Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Hello Commanders, quit putting people in line 1 and make subgroups! Holy Jesus!


Kal Durak.2830

Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

This is completely inaccurate. 

If anything Arcdps allowed certain classes and builds to prove that they were indeed viable, or at least the disparity was negligible.  Because at the end of the day, people care about what works, not what should work on paper.

We literally play a game where people gatekeep with the dumbest stuff possible, like Achievenment points, so accusing of arcdps of anything is pretty absurd. Now I will say some people are dumb and don't know what numbers mean. For example, they may chide their melees for having low dps when the real reason is they pirate ship at 1600 range and so nobody can do their jobs, but this is not a group you want to join anyways.

Yes in theory meta classes should always outperform but if you can outplay people that badly without full boons and such then it is basically impossible for you to not find a group.

Now what is true is that when someone sees this rando pug ranger, it is more likely that they are some drooler bow 1 spammer, as opposed to some gigachad unkillable immob boon stance  king that spins for hundreds of thousands of damage. There is no way people would assume the later, except for this  secret art (Meta players don't want to let you know this!)

You could, in fact, talk to people. If you get yourself acquainted with these squads and have multiple classes at your disposal and are not inflexible, then maybe they would let you get away with more.

  • Like 4
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/21/2023 at 7:25 PM, MarzAttakz.9608 said:

The onus is on the commander for sure and if you're running boon ball with proper squad builds then it makes absolute sense to do so.

On the other hand if you're clouding or commanding pugs there's very little value in doing so, especially when you only have enough firebrands for two sub-groups.

Personally I prefer sub-groups but it is what it is.

ArcDps to a degree can be seen as elitist. However having oversight on what is happening within the squad is useful - it's what you do with the information that matters most. For example, the recent influx of newer players running bad builds is very noticable in both Arc logs and fight results. And by bad I don't mean not running zerg builds, I mean running something they cannot DPS or survive with. For those of us aware of this it tells us we have a serious job to do to improve as a community. It may be different on your server, but ours is full, without a link and it's a problem we have to solve internally ourselves.

In particular, total damage and total cleanses. DPS is pretty much irrelevant because everyone isn't standing on a golem, smacking it.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, MysteryDude.1572 said:

I play core support ele and I out cleanse tempests....

Then the Tempests you compare against are just bad. Just the shouts with trooper rune are enough to push you over, put frost aura from Dagger and overload on top and you will will absolutely outcleanse everything while still keeping up with healing. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/22/2023 at 12:26 AM, kash.9213 said:

1. Maybe that holds in other game modes but in WvW if someone can make a nice build work then they know what they're doing and they have a reason they roll with it, so take that player anyway and make sure they're getting group buffs. If they don't know what they're doing their build wont work. 

2. Rangers and thieves serve the theme for zerging by killing loads of people trying to zerg. Like half of this forum is the fall out of that fact. If you have Leaps to stagger out, even a Deadeye with moderate stats can hang with the zerg. Specter is awesome and at home in blob fights, put them on driver or support security, but if you're gonig to try to put them in the back of the squad bus with another thief and ranger, just boot them so they can find a legit group to help. 

If you're short on slots though, definitely take whatever over any thief at least. At that point you got the numbers to really ride off the meta builds. I don't feel my thief's mitigation or kill power change much in group and I usually feel like I get more done out of group because of the trajectory of Control skills and so I'm not a dot on the map that's squireling around for the commander to stress about.

Stop meta-gaming the forum. Go scout and build way points for the mighty boon blob, filthy theef !!! 😁

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/22/2023 at 12:05 PM, Custodio.6134 said:
On 2/22/2023 at 8:34 AM, MysteryDude.1572 said:

I play core support ele and I out cleanse tempests....

Then the Tempests you compare against are just bad.

Well, that's the point that fight coms fail to figure out since release. Great theory craft build is just kitten in the hands of a person who cannot handle it.

 

Basic knowledge in PvP team games in general. E. g. glass cannons are usually not "meta", cause most people just instantly die with it. But in the hands of a dedicated tryhard it absolutely rocks. Doesn't make it "meta" though. 🙂

 

Maybe that's the reason why transfering fight guild meta over to public zergs with mainly casual players fails since 2012 😏

 

I mean when a tactic only works when everyone is on voice, plays a facilitated "meta" build, moves perfectly synchronized, and every sub group has to have a FB, then maybe this tactic is just not suitable for public zergs 😚

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2023 at 2:33 PM, enkidu.5937 said:

Well, that's the point that fight coms fail to figure out since release. Great theory craft build is just kitten in the hands of a person who cannot handle it.

