The future of GW2 might no longer have Elite Specs. Where does that leave Warrior?

[Jzaku.9765]

This thread is about Warrior's available gameplay options. This means that the specific state of Balance at this point of time should be completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. 

In case you missed the discussion surrounding it - in the Feb 2023 Studio Update, Anet announced that we are moving to a <2 yearly "Mini-expansion" content cycle.
Assuming they follow through with it, and with an intentional dodge on using "Elite Specs" anywhere in the description of said content cycle, it's very possible that EOD was our last wave of Elite Specs.

That said, I've been holding off on a lot of criticism about the Class design over the past ~6 years (since HOT), because there might always have been an Elite Spec on the horizon that would expand Warrior's toolbox and open up the gameplay options available to it. 

But now we're staring down at a future where our class profession mechanics will never expand to support more gameplay archetypes.
An example of what I mean by this is like how Druid gives Celestial Avatar to Ranger to explicitly support a Healer/Support archetype. Trying to shove Warrior into the Healer/Support archetype without an espec providing an equivalent of Celestial Avatar would be akin to imagining a Healer/Support Druid without Celestial Avatar. 

So we get to current Warrior where they have tried now and again to offer it more Gameplay options by shoving it into the Core spec, leading us to great hits such as:

• "You have to slot 2+ Banner utilities to be an offensive support"
• "You have to slot 3+ Shout utilities to be a healer with 0 trickle healing"
• These are mutually exclusive with each other
• You can't be a healer anyway because modern healers are the complete package of Heals and Boons, the latter of which Warrior still has 0 access to Prot 

What are your thoughts on how Warrior can move forwards into this future with 3 Elite Specs, all designed to be the same melee bruiser archetype? 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Jzaku.9765

[Shinja.3451]

Nothing, when anet hires competent people to balance and design both skills and traits to fulfill certain functions, the warrior will even be able to fly if you want, if you wish the bladesworn will become a guardian 2.0, but they don't have competent people for that.
Or leaving bad jokes and nonsense aside, I doubt that anet will take the time to see how things really work, partly because they already lost much of their original design of many weapons, traits etc. and, on the other hand, trying to "innovate" usually destroys many things, and if you add to that the bad habit of the same developers that I don't know what they have with nerfing my build A/A, you end up with absurd nonsense like not long ago the 1 of the engineer's rifle that the animation was ridiculous just like its functioning, but it goes to show that some things just get overlooked if a developer gets half dumb and craves to make silly and over-power, does that make anet incompetent to balance the game?, not really, they try, but it's quite discouraging how mediocre the balance patches are for all the time it takes them to do it and how stupid some of the changes are, after all there are worse balanced games. I would say that they lack quality control for these balance patches, if they have any.

[Fueki.4753]

It'll leave Warrior with only being able to do DPS. And that is almost exclusively melee power DPS.

Despite many MANY ideas proposed on the forums, They have never even shown a sliver of wanting Warrior to do otherwise.

On top of that, last year they even went out of their way and turned Warrior's best supporting capabilities into heavily underperforming generic boon application.

Given all that and Warrior not even being the top DPS should tell enough about Warrior's intended place in this game.

At this point, the fun playing it is the last viable thing Warrior has left.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[draxynnic.3719]

My interpretation of their caginess is that they don't want to commit to a set of elite specialisations with every mini-expansion.

 

In the hypothetical case in which that does happen, though, I think there are some professions that would definitely be winners and losers. Some professions have a wide range of capabilities and playstyles among their elite specialisations - guardian and mesmer are good examples (note that both have some elite specs, and roles within elite specs, that are a bit scuffed at the moment, but the assumption would be that balancing will continue so they will eventually be brought up). Others have not been so lucky, and have had the same roles or other themes continually repeated in their elite specs. Warrior is probably at the top of that list.

 

Seriously, love it or loathe it, the only excusable reason I could see for Bladesworn being the third DPS-oriented spec out of three would be that they are planning to release a warrior support spec, but that they wanted to make sure they got the iaijutsu theme in the Asian-themed expansion. It'd be unforgivable to make that decision if there was a reasonable expectation that Guild Wars 2 would continue active development but that it would be the last elite specialisation that warrior ever receives.

[eXruina.4956]

i've already given up since last june. just making the most out of it now. balance is hopeless and they've killed the only thing i truly enjoyed about wvw. 🤣 rip solo roaming. 🥺😓

 

i'll probably devolve into an open world pve'er hunting down skritt for their shinies. 🤩✨

 

hope they at least spend time developing a class/race change token. or make map exploration account wide. just some stuff at the top of my wishlist. 🤔

 

i mean they could always make gift of exploration purchasable after completing map exploration once. 😁

[cryorion.9532]

It would be reasonable to release another set of elite specs in like 2-3 years from now if things go according to their plan. Nothing stops them from doing a bit bigger mini-expansion with elite specs when they are ready to do that and it's meaningful for the game.

