Reaper's onslaught needs the impossible odds treatment

[Shadowmoon.7986]

With chill to bone offering massive quickness uptime, the quickness given in reaper shroud has lost its potency. This is the same problem impossible odds had during the start of hot, so anets solution was impossible odd was changed to give extra attacks. Reaper onslaught needs the same treatment so it can synergize with the new chill to the giving quickness.  

[DEATHsCLAW.1978]

it's the only good trait in this traitline! if anet touches it it will for sure be nerfed in the process..

[Acanthus.8120]

But you can finally take Close to Death while soloing instead of Dread now. Before, you needed to take Dread to maintain quickness (and fury) out of shroud. Now you don't because Chilled to the Bone will give you both. Gotta run tests against solo champs, but in theory it sounds nice.

[Yasai.3549]

The problem with Reaper's Onslaught isn't the Quickness at all, especially in group content.

 

It's the fact you lose its whopping Ferocity bonus the moment you step out of Shroud. What Reaper's Onslaught needs is for it to last for 15s out of Shroud like Soul Barbs so that your DPS doesn't  jump off a cliff for finishing your Shroud rotation and exiting Shroud.

 

Change it to 15% increased Critical Damage as a buff that persists in Shroud and for either 15s out of Shroud or for a number of attacks or something. 

[Acanthus.8120]

1 hour ago, Yasai.3549 said:

The problem with Reaper's Onslaught isn't the Quickness at all, especially in group content.

 

It's the fact you lose its whopping Ferocity bonus the moment you step out of Shroud. What Reaper's Onslaught needs is for it to last for 15s out of Shroud like Soul Barbs so that your DPS doesn't  jump off a cliff for finishing your Shroud rotation and exiting Shroud.

 

Change it to 15% increased Critical Damage as a buff that persists in Shroud and for either 15s out of Shroud or for a number of attacks or something. 

I mean, Death Perception's damage portion works the same way. It's under Soul Reaping, so it's not surprising, but giving that buff to Reaper's Onslaught doesn't change that you want to be in shroud to gain might, 15% crit damage, and apply vulnerability. 4 different traits force us to be in shroud as much as humanly possible. Not to mention that all Necromancer power weapons have flaws in either numbers or fluidity (from aftercasts), which further reinforces the point.

Edit: Also 300 ferocity is 20% crit damage. 15 points of ferocity = 1% crit.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Acanthus.8120

[Yasai.3549]

12 minutes ago, Acanthus.8120 said:

I mean, Death Perception's damage portion works the same way. It's under Soul Reaping, so it's not surprising, but giving that buff to Reaper's Onslaught doesn't change that you want to be in shroud to gain might, 15% crit damage, and apply vulnerability. 4 different traits force us to be in shroud as much as humanly possible. Not to mention that all Necromancer power weapons have flaws in either numbers or fluidity (from aftercasts), which further reinforces the point.

Edit: Also 300 ferocity is 20% crit damage. 15 points of ferocity = 1% crit.

These are all issues that affect Necro Shroud in general, but since we're talking specifically about Reaper and Reaper's Onslaught, I'd like to keep it strictly to that right now. 

There are many issues with the Reaper spec as a primarily Shroud focused spec, but this Shroud focus inadvertently holds it back. 

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

CttB is not reliable and nearly useless against bosses with no adds as a source of quickness (and fury).

[Dr Meta.3158]

4 hours ago, Acanthus.8120 said:

But you can finally take Close to Death while soloing instead of Dread now. Before, you needed to take Dread to maintain quickness (and fury) out of shroud. Now you don't because Chilled to the Bone will give you both. Gotta run tests against solo champs, but in theory it sounds nice.

You can't upkeep the fury with just chilled to the bone. You'd need to cover it with curses and rune of the pack which isn't worth it.

[Dadnir.5038]

I do agree with the OP, but I also understand why people wouldn't want that.

- The pro is that with the impossible odds treatment to reaper onslaught the reaper would see it's dps increased by leap and bound in organized groups.

- The cons is that for most reaper feel bad (way to slow) without Quickness so it will somehow make people feel bad when soloing content.

By all mean, people that want to see reaper become a "dps spec" should support such idea... Seeing so many "confused" instead is kinda ironic.

[Yasai.3549]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I do agree with the OP, but I also understand why people wouldn't want that.

- The pro is that with the impossible odds treatment to reaper onslaught the reaper would see it's dps increased by leap and bound in organized groups.

- The cons is that for most reaper feel bad (way to slow) without Quickness so it will somehow make people feel bad when soloing content.