 

Basic knowledge in PvP team games in general. E. g. glass cannons are usually not "meta", cause most people just instantly die with it. But in the hands of a dedicated tryhard it absolutely rocks. Doesn't make it "meta" though. 🙂

 

Maybe that's the reason why transfering fight guild meta over to public zergs with mainly casual players fails since 2012 😏

 

I mean when a tactic only works when everyone is on voice, plays a facilitated "meta" build, moves perfectly synchronized, and every sub group has to have a FB, then maybe this tactic is just not suitable for public zergs 😚

 

Coordination is the wrong strat for pub groups true. Pugs don't even know how to coordinate, that's why they're pugs. "play so terribly you confuse the enemy" is prob the correct way for pubs to play. 

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mixes.7164 said:

Coordination is the wrong strat for pub groups true. Pugs don't even know how to coordinate, that's why they're pugs. "play so terribly you confuse the enemy" is prob the correct way for pubs to play. 

So imagine that there are clouds out there that coordinate without voice chat. Its real and efficient, at least in specific situations. And now imagine that there are great coms out there that coordinate a cloud. It's mind blowing 😚

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/21/2023 at 3:01 PM, Custodio.6134 said:

Well, ranger is still to be determined, but personal opinion: Druid still gets outperformed by scrapper, tempest and vindicator for support because of all the other utility those 3 bring on the table. 

DPS-ranger literally just doesn´t work mechanically just because of how cleave-damage/longbow works against large groups (or rather, how bad it works for rangers compared to scourge/herald/scrapper). One reflect basically disables longbow-ranger, going melee is very risky and while some niece-builds CAN work (immobbeas for example), the skill-level required is just too high. And it cannot even compete against something like DPS-Scrapper, that is 10x easier to play, while additionally lacking synergizing effects that massively amplify effectivity of groups. 

For thieves this is almost the same. With good skill you can make a niece-build work, but the benefit is just not worth than just taking a different class essentially. 

TL:DR: in most cases, everything those classes can do, and that would theoretically work in such a setup, can also be done by a different class, but better. 

Important here: This does NOT mean Ranger or Thief are generally bad classes in WvW. They just dont serve the particular theme for zerging. Their strengths lie in roaming and smaller groups and both can completely dominate there. It´s just that they´re not designed or balanced to work as good as other classes in zerging. 

  

You basically just stated everything that I've heard from commanders for the last six fricken years.  Now, why is that a problem?  Arenanet has had roughly 10 years to refine the Classes and Specializations to even them out.  You're saying, along with a majority of commanders that the class is useless for Zerg groups.  Literally.  You and them are saying that those classes have absolutely no use as part of the group, and you and others have stated that those that play that class, should reroll another class to be accepted into the zerg group.  Obviously if the class can be useful in a Zerg, then that class can also be useful roaming.  Except for a couple of classes which are just completely useless to "Groups" larger than a roaming squad.

 

Did you know, I get asked, why I troll groups, by playing Ranger?  I don't troll. I just prefer the class is all.  Every once in a while I go Revenant, because it's the only other class I like in WvW.  But I main Ranger in WvW, because I find it fun.

 

So, here's the kicker.  I can play in a zerg, as long as I play on a class that I do not find fun.  My enjoyment of my class should be secondary to helping the team win, by playing a meta-class only, and to be more readily acceptable to group play.  And for some reason after ten whole years, Arenanet still doesn't see the most extreme uselessness of the class as a Meta class in WvW.  You believe their only useful option in WvW is roaming.  That's it.  Commanders believe that their only useful as Scouts at locations, or roaming cappers.  That's it.  Arenanet considers them....I wish I knew.  I really wish I knew.  But apparently Ranger's are just not a Meta class that Anet can even figure out how to create, without it becoming too Op.  

 

Do you have any idea how many of my Ranger skills have been neutered and rendered ineffective due to those same skills being too Over Powered.  Op.  Nothing wrong with the class I enjoy.  I can easily live as long or longer in Zerg play, with a few skills that do synergize with my squad.  But it's hard when your class has been repeatedly, stripped of it's more useful abilities.

