]

I literally finished my days WvW at 5 minutes past 5pm. I kitten near got the last tick I wanted before we were kicked out, but just missed it. So I quickly hopped back on to get that last tick and call it a day. I knew they'd implemented the new rewards system, but I figured I'd check it out the next day.

 

Looked later in the evening and there was a huge queue for EBG, which was certainly odd. But I didn't think much of it.

 

Now it turns out I missed the chance to generate a bit of gold and a LOT of WXP. Bugger. Hopefully this will still be worth doing when they reinstate it; I'd love the chance to generate some extra Grandmaster Marks, since I've still got one weight class of legendary armour to do.

 

It does at least show that they are recognising the need to buff rewards in the WvW space. Even if they misjudged just how much they were buffing it by.

[Cyninja.2954]

From another thread on the new objective scaling by me:

 

The entire concept of rewarding defense AND attack before an objective has flipped is pretty much doomed to fail. The exact balancing needed to make this work exceeds the capabilities of the studio. Not to mention that this is an issue which is highly affected by population imbalances.

Balancing and designing reward systems around large population disparities leads to issues when player populations are closer together, while balancing around similar player number leads to issues when player numbers per side diverge.

Having a player gain 10k WxP every 3 minutes because they are defending a T3 stonemist castle while great luls is inherently game breaking. The same goes for partial rewards for attacking.

Let's assume rewards continue as they were implemented last night:

Defenders get rewards for "defending" which is based around the enemy not flipping the objective right now. Attackers gain participation around attacking without flipping the objective. Just place 2 blobs on opposite sides and keep participation up, done. The new form of K-train is established.

As to the rewards being re-enabled. They removed the bonus rewards but kept the "new" participation system in place. Good luck getting gold on a support class even while spamming your buttons while giving boons, heals, conditions and cleanses (cele FB for example). The current result is worse rewards in the mode compared to before.

Now add in the entire game breaking event system, the entire amount of issues related to events can be found in reddit posts mentioning them. Suffice to say we got pve bosses de-spawning now, in fight resurrection possibilities, missing event displays in the top right, etc. and this needs to get looked at asap.

Seems to me some legacy code was altered for the first time in years and we are seeing the results. Which btw is a great example of why alliances and restructuring is such a mammoth project and requires double and triple checks before implementation.

 

TL;DR:

The developers need to decide how rewards in this mode are supposed to work. Pity rewards for being there don't mesh well with competitive modes (look at Spvp and the bots there or even the afk spawn camp flippers here). Performance rewards don't mesh well with PvE players who are into easy content. The healthiest way for a competitive mode to produce rewards is to actually reward "winning", which in turn requires proper population balance for example.

Maybe the developers approach is to over-saturate the rewards, especially WxP, so they can get any player who is here only for their legendary armor be done asap. I mean at 60 WvW levels per hour you bring 10k rank down to 166 hours. That can be grinded in 2-3 weeks by some player really pushing it (8 hours per day basically).

Edited February 15, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Zyreva.1078]

5 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The healthiest way for a competitive mode to produce rewards is to actually reward "winning", which in turn requires proper population balance for example.

While i agree with your post overall, rewarding winning only works for aspects of WvW (eg winning fights, sieges, maybe skirmishes), but it does not and will never work for matches - unless the entire game mode gets completely reworked and basically turned into spvp 2.0 while losing all of the freedom that is a big part of what makes the game mode appealing.

Even if world populations would be perfectly balanced on paper, it is impossible to create actual balance and performance based rewards, due to how volatile player activity is and how low the impact of an individual player is when it comes to the outcome of a match. It's a reason we no longer have WvW tournaments - aside from bandwagoning and stacking the best way to win wasn't to play better as it would be in a real competitive scenario - it was to play more, which eventually leads to burn out. And again - that's not something that can be prevented by balancing populations, because they can only balance arround average numbers, not population snap-shots, nor can they "force" players to only play for a certain amount of time.

And even rewarding winning fights/sieges still heavily favours larger numbers over anything else, because rewards are multiplied instead of split between players. And as long that's the case (and unfortunately it is very unlikely to change) it is not possible to create an actually "healthy" reward system that rewards players based on effort and performance.

Edited February 15, 2023 by UmbraNoctis.1907