Spectre just feels ... boring. Maybe it needs to be reimagined?

[Zacchary.6183]

14 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I know they're afraid of every class becoming the next LF HB,

What's wrong with balance?

[SoftPup.3048]

On 2/14/2023 at 1:50 PM, Yasai.3549 said:

If all your complaint is regarding awkward ally targeting, the solution isn't to get rid of it, but to improve ally targeting no? 
The issue here is that they can't randomly buff the ally supportive nature of Specter cos of its dumb Ini system which revolves around no weapon cooldowns. 

The game's current UI basically doesnt really support this playstyle well and I'd imagine it's easier to just design specter around AoE support like every other profession rather than redesigning the UI. I do agree initiative makes balancing pretty difficult.

[Infinity.2876]

Imo specter is fairly close to being a good support.

 

Just needs a few tweaks.

here are some ideas:

scepter aa should have damaging component around ally target.

scepter 2 should have a boomerang style animation that effects allies and enemies it moves through.

twilight combo should be effect on move through.^

measured shot is fine as is.

second opinion trait should give increased healing power toward tethered ally additionally.

amplified siphoning should grant might periodically to tethered ally instead of increased shadow force when hitting a foe. (selfish shroud gen is already better with larcenous torment)

Wells should have increased effectiveness towards tethered ally (ally you tether will stayed tethered to proc traits but doesn't grant barrier while not in shroud):

well of gloom: improved cast time when tethered.

well of bounty: improved boon duration for tether

well of silence: rezzes tethered ally

shadowfall: grants tethered ally life steal, swiftness and regen.

Edited February 16 by Infinity.2876

[nopoet.2960]

On 2/16/2023 at 6:01 PM, Infinity.2876 said:

shadowfall: grants tethered ally life steal, swiftness and regen.

Can I just say that shadowfall is a bizarre elite for someone who mained a thief since the beginning.  They want me to jump in the middle of a crowd of enemies and pull them all towards me... repeatedly and doing no damage.  That's not how to thief at all.  

 

I know it can be useful at times but it's like they are daring us to kill ourselves.

[Phewlm.3148]

I really love the theme of this spec, but in addition to many of the points you've already mentioned I would like:

1.  Well of gloom to give regen instead of cripple.
2. Change Shadowsquall into an attack/heal similar to chain lightning/chain heal from WoW/Warcraft. This would improve Spectre's aoe dmg, as well as healing, and increase the usefulness of personal stealth in group combat.
3. Turn Shadow Sap into a ground targeted aoe like necro's Grasping Dead and give it a damaging condition. Adjust initiative cost and potency for balance.
4. Give us a trait to increase tethered targets for more support.
5. Move alac application to damaging wells or something else. Let us be able to use utility wells reactively and not off cooldown.
6. Reduce aftercast/improve animation speed on scepter dual skills to improve smoothness. Thief feels reactive and fast. Dual skills and some wells on Specter does imo not match the feel of the thief class.

These are just the things I remember off the top of my head.

[kash.9213]

On 2/18/2023 at 5:36 AM, nopoet.2960 said:

Can I just say that shadowfall is a bizarre elite for someone who mained a thief since the beginning.  They want me to jump in the middle of a crowd of enemies and pull them all towards me... repeatedly and doing no damage.  That's not how to thief at all.  

 

I know it can be useful at times but it's like they are daring us to kill ourselves.

I like it for dropping on our lane when we break out of something for the other side to run over or I'll close distance on their group or squad drive instead and land it so their sides shave it or where I want to interrupt whatever is keeping their fire rate up along with dropping other Control so I'm not right in there. I agree though, it's a commitment to being within range of a lot of stuff even if you don't land right in the middle. It also feels most effective with some follow up of Well of Silence and Dawn's Repose for a trajectory to still hit enough of their strong points or to help your people step away and that means using up everything. I guess I can understand that it's meant for stepping around to work an area with other Wells and Shadowsteps and Elites need some regulation, but it's range, duration, and radius can be a flash in the pan in a lot of fights and doesn't really scare anyone.

Edited February 20 by kash.9213

[Doggie.3184]

On 2/18/2023 at 8:36 AM, nopoet.2960 said:

Can I just say that shadowfall is a bizarre elite for someone who mained a thief since the beginning.  They want me to jump in the middle of a crowd of enemies and pull them all towards me... repeatedly and doing no damage.  That's not how to thief at all.  

 

I know it can be useful at times but it's like they are daring us to kill ourselves.

Well people, including myself, did ask to have Wells become ranged cast and flip over to a Shadowstep to teleport to the Well if you press it again, like Shadow Flare but without the Well moving positions. Really good and rational suggestion but fell on deaf ears

Lack of AoE (while everyone else is completely overloaded with it to the brim) and overabundance of their stubbornness preventing them from giving this spec anything fun has indeed made it really boring to me by now. Went back to playing our only fun elite spec, Daredevil. Probably just use Engi again for instanced content since their guns actually get love now while ours are still terrible. And can just play Ele if you wanna use Scepter in a fun way. They don't play Thief enough to know what to do with it.

Edited February 20 by Doggie.3184

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 2/14/2023 at 1:41 PM, itspomf.9523 said:

From an open-world PvE standpoint, I'm not sure why this elite specialization exists.  Half the effects of my skills are largely useless, since other classes do them better (and without having to explicitly target allies), wells are just awkward to deal with (and honestly feel bolted on to create artificial synergy with Shadow Arts, even before the buffs), and please don't get me started on how completely awkward scepter and all its skills are, combos included.  And with the shroud changes, it's just weird and awkward to play.