By all mean, people that want to see reaper become a "dps spec" should support such idea... Seeing so many "confused" instead is kinda ironic.

That's because of OP's comment of Quickness uptime using CTTB.

 

That's the real eyebrow raiser here and earns the confuse reacts. 

 

 

[Asum.4960]

16 hours ago, Acanthus.8120 said:

But you can finally take Close to Death while soloing instead of Dread now. Before, you needed to take Dread to maintain quickness (and fury) out of shroud. Now you don't because Chilled to the Bone will give you both. Gotta run tests against solo champs, but in theory it sounds nice.

From my very quick testing, you still need RO for Quickness (and the Ferocity + CDR), and you still need Dread for Fury - even with CttB and Firework Runes and the like, even when tested with ~50% BD. 

So even for solo play, this doesn't really change anything (same with Dagger MH, still clunky - if not more so, still way underperforming).

 

As for the OP, Reaper already has something somewhat akin to Impossible Odds in Chilling Nova, esp. since it's ICD reduction. The problem is just that it can't Crit. 

Things that can't Crit (hello Life Siphon's) are just a big no-no in PvE. 

 

If Reaper's Onslaught was to be changed, id say it's a good candidate for giving Reaper a Shroudless pure DPS option, so it doesn't get it's damage deleted by incoming damage. 

To compensate for solo play, make Soul Eater a better sustain Trait, and rework Decimate Defense to something like extra Strike Damage per stack of Vulnerability on the target as the competing DPS option instead. 

Allow Chilling Nova to Crit in PvE.

And there you go - solid pDPS build for Reaper without Shroud as excuse to underperform - which can spec into various degrees of sustain at the sacrifice of damage.

[Dr Meta.3158]

10 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I do agree with the OP, but I also understand why people wouldn't want that.

- The pro is that with the impossible odds treatment to reaper onslaught the reaper would see it's dps increased by leap and bound in organized groups.

- The cons is that for most reaper feel bad (way to slow) without Quickness so it will somehow make people feel bad when soloing content.

By all mean, people that want to see reaper become a "dps spec" should support such idea... Seeing so many "confused" instead is kinda ironic.

You used Reaper and DPS in the same post. Now I'm just waiting for Obtena to come derail the topic.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

14 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

That's because of OP's comment of Quickness uptime using CTTB.

 

That's the real eyebrow raiser here and earns the confuse reacts. 

 

 

You need to hit 3 targets in melee to hit quickness cap in pve, if  you hit 5 targets in melee in wvw or pvp, you hit quickness cap.  Cttb has a cool down of 36 sec.  with it theoretically giving 30sec of quickness every time in open world.  For a class that is not a quickness source, that is an incredibly  high quickness uptime.

[Yasai.3549]

27 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

You need to hit 3 targets in melee to hit quickness cap in pve, if  you hit 5 targets in melee in wvw or pvp, you hit quickness cap.  Cttb has a cool down of 36 sec.  with it theoretically giving 30sec of quickness every time in open world.  For a class that is not a quickness source, that is an incredibly  high quickness uptime.

Caveats: 
- You need 3 targets period (yikes for boss encounters) 

- You need all 3 targets to be hit in 130 Range (super yikes) 

This is why theory talk needs to be backed by practical application. OP's argument is that "WE CAN UPTIME QUICKNESS NOW, HENCE BUFF REAPER'S ONSLAUGHT" when that's not the point and not why you should be asking for a buff. I'm all for Reaper's Onslaught or Reaper buffs in general, but using CTTB as the reason for doing so is straight up Confused React. There's also the straight up fact that you may want to use Flesh Golem or Lich Form for specific encounters and locking yourself into a melee range conditional Quickness source may or may not be feasible. 

If say he wanted Reaper's Onslaught buffed in any way without citing the Quickness uptime nonsense, people probably wouldn't have reacted as such. Personally, I would like Reaper's Onslaught buffed, but not in the way OP mentioned. As I've already said, Quickness from Reaper's Onslaught is already pretty low value in endgame structured content due to supports coughing out boons on you 24/7. What needs to be done is ensure the benefits you gain from Reaper Onslaught doesn't entirely evaporate the moment your drop Shroud to use your off-shroud rotation. 

 

 

 

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

don't touch Reaper's Onslaught please. 😑

[Shadowmoon.7986]

You are acting like hitting hitting 3 targets in pve is hard,  you literally have GS 5, a 5 target pull into melee. And odd are they blind from well of darkness, nightfall and have 3 sec of stun.