Right now, do we really need/want new elite specs or we would rather have properly balanced professions with all their current especs, including new builds and variations?

In my opinion, having more options in already existing specializations, like greatsword tactics spellbreaker and defense hammer spellbreaker is good enough. If they continue making nice variations for each specialization like this, we could have plenty of builds to choose from and have fun with before new especs are released.

On the other side, probably a bit naive to expect "Anet's awakening", it is very possible we are experiencing another It's a saga, not a season moment.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Personally, I can only hope more skills are reviewed and are ideally updated, in order to start having more fun adn variety in competetive play.

My personal favourite rn is getting Shattering Blow to become a Hammer Shock on steroids.

[eXruina.4956]

11 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Personally, I can only hope more skills are reviewed and are ideally updated, in order to start having more fun adn variety in competetive play.

this. ideally they polish the gameplay, address balance issues, work on fixing outdated traits and skills that piled up over the years and improve the older outdated content and game modes.

 

if they just keep adding stuff, and pile the clutter it really hurts the quality of the game.

 

as for replayability, mmorpg endgame has always either been about the fashion wars and pvp modes. i've never played an mmorpg that hasn't hit this wall.

 

i loved the implementation of living story by the way, their storytelling and delivery has improved drastically since core gw2, sad to see it go but maybe something better will take its place.

i specially loved path of fire and icebrood saga. and end of dragons was awesome, just a bit rushed probably because of the pandemic issues.

 

also might i add, i feel the horizontal progression has truly helped maintain the playerbase, people still come and go, and are really incentivised to come back when the gamestate improves or new content is released.

 

overall some balance and gameplay issues aside, they have done a truly great job maintaining this game over the years. i'd call it the best and most long lived mmorpg experience i've had and still having, and i play many mmorpgs.

 

i hope the new directions maintains and improves in keeping this a very great game. 💕

[Raykael.2734]

I don't know where it leaves the warrior, but I know where it leaves me as a warrior player: uninstalling the game for good. 

 

I would understand if they would say that elite specs will arrive later, but like this? No thanks, I'm done

[Jzaku.9765]

Unfortunately, Anet has just confirmed that there will be no future Elite Specs coming with future expansions. 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/studio-update-spring-2023/

Quote

"Q: The February Studio Update said that future expansions would include “combat features” and didn’t mention elite specializations at all. What does that mean?

In the current design and implementation of elite specializations, we feel that with every new expansion there’s been increasingly limited “design space” left to add new and differentiated roles for each profession. In other words, most of the playstyles that we’d like to see supported for each profession already exist or should exist within their existing elite specialization options.

With our next expansion, our goal is to further augment the combat options for each profession by adding new tools to their arsenal and by lifting constraints that will unlock an unprecedented number of playstyle customization options—while keeping the feel of Guild Wars 2 combat true to its origins. Theorycrafters are going to be very busy."

Basically, the worst has come to pass. I truly have 0 faith that any of our existing Elite specs can be retrofitted to be a competitive PVE defensive Support, nor that Anet has much incentive to do so. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

While I find some of their language insulting given that they've given warrior 3 dps specs in a row and have done nothing to branch out into support I do find this paragraph interesting:

"With our next expansion, our goal is to further augment the combat options for each profession by adding new tools to their arsenal and by lifting constraints that will unlock an unprecedented number of playstyle customization options—while keeping the feel of Guild Wars 2 combat true to its origins. Theorycrafters are going to be very busy."

So perhaps there will be something for those of us that want a more fleshed out support role for warrior.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Here is another batch of statements that gives me hope:

• "Improving the feeling of moment-to-moment gameplay for many boon support builds. We want these builds to have more flexibility in their utility skill choice, and not be required to press a particular utility type on cooldown to provide quickness or alacrity."
  • So... Banners will get severe CD reduction or over the top boon uptime. Ditto possibly for Warhorn?
• "Introducing alternate playstyles for some specializations, including quickness-support deadeye and damage builds for druid and tempest."
  • Like... reworking the middle line of traits from Spellbreaker to give boons in an AoE and turning it into the support espec?
• "Tuning up some underutilized weapons and solidifying their roles within their professions. For example, we’re looking at further defining ranger sword as a mobile, power damage weapon."
  • See this list from Warrior:
    • MH Sword
    • OH Sword
    • MH Mace
    • OH Mace
    • Rifle

I wonder if that "lifting constraints" bit from the previous post could mean opening up MH/OH for every weapon or allowing espec weapons while not taking the elite spec? Way too much copium there, but that would open up a lot of unprecedented number of playstyle customization options.

