Spectre just feels ... boring. Maybe it needs to be reimagined?

[itspomf.9523]

From an open-world PvE standpoint, I'm not sure why this elite specialization exists.  Half the effects of my skills are largely useless, since other classes do them better (and without having to explicitly target allies), wells are just awkward to deal with (and honestly feel bolted on to create artificial synergy with Shadow Arts, even before the buffs), and please don't get me started on how completely awkward scepter and all its skills are, combos included.  And with the shroud changes, it's just weird and awkward to play.

I wanted to like this one, I really did, but almost a year later and it still feels like an unfinished placeholder.  Animations, traits, even the skill effects themselves seem unfinished.  And the shroud is just strange, like a discount version of Harbinger.

I like the concept behind a condition-oriented thief (not that scepter's particularly good at that, mind) and one that can support its allies.  I think there is a genuinely good concept behind this elite specialization, but I feel it honestly needs to be reimagined into something more coherent.  Unfortunately, I don't know what that is, beyond "get rid of the awkward ally targeting."

[Yasai.3549]

7 minutes ago, itspomf.9523 said:

Unfortunately, I don't know what that is, beyond "get rid of the awkward ally targeting."

If all your complaint is regarding awkward ally targeting, the solution isn't to get rid of it, but to improve ally targeting no? 
The issue here is that they can't randomly buff the ally supportive nature of Specter cos of its dumb Ini system which revolves around no weapon cooldowns. 

[Doggie.3184]

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

If all your complaint is regarding awkward ally targeting, the solution isn't to get rid of it, but to improve ally targeting no? 
The issue here is that they can't randomly buff the ally supportive nature of Specter cos of its dumb Ini system which revolves around no weapon cooldowns. 

They did improve ally targeting. ON DRUID AND ELEMENTALIST. 🤦‍♂️And auto-attacks don't need ini. Why wasnt OUUUUR auto-attack designed to hit 5 targets? ~both Friend and Foe targeting should AoE. 

Everytime we make a wish it's granted by giving it to a different class instead. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Yasai.3549]

35 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

They did improve ally targeting. ON DRUID AND ELEMENTALIST. 🤦‍♂️And auto-attacks don't need ini. Why wasnt OUUUUR auto-attack designed to hit 5 targets? ~both Friend and Foe. 

Everytime we make a wish it's granted by giving it to a different class instead. 

I honestly find it kinda weird how the AA isn't a splash, but instead a single target. If it splashed in a small 240 AoE but gave lesser overall Barrier, it would actually be pretty reliable as a group sustain tool. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

I think the 1 target thing is a flavor decision made by Anet…which of course runs contradictory to Wells being the ultimate “multi target” kind of skill.

 

I agree though. Specter healing a single target was always a bad design choice in this game where it’s impossible to target anything due to lack of UI…or rather more importance on seeing the screen rather than the Ui which leads to very slow mouse movements to select targets in a stew of other targets. 
 

Healing thief is an interesting take on healing but it just needs better design in some areas. They should make siphon a somewhat permanent link to other players so players can build links over time…and then have these single target skills like sap or whatever be able to cast effects to these linked players.
 

High single target healing…then as more links are made it becomes low group target healing…and it shouldn’t have a target cap either so you can build 20 or so links (for small but wide blanket healing) which would make them fit for WvW too.

[Elzo Yell.1784]

I would understand OP points from a raid/strikes/frac PoV, but from OW PoV ? I do agree on the clunky aspects, that targetting is a problem. But it's not because you're playing an elite spec that you need to play with the weapon and all the skills from this elite spec. It's the whole system of GW2. An OW build is so free that you can't really complain about an elite spec, unless all traits are really useless or focused on the unlocked weapon/skills. If you compare it to Daredevil, there are traits where you need to use a staff or skills unlocked with this spec. Specter and most of elite specs use this system, but Specter traits give you something in return even if you're not using wells/scepter.

From a Raid/Strikes PoV, yes, Specter is really boring in term of rotation, it's really easy. But that's a good thing sometimes to play a class that is simple to play, especially for people who played Elem/Engineer for a very long time.

 

Honestly, I though when they announced this elite spec, that Thief would be able to support allies while attacking enemies. And I don't know why they didn't do that, with lower values if your attack hit an ally while you're targetting an enemy, and the same if you target an ally first. Maybe it's too hard to code, but if they're able of doing that, I don't know why they didn't rework Specter in that way.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Elzo Yell.1784

[Infusion.7149]

It is supposed to be a single target healer with AoE alac/boons. You're complaining about it in openworld?

The number one fix that Arenanet can do (other than upping healing coefficients) is to implement better ally locking. Otherwise once you party with more than one person the ally targeting goes all over the place unless you micromanage.