 

I'll tell you what I want.  Rambo Exploding TIpped arrows, that explode with every arrow from Rapid Fire.  I would like to see my Healing Spring, follow me as I move.  That way, that particular skill isn't seen as a Ranger being "selfish" for just only healing himself.  A moving Healing AoE well would be GREAT, and useful to a zerg, wouldn't you agree?  I would love to be able to use Whirling Axe, without being ROOTED to the spot, where I'm ran over while my zerg buddies are still moving.

 

But I'm sorry.  Arenanet sees these are things that will "Break" the ranger and is too overpowered.

 

My inability to meet my team's expectations, of what you consider Meta, I find more of an annoyance. I find Arenanets inability to make my class Meta as a part of a Zerg group, a complete hindrance to my own enjoyment of the game.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, KeyOrion.9506 said:

You're saying, along with a majority of commanders that the class is useless for Zerg groups.

no, i did not say that. 

I said: 
 

Quote

some niece-builds CAN work (immobbeas for example), the skill-level required is just too high.

Quote

For thieves this is almost the same. With good skill you can make a niece-build work, but the benefit is just not worth than just taking a different class essentially. 

Quote

TL:DR: in most cases, everything those classes can do, and that would theoretically work in such a setup, can also be done by a different class, but better. 

I did NOT say that the entire class is useless. I said that pretty much every other class that has the same tasks, will perform better (WAY better)

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/20/2023 at 8:38 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Being useful helps too.

Many of these squads run arcdps so if you're placing decently for.... something, you will get placed eventually. Build doesn't matter; results do.  If they're refusing to give their top 5 dps a proper spot, it's their loss really.

I had a friend that rarely played WvW but always brought the damage, so he never had much trouble finding a spot.

Alternatively, you can just bring some friends in the squad and have your own comp.


I think it’s funny when people talk about dps.  My Untamed Ranger is always in the top 10 and much of the time in the top 5 five DPS.  But, it’s a Ranger and the stigma exists.   I often either stay in group 1 or get put into a group by myself or maybe with some other “useless” folks.   
 

It doesn’t bother me at all.  I know how to stay on tag and use the heals they put out.  The grouping is nice I suppose but I don’t really see any difference in my survival whether I’m in a group with support or by myself glued to the tag…. and I survive very well. 🙂

Edited by Some Call Me Tim.2319
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh com on guys and girls, just switch to useful zerker scourge. Its performing great in big battles. Just citing metabattle.com here:

Surviving

  • This build has moderate passive defense 🤡
  • This build has no mobility skill access 👀
  • This builds has low active defenses 🤣

 

Its so easy to learn and play. I can write you a quick guide:

 

Defense / Survival:

1 dodge

2 dodge

3 weapon swap

4 dodge

thats it

 

now offense /damage:

you are in downstate, so you have 4 skills

just spam them for the next 10 secs or so

respawn

enjoy 😚

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, KeyOrion.9506 said:

  

You basically just stated everything that I've heard from commanders for the last six fricken years.

<snip>

My inability to meet my team's expectations, of what you consider Meta, I find more of an annoyance. I find Arenanets inability to make my class Meta as a part of a Zerg group, a complete hindrance to my own enjoyment of the game.  

Support Druid for zerging is rated 5 on Metabattle and viable next to Support Scrapper and Vindicator.  A guild I run with also uses druid in their comp.  It's not the first time in the 6 years that druid has been in zerg comps either.

Maybe you need to step back a moment?

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Some Call Me Tim.2319 said:


I think it’s funny when people talk about dps.  My Untamed Ranger is always in the top 10 and much of the time in the top 5 five DPS.  But, it’s a Ranger and the stigma exists.   I often either stay in group 1 or get put into a group by myself or maybe with some other “useless” folks.   
 

It doesn’t bother me at all.  I know how to stay on tag and use the heals they put out.  The grouping is nice I suppose but I don’t really see any difference in my survival whether I’m in a group with support or by myself glued to the tag…. and I survive very well. 🙂

Yea, like I said in my first post, it's very much about the player and the results they bring are far more meaningful than ancedotes I think. I don't care about your class symbol; I care about what you do. But yes you have to jump over another hurdle and tbh DPS is such a generic role that it is silly to min-max in pug situations.  I think that at least starting people in party 1 at least as willing to listen to their case than just flat out rejecting people.