 

[Fueki.4753]

22 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I wonder if that "lifting constraints" bit from the previous post could mean opening up MH/OH for every weapon or allowing espec weapons while not taking the elite spec? Way too much copium there, but that would open up a lot of unprecedented number of playstyle customization options.

This sounds like Weapons and/or Utility skills from the elite specializations become usable by the entire profession.

Just watch every other Necromancer running around with Pistol and Torch, if this happens. Arenanet would also need to introduce Dual Attunement skills for Elementalist's Hammer.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

16 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

This sounds like Weapons and/or Utility skills from the elite specializations become usable by the entire profession.

Just watch every other Necromancer running around with Pistol and Torch, if this happens. Arenanet would also need to introduce Dual Attunement skills for Elementalist's Hammer.

Part of me is wanting them also to bring OH weapons than can be used in the MH (things like Pistol) into the MH slot and vice versa.

Might actually get MH Pistol to use with Warhorn. Pure copium of course but it is in line with what they said.

Even if it is just opening up the elite spec weapons for general use that will still be very nice. Would they just be for Core? Could I use MH dagger with Berserker? What Primal Burst would it have?

[Kalthea.4326]

Honestly, with the poor state of Warrior, the lack of diverse skill choices, no options for gameplay changes since every e-spec is so heavily melee focused, and the miserable meta of boon application, Warrior is just kind of dead in the water. Sure, you can paddle with your hands and scoot closer to your destination, but everyone else has a functional engine and can easily outplay you on all fronts.

 

Hopefully ANET takes an extremely long and thoughtful look at how to approach Warriors.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

We NEEEEED a rework for Tactics now. No other way around.

 

No more Elite Specs kittens Warrior MASSIVLY !                         

Edited May 1, 2023 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

Hopefully ANET takes an extremely long and thoughtful look at how to approach Warriors.

With a medium rare steak held at arm's length while reciting lyrics to their favorite Manowar song.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

"In other words, most of the playstyles that we’d like to see supported for each profession already exist or should exist within their existing elite specialization options."

🤣

No, seriously,

In PvE, the imbalance in the variety of roles the various professions can fill is to great to take such words seriously.

In WvW, boon hate hardly have any serious competition with necromancer dominating this role since the vanilla game.

In PvP, for most players, no new e-spec basically mean no new content.

 

Sure, they can tweak the existing e-specs to somewhat alleviate PvE and maybe WvW's issue but sPvP player are gonna have a hard time biting this bullet.

[Infusion.7149]

Heal warrior needs help and I stated as such in the main response thread for the Spring 2023 studio update.

Since warrior is only able to provide quickness and not alacrity for the foreesable future due to core warrior having party quickness, without much other support aspects it would be a priority for Arenanet for warrior to be the defacto quickness spec at least on par with quickness StM chrono (the original quickness spec at HoT).

(In case anyone missed it, the update stated there are no new elite specs.)

Edited May 1, 2023 by Infusion.7149
add note on no new elite specs , see https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/studio-update-spring-2023/

[Dadnir.5038]

19 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

In case anyone missed it, the update stated there are no new elite specs.

It state that they think that "most of the playstyles that they would like to see supported for each profession already exist or should exist within their existing elite specialization".

It can indeed be interpreted as them saying that there won't be any new elite specs in the futur but the fact is that they don't say it literally, give them the room necessary to back down.

The May 2 patch note also suggest that they aren't against providing new options to their existing e-specs since they "leak" their intent to provide deadeye with the ability to share quickness. So, an excessively optimist person might think that there is actually hope for the professions that aren't guardian to, one day, somehow be able to be able to have competitive builds for all 4 team roles (healer, dps, quick and alac).

[cyberzombie.7348]

Well EoD didn't even have e-spec runes like the last two expansions so I don't expect any more specs rolling out any time. 

Spellbreaker was warrior's first and only elite spec that legitimately expanded on what a warrior could do, but we all know what happened with that.