[Zacchary.6183]

15 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It is supposed to be a single target healer with AoE alac/boons. You're complaining about it in openworld?

The number one fix that Arenanet can do (other than upping healing coefficients) is to implement better ally locking. Otherwise once you party with more than one person the ally targeting goes all over the place unless you micromanage.

Single target support is bad unless it provides excellent support for that one target. In its current iteration, it doesn't provide nearly the amount of boon coverage/healing/barrier that it should. And support often cuts into DPS.

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Single target support is bad unless it provides excellent support for that one target. In its current iteration, it doesn't provide nearly the amount of boon coverage/healing/barrier that it should. And support often cuts into DPS.

You can provide AoE alac, might, swiftness, and fury. Well of bounty had stability added as well but the problem is timing on stability. That is akin to alac ren which was meta for the longest time before mechanist. It is nearly on par with DPS alac rifle mech save for the AoE protection mech provides ; that is essentially what is missing compared to power alac ren too. In the post you quoted I clearly stated the healing power payoff isn't there.

Support cuts into DPS on every spec, even alac ren, mech, tempest, druid, etc. Specter is an anomaly in that a ritualist gear specter with condi DPS build (no wells) can do nearly full DPS. Most of the heal support is built into consume shadows.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You can provide AoE alac, might, swiftness, and fury. Well of bounty had stability added as well but the problem is timing on stability. That is akin to alac ren which was meta for the longest time before mechanist. It is nearly on par with DPS alac rifle mech save for the AoE protection mech provides ; that is essentially what is missing compared to power alac ren too. In the post you quoted I clearly stated the healing power payoff isn't there.

Support cuts into DPS on every spec, even alac ren, mech, tempest, druid, etc. Specter is an anomaly in that a ritualist gear specter with condi DPS build (no wells) can do nearly full DPS. Most of the heal support is built into consume shadows.

Shroud sucks in competative, there is still the issue with sc/d #3 hitting allies you DONT want to hit, you have to blow all wells off cd to maintain alacrity further screwing up the idea that wells are NOT utility but part of required alac rotation making well cleanses still useless id you blow it for alacrity sake. Its a half arsed attempt to give thieves a false sense of security and it need to entirely go back to the drawing board

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Shroud sucks in competative, there is still the issue with sc/d #3 hitting allies you DONT want to hit, you have to blow all wells off cd to maintain alacrity further screwing up the idea that wells are NOT utility but part of required alac rotation making well cleanses still useless id you blow it for alacrity sake. Its a half arsed attempt to give thieves a false sense of security and it need to entirely go back to the drawing board

It sucks in PvP because there was a timeframe where it was strong and Arenanet nerfed it. It will never take off in WvW, single target support is nearly impossible to manage with so many allies in an area even if the stream showing off specter stated they wanted specters to support the commander. That is doubly so due to lack of ally target lock.

[cyberzombie.7348]

Imho, the lack of cohesion is due to that they're trying to jam necro/monk archetypes onto a rouge/assassin. Which typically contrast with each other in terms of roles. 

p.s., I've mentioned this for years. Thief's core support/healing abilities should've been buffed first, before creating a whole e-spec around it.

Edited February 15, 2023 by cyberzombie.7348

[nopoet.2960]

You know what they need to do is modify the scepter skills so they hit your target and your target's target.  For example if you are attacking an enemy, you also buff the ally it's attacking.  If you are targeting an ally, you also debuff, the foe it's attacking. 

That and give Well of Bounty Stealth.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

29 minutes ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Imho, the lack of cohesion is due to that they're trying to jam necro/monk archetypes onto a rouge/assassin. Which typically contrast with each other in terms of roles. 

p.s., I've mentioned this for years. Thief's core support/healing abilities should've been buffed first, before creating a whole e-spec around it.

starting with acrobatics and unused traits...this SoP trait is a friggin joke xD why take that trait when 1 signet Signet of Infiltration does what it does passively xD

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

5 minutes ago, nopoet.2960 said:

You know what they need to do is modify the scepter skills so they hit your target and your target's target.  For example if you are attacking an enemy, you also buff the ally it's attacking.  If you are targeting an ally, you also debuff, the foe it's attacking. 

That and give Well of Bounty Stealth.

herein lies the issue with stealth in a group setting...if you cast group stealth on thieves attacking, it screws up their rotation...if there was an option that allowed stealth/whatever to NOT break current queue it wouldnt be an issue.

[nopoet.2960]

1 minute ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

herein lies the issue with stealth in a group setting...if you cast group stealth on thieves attacking, it screws up their rotation...if there was an option that allowed stealth/whatever to NOT break current queue it wouldnt be an issue.