Although as most party comps are for boons and heals, if you supply your own, you don't really have a problem with not being placed in a party. And if you bring friends you just need your own party.

There's also so much excessive cleanses/healing these days that yes, it's very possible to sustain just by jumping on top of the allied tag even not being in squad, assuming your build isn't trash and melts in 2s.

Most people that complain need the tag more than the tag needs them. This is always a losing struggle, because you will be subject to the whims of any tag.   You will always be miserable unless you join a guild or have enough friends to play with. No amount of screeching will make them want to play with you or me. Some groups don't even want to run with pugs, meta classes or not. Isn't that the same thing?

If you're good enough, you can usually make this more even, and naturally the tag will eventually have to make concessions, or be less efficient. Or sometimes just flat out die without your help.

Most of the time I'm the one rejecting squad invites, but I don't need to be in their squad to help anyways so it's fine either way. This isn't a fractal or raid where they can literally ban you because you aren't running the right things.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Yea, like I said in my first post, it's very much about the player and the results they bring are far more meaningful than ancedotes I think. I don't care about your class symbol; I care about what you do. But yes you have to jump over another hurdle and tbh DPS is such a generic role that it is silly to min-max in pug situations.  I think that at least starting people in party 1 at least as willing to listen to their case than just flat out rejecting people.

Although as most party comps are for boons and heals, if you supply your own, you don't really have a problem with not being placed in a party. And if you bring friends you just need your own party.

There's also so much excessive cleanses/healing these days that yes, it's very possible to sustain just by jumping on top of the allied tag even not being in squad, assuming your build isn't trash and melts in 2s.

Most people that complain need the tag more than the tag needs them. This is always a losing struggle, because you will be subject to the whims of any tag.   You will always be miserable unless you join a guild or have enough friends to play with. No amount of screeching will make them want to play with you or me. Some groups don't even want to run with pugs, meta classes or not. Isn't that the same thing?

If you're good enough, you can usually make this more even, and naturally the tag will eventually have to make concessions, or be less efficient. Or sometimes just flat out die without your help.

Most of the time I'm the one rejecting squad invites, but I don't need to be in their squad to help anyways so it's fine either way. This isn't a fractal or raid where they can literally ban you because you aren't running the right things.


Right!  My main purpose in joining a tag is more about me having an easier time seeing where we are.  Being color blind I find it easier to track the tag when I’m in the squad because the tag actually has a bit of a glow to it when you hover over it or any other tag on the map.  
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Some Call Me Tim.2319 said:


Right!  My main purpose in joining a tag is more about me having an easier time seeing where we are.  Being color blind I find it easier to track the tag when I’m in the squad because the tag actually has a bit of a glow to it when you hover over it or any other tag on the map.  
 

 

It'd help a lot more if there were more color options for tags. You should be able to dye your tags. Nothing is more annoying than someone picking the red one and disappearing into the sea of red, lol. Yea I know people like to pick purple or pink but sometimes you have multiple tags and blue/red is really no go.

Some people like the symbols, others really don't. But in general the game could use more visibility options. Heck, even the camera angles get wonky in some places.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, KeyOrion.9506 said:

My enjoyment of my class should be secondary to helping the team win, by playing a meta-class only, and to be more readily acceptable to group play.  And for some reason after ten whole years, Arenanet still doesn't see the most extreme uselessness of the class as a Meta class in WvW.  You believe their only useful option in WvW is roaming.

/.../

But I'm sorry.  Arenanet sees these are things that will "Break" the ranger and is too overpowered.

/.../

My inability to meet my team's expectations, of what you consider Meta, I find more of an annoyance. I find Arenanets inability to make my class Meta as a part of a Zerg group, a complete hindrance to my own enjoyment of the game.  

I'll hijack your post to make my comment, however I'd say this is more a general commentary on the thread as a whole than a direct response to you.

It seems like people here are having a very hard time separating their ideas of a meta, viability, what's good and performance from one another. A guess is that this is becomming more pervasive as old WvW-groups step back from curating meta sites and notions from PvE (rotations, DPS etc.) step in to fill that space. That is my observation of it for now at least.

What alot of people seem to miss is that a meta is still built around a party. The party has 5 spots. The meta is made up by what builds best (or most easily, normally) fill those spots. Those builds also fill specific roles for those spots and fills a specific synergy. Ultimately, there are 5 spots and 9 classes. ArenaNet are unlikely to ever balance the game so perfectly that things are equal enough to become meta, as we players seek to establish and define a meta for 5 spots.