Bladesworn still feels like a concept spec that could be way more than just weeb larp'ing. Perhaps if they made it a bit more tech-based with pistol as mainhand, armament skills more effective at being area denial, f1/2 skills having hybrid damage , and explosions being an integral mechanic. Then it would be less of a one-trick-pony. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by cyberzombie.7348

[Vancho.8750]

On 5/1/2023 at 8:05 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Here is another batch of statements that gives me hope:

• "Improving the feeling of moment-to-moment gameplay for many boon support builds. We want these builds to have more flexibility in their utility skill choice, and not be required to press a particular utility type on cooldown to provide quickness or alacrity."
  • So... Banners will get severe CD reduction or over the top boon uptime. Ditto possibly for Warhorn?
• "Introducing alternate playstyles for some specializations, including quickness-support deadeye and damage builds for druid and tempest."
  • Like... reworking the middle line of traits from Spellbreaker to give boons in an AoE and turning it into the support espec?
• "Tuning up some underutilized weapons and solidifying their roles within their professions. For example, we’re looking at further defining ranger sword as a mobile, power damage weapon."
  • See this list from Warrior:
    • MH Sword
    • OH Sword
    • MH Mace
    • OH Mace
    • Rifle

I wonder if that "lifting constraints" bit from the previous post could mean opening up MH/OH for every weapon or allowing espec weapons while not taking the elite spec? Way too much copium there, but that would open up a lot of unprecedented number of playstyle customization options.

 

They could add some traits that change abilities like on Mechanist spellbreaker can become Tank healer thing based on the Full counter and other thing of jigs, maybe traits change dagger skills or some kitten too. Kinda Dream about Spear kit for the elite skill that has the current WoD as 5 skill.
Berserker could take the Quickness role somehow from core like Harbinger but less boring, maybe on burst it gives quickens with some trait and every time you give out Quickness it uses the Wild Blow Bear animation but lingers for little bit longer so you could see it.

Another option is giving core "elite" spec where when you slot one of the core traitlines in the elite slot you get extra skills on the bar, if get boring you slot tactics and you get 2 shouts on the special F keys next to the burst or some kitten.

Also they will backtrack on the no Elite specs when they can't sell the "mini expansions' at some point, cause by the looks of it 2/3 of the game ain't getting kitten and they will be needing  selling points, maybe after the second one they will bend.

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

They could add some traits that change abilities like on Mechanist spellbreaker can become Tank healer thing based on the Full counter and other thing of jigs, maybe traits change dagger skills or some kitten too. Kinda Dream about Spear kit for the elite skill that has the current WoD as 5 skill.
Berserker could take the Quickness role somehow from core like Harbinger but less boring, maybe on burst it gives quickens with some trait and every time you give out Quickness it uses the Wild Blow Bear animation but lingers for little bit longer so you could see it.

Another option is giving core "elite" spec where when you slot one of the core traitlines in the elite slot you get extra skills on the bar, if get boring you slot tactics and you get 2 shouts on the special F keys next to the burst or some kitten.

Also they will backtrack on the no Elite specs when they can't sell the "mini expansions' at some point, cause by the looks of it 2/3 of the game ain't getting kitten and they will be needing  selling points, maybe after the second one they will bend.

Aye, mechanic changing traits on spell could work really well. It’s current preferred function (duelist) can be maintained while opening new avenues. Out of all the Warrior specs it has the most flexibility for using traits to significantly change gameplay functions of its mechanic imo. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I just don't understand why the Warrior elite specialisations are the strangest of all of them.

 

Almost all elite specs from the other classes in the game have three separate themes in their traitlines, which allow them to perform power damage, condition damage and supportive roles. Yes, some classes are better at some roles than others (for example, Harbinger does much better as condi than power, compared to Reaper), but Warrior is the only class which just has "damage, damage, and more damage and maybe some tanking" in literally every traitline its elite specs offer.

 

The worst part is, the Core traitlines are mostly exactly the same, meaning the elites offer basically nothing over Core Warrior besides more damage and slightly more utility.

 

At the very least, the class needs revisions to cement Bladesworn as the top power DPS, Berserker as the top condi DPS, and for Spellbreaker to be an actual utility/support class. Pretty much the only thing its used for in PvE is boonstrip on high-level Fractals.

Edited May 2, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Infusion.7149]

If the barrier (Unshakable mountain) on bladesworn was shared it could be a mediocre PvE healer or maybe if Immortal Dragon shared its heal. Across the board the biggest improvement would be shared barrier on mainhand mace in PvE along with a halving of Soldiers Comfort/Marching Orders cooldowns. Spellbreaker was not really relevant outside of fractals and Q1 raid , maybe Vale Guardian or Xera as well. It does not have the tools to become a PvE support outside of might application and maybe any future sharing of the protection on Guard Counter.

It is quite clear Berserker is meant to be predominantly a condi spec, with the meager improvements to power damage recently put in.