I don't want to derail the thread but I'm only talking about a .5 second stealth with the sole purpose of triggering Panaku's Ambition and the SA traits.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 minute ago, nopoet.2960 said:

I don't want to derail the thread but I'm only talking about a .5 second stealth with the sole purpose of triggering Panaku's Ambition and the SA traits.

even then, itll stop their rotation queues. they have to manu8ally remash their rotations. try screwing with it if you can and youll see what i mean...again like you, not to derail

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I think making the projectile bounce between allies with each bounce giving less barrier than the last could be a good compromise. 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

even then, itll stop their rotation queues. they have to manu8ally remash their rotations. try screwing with it if you can and youll see what i mean...again like you, not to derail

That is pretty typically trolly tbh. Thief finally gets the ability to give protection to allies in a pinch, but it'll mess up their rotations which would potentially deny a heal. Thief support ftw xD

[SoftPup.3048]

Monkey's paw wish: thieves can heal but it turns off their allies auto attacks (and completely dumpsters Deadeye's rotations)

[kash.9213]

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It sucks in PvP because there was a timeframe where it was strong and Arenanet nerfed it. It will never take off in WvW, single target support is nearly impossible to manage with so many allies in an area even if the stream showing off specter stated they wanted specters to support the commander. That is doubly so due to lack of ally target lock.

I can find targets with Left click in WvW blobs and it's a little tricky in Action Camera mode but it's instinctive once you figure it out. There really should be an ally target lock, like a friendly Mark that can be hot keyed to set and return to while active. While it's doable, I agree it's still not intuitive enough. Especially with the enemy to friendly option on the new Shadow Sap being a little wild to maintain group Might and tether Protection, that's some pressure since both are important but requires going back and forth between specific allies and enemy targets. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

19 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

I can find targets with Left click in WvW blobs and it's a little tricky in Action Camera mode but it's instinctive once you figure it out. There really should be an ally target lock, like a friendly Mark that can be hot keyed to set and return to while active. While it's doable, I agree it's still not intuitive enough. Especially with the enemy to friendly option on the new Shadow Sap being a little wild to maintain group Might and tether Protection, that's some pressure since both are important but requires going back and forth between specific allies and enemy targets. 

Much respect for action cam but in a truly good fight in organized comps action camera is mostly a niche and onky really good in pve OW. Without tabbing it can screw you up, your cat/dog or terrestrial goldfish can bump your aim and its over. Id love to, thougg, see some roamimg compilation videos of you uaing AC in wvw/spvp. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I think the problem isn't that allied targeting exists, its that allied targeting mostly isn't area of effect. I think you still need to be able to heal and support your entire party when using ally targeting, and I've noticed that this works really well on Elementalist in staff's water attunement which has ally-target AoE healing.

 

There's also several other issues:

- Rot Wallow Venom only affecting a single ally usually, lowering party damage and..

- You need to target enemies with Siphon in order to give your party boons. You're also forced to chose between giving boons or reviving downed allies, as both use the same skill.

 

This creates a conflicting situation in which its almost never advantageous to use allied targeting on Spectre, because you're not only doing less damage but often less support as well. Its the same kind of tradeoff they introduced with HealAlacrity Tempest having to give up their aura-based healing to give Alacrity, and no class with such vital tradeoffs is fun to play especially when its for basically no reason.

 

I know they're afraid of every class becoming the next LF HB, but we still have to try and improve things.

Edited February 16, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

1 minute ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I think the problem isn't that allied targeting exists, its that allied targeting mostly isn't area of effect. I think you still need to be able to heal and support your entire party when using ally targeting, and I've noticed that this works really well on Elementalist in staff's water attunement which has ally-target AoE healing.

 

There's also several other issues:

- Rot Wallow Venom only affecting a single ally and,

- You need to target enemies with Siphon in order to give your party boons.

 

This creates a conflicting situation in which its almost never advantageous to use allied targeting on Spectre, because you're not only doing less damage but often less support as well. Its the same kind of tradeoff they introduced with HealAlacrity Tempest having to give up their aura-based healing to give Alacrity, and no class with such vital tradeoffs is fun to play especially when its for basically no reason.

 

I know they're afraid of every class becoming the next LF HB, but we still have to improve things.

But RW isnt limited to 1 ally per applial. Take for example a condi specter with S/X and the port heals to spread barrier around + sanctuary runes, you break and gain barrier each time you port, thus spreading high damaging rw venom. The downside is sanctuary runes arent condibased. We got to [! stacks] of rw venom on mai trin strike once just screwing around and testing with this

[kash.9213]

14 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Much respect for action cam but in a truly good fight in organized comps action camera is mostly a niche and onky really good in pve OW. Without tabbing it can screw you up, your cat/dog or terrestrial goldfish can bump your aim and its over. Id love to, thougg, see some roamimg compilation videos of you uaing AC in wvw/spvp. 

You should really get used to toggling between both a lot.