Everything past that is about viability, being what some people call off-meta (accepted without being regarded as the best) either in filling one of those roles (viable as a side grade in/to the meta) or in creating other roles (other viable roles beside the meta). While the meta rarely comprises more than 5 classes, all 9 classes tend to find viability. Either in what a commander will arrange or beside what the commander arranges. That is in the same content (eg., large, not just small).

Examples/Expanded:

Spoiler

The roles that make up the meta are both rather simple and rather nuanced at the same time. They are usually comprised of what provides the most defense against hard CC (1), the most defense against soft CC (2), the best 1200r spike call (3), the best 900r- push call (4) and group-wide utilities to facilitate those calls (5). The idea that this somehow is based on rotations, DPS or performance on meters is a recent post-hoc construction that I believe come from people who are not involved with creating groups and is rather an interpretation of that if you are doing something viable, are good enough or associated enough with the lead you tend to get away with far more liberties than other players. Most tags that I know let me get away with alot of things in most situations. They simply trust me to perform, but that does not make what I do "meta".

A good example of this is the Revenant, especially the Herald during its tenure in the meta. There are plenty of extra things to it. It provided the most reliable output of fury. The roads and dwarf pops it provided could be incredibly useful. The performance of double swords in melee was quite impressive and a good Revenant knew how to effectively land a number of powerful combinations. However, its role was largely maintained by the Phase Smash. That was the foundation of any spike call. So while the Herald was not just a Phase Smash, had ArenaNet outright deleted that lone ability, the Herald would likely have completely lost its role as the primary spiker (4). Something like a Weaver always had competetive options to do damage at the same distances but it was all about that combination of reliability to execute the tatic and additional utility that fed into the synergy with the rest of the roles that kept one thing in meta and the other viable both as an alternative in the role and as an alternative role.

That is the same situation that faces eg., Thieves and Rangers now. The Druid can be an alternative in a role (2) but excels as an alternative role. I read Kash's comment about how Spectres can be used in creative ways, as specialist support for tags (anti-pin-sniping etc.). Me, I play mine more like a Druid: Where I excel as a ranged support, meeting the needs of specialised ranged players, where the same amounts of damage soaked are not expected (top-up rather than sustain pressure), where enhancing positional play (eg., Meteor setups, peels and bail-outs) is more valuable and where I excel at adding into the role that the party has by adding 5-7k bursts of unreflectable S/P3's and Shroud 2's (into eg., various 2-3 attacks).

That also goes to the middle qoute I cited from Key there. Yes, if we keep overlooking what some classes excel at, only to buff them at what other classes excel at, then they will eventually become overpowered, especially when/as more people figure out what they do indeed excel at. A class like the Elementalist run high risk of ending up there right now for example. It generally did well enough to maintain viable roles before the most recent buffs. People overlooked what it excelled at. It got broad sweeping buffs into things other classes excelled at and once players catch-on and ArenaNet are tasked to rectify that they risk picking the class apart. A recent major loser in the balance takes is the Engineer. It has little of anything left now. There are few creative viable things to fall back on after being dethroned from the meta. It can't do what the Druid does, well enough, while Druid does "Scrapper" quite well now yet both are overshadowed by Vindicators (and Tempests) for the 2nd meta role, ie., Support 2.

So while some tags may struggle filling support spots and will be happy to see your Druid, or be forgiving even when there is no urgent need for it, others may ask you if you have a heal Vindi or will have a more narrow expectation of the meta to begin with.

You solve those problems as any problem, befriend people and prove yourself to people. Either the people who lead existing groups or people you can create new groups with (your own party etc.).

 

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

What alot of people seem to miss is that a meta is still built around a party. The party has 5 spots. The meta is made up by what builds best (or most easily, normally) fill those spots. Those builds also fill specific roles for those spots and fills a specific synergy. Ultimately, there are 5 spots and 9 classes. ArenaNet are unlikely to ever balance the game so perfectly that things are equal enough to become meta, as we players seek to establish and define a meta for 5 spots.

But when was the last time you saw a 50 man commander issue orders to 5 man self-sustaining parties that could perform individual tasks for themselves with maximum effiency? 

Last I checked everyone just needed to stack on commander.

E v e r y o n e .

😛

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...