I wanted to like this one, I really did, but almost a year later and it still feels like an unfinished placeholder.  Animations, traits, even the skill effects themselves seem unfinished.  And the shroud is just strange, like a discount version of Harbinger.

I like the concept behind a condition-oriented thief (not that scepter's particularly good at that, mind) and one that can support its allies.  I think there is a genuinely good concept behind this elite specialization, but I feel it honestly needs to be reimagined into something more coherent.  Unfortunately, I don't know what that is, beyond "get rid of the awkward ally targeting."

I would not describe it as particularly boring in as much as it has issues. It is quite a fun class to play in my opinion. Besides that I agree, specter could be improved in some areas to smoothen things out.

For Open World specifically I would suggest going with a 'ritualist' setup, using at least 3 wells (the same ones as the alac build). This will give you a higher defensive rating via more HP, a bigger shroud, decent damage, more skills to maneuver and or use to assist allies (wells). Even though shroud HP ratios were nerfed, it is still very doable to solo gold group event champions.

Here are some things that come to mind when I think of specter haha...

1. Specter is just awkward to play as a single target support... if skills weren't body blocked instead of going to their intended target then perhaps it would feel better.

2. Specter doesn't work underwater very well. Your wells are unusable, shroud feels awkward. I guess we shouldn't expect much because basically every underwater profession for thief turns into core thief, except deadeye with malice and, well specter with a limited shroud.

3. The reverse teleport is janky sometimes for scepter / pistol when targeting enemies. I would rather have had this skill have a activate to start and a reactivate function if you chose to move. Granted I do like this skill for PvP / WvW. In PvE it feels weird.

4. The rotation is skill 3 spam so that can get boring for high end content... but then again you are talking about Open World. There are a lot of other options there. Actually to me, the skill 3 spam is the boring part for higher end content haha... Out of DD / DE and Specter... DPS specter has the most boring rotation for PvE.

5. The specter shroud HP ratio nerf made PvE specter shroud less satisfying to use in terms of impact. Sure it's great still, but it should feel more impactful in my opinion. The shroud HP Ratio nerf overshot things for PvE content. In my opinion the balance should have happened on the trait consume shadows instead.

6. Ritualists gear is hard to get... Sure I have full legendary gear so I could stat swap to it day 1 of EoD, but many other's can't.

PS: A term like  higher "effective defensive rating" via HP might be foreign to some GW2 players, however it is commonly referred to in other games like League of Legends by people who know the game well. The higher your HP the more blows you can take. Of course toughness is much more effective, however HP is also a contributing factor.

Edited February 22 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Antycypator.9874]

Shadow Shroud is power based, but Specter itself is almost purely condi focused. Why?
— Rework Shadow Shroud and make it more condi. Shroud should feel powerful, but instead it's just a filler in your rotation that does slighty better job than AA.

What is the point of cutting out 3 initiative points? To prevent us from using other weapons than Scepter?
— Bring back full initiative and increase ini costs for Scepter skills. Being able to play D/D Specter shouldn't hold us back.

The clunkiest class ever.
— Fix Twilight Combo. The animation is weird, timing sucks.

Wells are random.
— Random condis, random boons. Why? Thief shouldn't rely on randomness. We rely on precise attacks, so please delete the "they don't already have" feature.

Zero self support.
— How many boons can you generate just for yourself? For most of the time you will have zero boons. This makes Specter one of the worst Open-World specs in this game, because boons are important. This is why Deadeye is superior to Specter, because DE is loaded with boons.

Second Opinion Traits does nothing.
— Come on, this is a blank trait for people who don't want to use Consume Shadow or Shallow Grave. You gain literally nothing useful, even for support specter. Do you realize that 200 healing power increases barriers by 50-120 points? (depends on skill).

 

There is so many wrong things about Specter. I don't care about DPS numbers in instanced content, because it still sucks. Boring rotation, slow skills, can't even run fast or generate decent amount of boons. Barrier isn't healing.

[Zacchary.6183]

On 2/24/2023 at 3:32 AM, Antycypator.9874 said:

Shadow Shroud is power based, but Specter itself is almost purely condi focused. Why?

You can get into shroud much quicker with power builds since d/p and sword (power weaponsets) have much better shadowsteps and therefore shadow force generation through traversing dusk. That's probably why shroud is power based.

[Bunny.9834]

I’m still not a fan of specter because it was a such a missed opportunity to bring back the Assassin. 

However, here we are and we’re stuck with this slow purple blob. 

Thematically, they couldve pushed the Ninja-Oni theme with Shroud mechanic and turned the Specter into a Dark version of Holosmith.

The idea was to have “Shadow Weapons” for skills while you enter shroud. 

Right now the current shroud skills are so clunky, boring and confusing. The duality of the offensive and support with the skills are so unintuitive. 

[TwiceDead.1963]

It's just so jank.

[Phewlm.3148]

Traits suggestions:

 

"Well timed": Cuts casting speed and interval time of wells down to half the original amount.

- This will make the wells feel more responsive and faster, which is more fitting for a thief. Could be implemented to baseline. 

 

"Tether burst": Increase number of tethered targets to 4 for 5 seconds at reduced efficiency(?).

 - Improve aoe supporting capability and make tether feel more impactful in a group setting. 

 

Thoughts?

Edited March 9 by Phewlm.3148