Add an unblockable, unreflectable buff to Shadowmeld? Thoughts?

[Raincloud.2594]

So when you use Shadowmeld you would get a buff that makes your next attack completely unblockable and unreflectable

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 minutes ago, Raincloud.2594 said:

So when you use Shadowmeld you would get a buff that makes your next attack completely unblockable and unreflectable

Use

 

Basilisk venom.

[Raincloud.2594]

cd is too high and you gotta waste an evade or other form of stealth

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

That would make it an objectively better version of basi venom. I like the way you're thinking, but it needs to be different enough from the other elites so as to not be a better version of what already exists, otherwise it will never happen. 

[Bunny.9834]

Without the reveal removal, it should be (at minimum) an instacast, a stun break, and have 30s recharge time. 

It’s an ELITE SKILL. 

[Yasai.3549]

On 2/16/2023 at 12:25 PM, Raincloud.2594 said:

So when you use Shadowmeld you would get a buff that makes your next attack completely unblockable and unreflectable

I'd prefer if Shadowmeld prevents the next Stealth Attack and only Stealth Attack from revealing you. That way it addresses the symptom of unpunishable Stealth to escape but also stops it from being useless or just a long CD pocket Stealth. 

 

Sounds too simple but it's not. This allows you to Shadowmeld > DJ > Shadowmeld again  > DJ again > Reenter Stealth a third time > DJ. 

I also feel a need to express that nerfing Shadowmeld doesn't change anything. As usual, Anet nerfing everything but the core complaint about Deadeye, and it's definitely not Shadowmeld. (hint, it's a certain trait which interacts with your endurance bar) 

Edited February 23 by Yasai.3549

[ASP.8093]

On 2/23/2023 at 1:17 PM, Bunny.9834 said:

Without the reveal removal, it should be (at minimum) an instacast, a stun break, and have 30s recharge time. 

It’s an ELITE SKILL. 

"Elite skill" doesn't mean better, "elite skill" means "a skill with a high cooldown and a big effect." Most of the time they're on balance a little bit worse than a very good utility skill.

[ASP.8093]

10 hours ago, kai.5149 said:

I'd prefer thief spamming evades / blind / port / stealth removed

This whole game is about spamming ports, blind, and evades. Come on now.

[Bunny.9834]

1 hour ago, ASP.8093 said:

"Elite skill" doesn't mean better, "elite skill" means "a skill with a high cooldown and a big effect." Most of the time they're on balance a little bit worse than a very good utility skill.

Not sure what your point is. 

 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

2 hours ago, kai.5149 said:

To be honest thief is the biggest offender

I have a feeling you don't play thief.

Repeated nerfs made it so that Thief can't spam blinds without Whirlaxe blind powder combo (Single blinds are easily countered), Thief can't spam ports as easily as you think. Infil's Arrow is so expensive that it depletes your Init reserves immediately, so all weapons suffer for it. And Sword's Port ability is easily punished as it has a cast time. A well timed stun, burst combo, or better... tossing a trap onto the return point will murder a sword thief. Evade options on a thief doesn't protect them from condi-bs. And their ability to spam evades is hindered by a variety of things. Init if they rely on sword and dagger or dual dagger, Exhaustion (A bs mechanic that shouldn't exist), and stamina (not having vigor or stripping vigor from a thief will kitten them royally) Even daredevils.

 

Stealth also has counter play. but people don't care to do it. They would rather complain. You know what the thief wants, so you deny them. You spam AOEs on yourself to zone the thief away from you. Or if you were paying attention, you drop an AOE onto the thief or their smoke.  Landing a tracking skill on a cloaking thief also continues tracking through the cloak. Sooooo... yeah.

Edited February 27 by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

[Yuberwaifu.8039]

3 hours ago, kai.5149 said:

you seem to not have played wvw recently (maybe since launch ) lol

 Do you hijack now every thread here in the thief sub only because you need a big load of copium?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, kai.5149 said:

you seem to not have played wvw recently (maybe since launch ) lol

This guy was minding his business and a roaming thief took his lunch money

Now, he wants REVENGE. 

Become a thief too and go steal it back. Vigilante justice. 

Edited February 27 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Dr Meta.3158]

12 hours ago, Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

I have a feeling you don't play thief.

Repeated nerfs made it so that Thief can't spam blinds without Whirlaxe blind powder combo (Single blinds are easily countered), Thief can't spam ports as easily as you think. Infil's Arrow is so expensive that it depletes your Init reserves immediately, so all weapons suffer for it. And Sword's Port ability is easily punished as it has a cast time. A well timed stun, burst combo, or better... tossing a trap onto the return point will murder a sword thief. Evade options on a thief doesn't protect them from condi-bs. And their ability to spam evades is hindered by a variety of things. Init if they rely on sword and dagger or dual dagger, Exhaustion (A bs mechanic that shouldn't exist), and stamina (not having vigor or stripping vigor from a thief will kitten them royally) Even daredevils.

 

Stealth also has counter play. but people don't care to do it. They would rather complain. You know what the thief wants, so you deny them. You spam AOEs on yourself to zone the thief away from you. Or if you were paying attention, you drop an AOE onto the thief or their smoke.  Landing a tracking skill on a cloaking thief also continues tracking through the cloak. Sooooo... yeah.

Play d/p daredevil

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

9 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Play d/p daredevil

Do you acknowledge the weapons mentioned by the person you quoted are needlessly difficult to fight with on thief and require adjustment? 

If I have your angle right, I think there's a problem with chiding thieves for leaning into stealth oriented play but recommending they do that in response to their other options being unjustifiably weak. 

Edited February 27 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Do you acknowledge the weapons mentioned by the person you quoted are needlessly difficult to fight with on thief and require adjustment? 