What are you classifying as a boss? Are you talking about a encounter in a group setting where you should have a dedicated quickness source.  Because reaper is already in a bad situation where the trait only is 300 ferocity. Are you talking about a open world boss, where the bar is so low traits do not matter? Are you talking about a LS boss where the NPC's kill boss for you, and you have infinite re spawns?

Edited February 20, 2023 by Shadowmoon.7986

[Asum.4960]

52 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

You are acting like hitting hitting 3 targets in pve is hard,  you literally have GS 5, a 5 target pull into melee. And odd are they blind from well of darkness, nightfall and have 3 sec of stun.

What are you classifying as a boss? Are you talking about a encounter in a group setting where you should have a dedicated quickness source.  Because reaper is already in a bad situation where the trait only is 300 ferocity. Are you talking about a open world boss, where the bar is so low traits do not matter? Are you talking about a LS boss where the NPC's kill boss for you, and you have infinite re spawns?

He's probably talking about any application where the uptime actually matters. You don't need permanent Quickness uptime to burst down some OW trash mobs you can pull together. 

If you solo HP's, Fractals, DRM CM's, Bounties, etc. - as in any somewhat meaningful solo content or challenge - 3 target 130 range cleave every, or any, CttB is most likely not going to happen. 

Three targets in 130 range in PvP is about as unlikely. 

 

Plus RO isn't "just" 300 Ferocity, it's also a pretty instrumental CDR Trait for Reaper Shroud.

It's one of the last things that I'd consider for a Buff to boost Power Reaper, especially given Spite has two dead minor Traits, Core, especially Power Weapons besides Greatsword are in pretty bad to terrible shape in PvE, and something as easy as allowing Chilling Nova to Crit (and adjusting it accordingly) are available as options. 

 

This reminds me a bit of people mathing out the potential of Locust Swarm in some 5 Target cleave 180 range scenarios and proclaiming the skill to be actually good, despite it's terribly niche use cases in practice. 

 

Targets hit is probably not something you want a skill or entire build to rely on to function.

[Dr Meta.3158]

39 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

He's probably talking about any application where the uptime actually matters. You don't need permanent Quickness uptime to burst down some OW trash mobs you can pull together. 

If you solo HP's, Fractals, DRM CM's, Bounties, etc. - as in any somewhat meaningful solo content or challenge - 3 target 130 range cleave every, or any, CttB is most likely not going to happen. 

Three targets in 130 range in PvP is about as unlikely. 

 

Plus RO isn't "just" 300 Ferocity, it's also a pretty instrumental CDR Trait for Reaper Shroud.

It's one of the last things that I'd consider for a Buff to boost Power Reaper, especially given Spite has two dead minor Traits, Core, especially Power Weapons besides Greatsword are in pretty bad to terrible shape in PvE, and something as easy as allowing Chilling Nova to Crit (and adjusting it accordingly) are available as options. 

 

This reminds me a bit of people mathing out the potential of Locust Swarm in some 5 Target cleave 180 range scenarios and proclaiming the skill to be actually good, despite it's terribly niche use cases in practice. 

 

Targets hit is probably not something you want a skill or entire build to rely on to function.

Personally, I'd like them to rework deathly chill into something good for endgame pve and leave reaper's onslaught alone. Good chances if they, for whatever reason, buff reaper's onslaught then they are most definitely going to go back to obliterate it and thus Reaper into the ground.

[KrHome.1920]

Nerfing the attack speed of onslaught is not an option currently because this is the only viable trait for reaper. 

Binding the reaper attack speed to a precast of a quickness generating skill or trait (CTTB, Dread) might work in low skill level environments like PvE but would kill reaper in the competitive modes (the hits would either be denied or the one single non pulsing quickness stack would be removed/corrupted instantly).

ANet does not know what to do with the reaper gm traits for years now. That said: more quickness sources outside of onslaught are indircet buffs to blighter's boon and deathly chill. And that is at least something even though in contrast this additional quickness is kinda useless for  many onslaught builds - esp. in the competitive modes where all the viable utility skills except wurm are instant cast.

[Esufer.8762]

7 hours ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

don't touch Reaper's Onslaught please. 😑

this is the best opinion in this thread

[Elldar.1647]

Putting aside the fact that the Quickness provided by CttB relies on having more than one target to be effective, it's worth mentioning that it's actually bugged right now, at least in my experience(dunno if it's my trait choices screwing with it or what). Instead of giving 10 seconds of Quickness per target as advertised, it only actually gives 5s per target, meaning that you couldn't reach the 30s Quickness cap this way if you wanted to.