If I have your angle right, I think there's a problem with chiding thieves for leaning into stealth oriented play but recommending they do that in response to their other options being unjustifiably weak. 

I don't blame thieves for using a mechanic given to them. I blame arenanet for not properly implementing the mechanic despite obvious examples to draw from through other games before and during Guild Wars 2 last lifetime. WoW used the skyscale template. Use their invisibility mechanic or preferably, overwatch's.

I think overwatch's invisibility mechanic for Sombra is top tier. You can partially see her when she's close. You can hear her when she's close and when she tries to fire upon you there is a forced delay inbetween the button activation and the actual fire to allow the invisible to visible model to fully load while giving off an audible voiceline in the process which makes stealth a tool for infiltration and repositioning rather than an abusive mechanic to harass people with in actual fights.

If overwatch handled invisibility like guild wars 2 handled stealth, Sombra would be the most broken dps hero by far and people would quit the game in droves, as they should.

[kash.9213]

6 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

I don't blame thieves for using a mechanic given to them. I blame arenanet for not properly implementing the mechanic despite obvious examples to draw from through other games before and during Guild Wars 2 last lifetime. WoW used the skyscale template. Use their invisibility mechanic or preferably, overwatch's.

I think overwatch's invisibility mechanic for Sombra is top tier. You can partially see her when she's close. You can hear her when she's close and when she tries to fire upon you there is a forced delay inbetween the button activation and the actual fire to allow the invisible to visible model to fully load while giving off an audible voiceline in the process which makes stealth a tool for infiltration and repositioning rather than an abusive mechanic to harass people with in actual fights.

If overwatch handled invisibility like guild wars 2 handled stealth, Sombra would be the most broken dps hero by far and people would quit the game in droves, as they should.

You're talking about visibility. The full mechanics of GW2 stealth is great, it uses your resource budget and can be denied, but it's also engaging. I don't see much wrong with these mechanics.

I liked the opacity change on a stealthed player in Age of Conan based on proximity to a hostile player or npc. Not sure if that would be needed really but it did add something to decision making which was fun. You can pretty much already hear what stealthed players are doing and there will be signs around to pick up on if you're panning camera a lot when you travel and post up.

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

You're talking about visibility. The full mechanics of GW2 stealth is great, it uses your resource budget and can be denied, but it's also engaging. I don't see much wrong with these mechanics.

I liked the opacity change on a stealthed player in Age of Conan based on proximity to a hostile player or npc. Not sure if that would be needed really but it did add something to decision making which was fun. You can pretty much already hear what stealthed players are doing and there will be signs around to pick up on if you're panning camera a lot when you travel and post up.

I think its because you're not really understanding the full scope of the problem with stealth. And it isn't just you but a lot of people. As you become more mechanically skilled at the game, it becomes more obvious but let me hit some critical points.

1. There is a delay between a successful attack and the stealth dropping due to lag allowing at least one if not multiple free attacks just due to network delays between the server and the pcs.

2. Stealth is given to classes with high mobility allowing it to be the ultimate disengage tool as well as the ultimate setup since none of it can be interacted with unless you setup reveal with only a few classes have access to and even then its very limited in those cases.

3. Because of 1 and 2. Stealth can be paired with glass cannon setups and a secondary defense, for d/p thief typically blinds from black powder allowing stealth and blinds at once, to allow for heavy uninteractable bursts that allows a full disengage along with the freedom to try as many times as they want before they succeed. 

That's why the saying "a good thief only dies if they want to" exists.

 

Woe to the old players that just simply got 1 shotted out of stealth with at times the thief going back into stealth so quickly that their character doesn't even load. The receiving party just suddenly dies with the only evidence of what ever happened was hearing the metal noise of a hit landing. That is part of the many reasons why the competitive game modes are essentially dead.

 

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

I think its because you're not really understanding the full scope of the problem with stealth. And it isn't just you but a lot of people. As you become more mechanically skilled at the game, it becomes more obvious but let me hit some critical points.

1. There is a delay between a successful attack and the stealth dropping due to lag allowing at least one if not multiple free attacks just due to network delays between the server and the pcs.

2. Stealth is given to classes with high mobility allowing it to be the ultimate disengage tool as well as the ultimate setup since none of it can be interacted with unless you setup reveal with only a few classes have access to and even then its very limited in those cases.

3. Because of 1 and 2. Stealth can be paired with glass cannon setups and a secondary defense, for d/p thief typically blinds from black powder allowing stealth and blinds at once, to allow for heavy uninteractable bursts that allows a full disengage along with the freedom to try as many times as they want before they succeed. 

That's why the saying "a good thief only dies if they want to" exists.

 

Woe to the old players that just simply got 1 shotted out of stealth with at times the thief going back into stealth so quickly that their character doesn't even load. The receiving party just suddenly dies with the only evidence of what ever happened was hearing the metal noise of a hit landing. That is part of the many reasons why the competitive game modes are essentially dead.

 

It can be interacted with. You can deny some of it. You can read how they're doing it and probably what they're plotting. Some builds can be problematic, but that's a problem with those builds and not the Stealth mechanic, and those builds are normally novelty. 

Stealth and mobility is how people mitigate unless you want to upkeep M7 or something. They could probably tone down blinds some but there needs to be effective deliberate blinds because you can't always stealth, you can still get hit in stealth, and we need to offer up some stuff to the team. I'd also be fine with some kind of proximity opacity but I don't think it's really needed. I'd be okay with it if Stealth Attacks were more impactful since again, approach would change, which I'd also be okay with. And if opening damage is a concern, add some more residual modifiers or something else unique to Stealth Attacks. 

[RazieL.5684]

imagine wanting to buff thieves...