 

I've long since submitted the bug report, but who knows how long it'll take them to care.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

6 minutes ago, Elldar.1647 said:

Instead of giving 10 seconds of Quickness per target as advertised, it only actually gives 5s per target

if we look at "Dread" and other sources of quickness, it's likely the tooltip of CttB is wrong. 10 seconds would be too much.

[Elldar.1647]

Just now, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

if we look at "Dread" and other sources of quickness, it's likely the tooltip of CttB is wrong. 10 seconds would be too much.

Maybe so, personally I'm fine with 5s, but I'd prefer if they fixed the tooltip in that case, at least. Keep people from wondering whether the skill is working as intended or not.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 2/19/2023 at 11:07 PM, Asum.4960 said:

Targets hit is probably not something you want a skill or entire build to rely on to function.

That’s not true. Target cap is important for deciding the potential for how powerful a skill can be, and the actual question is whether you can actually meet that potential in whatever the scenario.

I agree with everything else you said though, before that last sentence. The only scenarios where you can reach the potential of CTTB would be in everything except boss fights and 1v1’s…

 

with that said, I’ve yet to actually use this skill to know exactly how it works post patch changes.

 

Cheers,

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Asum.4960]

10 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

That’s not true. Target cap is important for deciding the potential for how powerful a skill can be, and the actual question is whether you can actually meet that potential in whatever the scenario.

I agree with everything else you said though, before that last sentence. The only scenarios where you can reach the potential of CTTB would be in everything except boss fights and 1v1’s…

 

with that said, I’ve yet to actually use this skill to know exactly how it works post patch changes.

 

Cheers,

 

I didn't say it's not an important factor, just that a skill or such shouldn't entirely rely on it. I agree the key question is how common achieving that qualifier is - but if you want your build to have or provide quickness for example, you probably don't want it to be just against x targets - esp. since most build testing gameplay moments are precisely against single targets, such as bosses. 

Hordes of trash which can be pulled together & bursted, chain CC'ed, Blinded, etc., generally aren't particularly challenging, especially for something like Reaper, already. 

Giving it something target conditional just means that 1) you build around getting that target conditional thing anyway from other sources, overcapping against multiple targets and just having pointless redundancy, or 2) rely on the target conditional and don't have what you need when you most need it (such as in "boss" encounters).

That doesn't sound particularly compelling to me.

 

The example I used in the quoted post for context of that statement was Locust Swarm, for which more than once I saw people mathing out, "Hey if you have max healing power (and traited it in Blood) and hit 5 targets with it in 180 range over 5 second while both you and 4 other allies directly next to you in a 360 radius are in need of a big heal, the skill actually heals for a really hefty amount! So it's actually a great skill!" - completely disregarding 1. while technically achievable ofc, how incredibly niche that is in terms of general gameplay scenario and 2. how inflated about any skill looks if multiplied for max investment and cleave/targets (this skill heals for 10k and grants 60+ Might, that skill grants 25 stacks of Stability, insane!), while generally also being good outside of such niche situations as well as providing other aspects of value. (And 3. no worthwhile build existing which capitalises on the required investments in other ways, making that mute anyway.)

 

So in closing, I rather have a skill that's always good and fit for function as baseline, and scales appropriately with multiple targets beyond that (which is generally how skills work), than a skill that's always bad as baseline except for scaling obscenely against multiple targets only, or requires multiple targets to fulfil it's primary desired function.

 

/E:

Actually as addendum and to clarify, now that I gathered my thoughts on the matter - I think CttB is a ridiculous and bloated skill now, which is worrying because it gives indication that the person who designed for example Harbinger and it's Elixir's is likely still in a fairly prominent design position, and hasn't learned a thing (or there are more people who take the shortcut of skill bloat over good design).

But despite all that bloat, it still doesn't manage to be particularly compelling or good design wise. 

 

Imo skills shouldn't scale in function with targets, just in effect, period.

Example for why this is a bad idea:

Symbol of Resolution: Pulses 5 times, grants 1 second of Resolution per pulse to you and allies in the Symbol. Good (well technically imo the Resolution uptime of this skill needs a small buff, but that's irrelevant to the argument at hand). The skill always does what you need it to do, be it against 1 enemy or 5, with no ally or 5. It's effect scales with targets, it's function remains the same.

Example of how to make this skill bad with target scaling: Symbol of Resolution: Pulses 5 times, grants 0.25 seconds of Resolution per target hit to you and allies in the Symbol.

Now technically that is more potential Resolution in theory/on paper (with max cleave), in practice the skill is butchered for general play (Power/Radiance builds relying on Resolution), since it's function now scales with target number (and has to be balanced accordingly), meaning it can't be relied upon to fulfil it's function otherwise. Not fun.

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Asum.4960