Benchmarks Are In Post Patch...

[Sensations.9507]

Spoiler Alert!  Condi Scourge and Power Reaper are doing less dps than quickness/alac support dps...  Sad day to be necromancers.  If scourge is not buffed dps wise up to 40k next patch for pure dps build they need to add alac or something to the spec.

 

As for reaper I really dont know what to do for you poor folks.  Some want damage and some want shroud to not get recked by damage.  Something needs to change for necromancer.  Every other spec in the game is has a spec doing ~40k dps or more.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Sensations.9507

[soul.9651]

Yeah sure 40k for fully ranged spec with ton of utility, keep dreaming, not to mention the low skill floor it has

Edited February 21, 2023 by soul.9651

[Sobx.1758]

16 hours ago, Sensations.9507 said:

Something needs to change for necromancer.  Every other spec in the game is has a spec doing ~40k dps or more.

Harbinger has ~40k benchmark, so even if that complaint made any sense in the first place (but I don't think it does), necro still isn't some outlier.

 

e: Yeah, yeah, be confused about facts all you want because you want to leverage buffs no matter what. OP's reasoning is still false 🤷‍♂️ 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[sdaugherty.1984]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Harbinger has ~40k benchmark, so even if that complaint made any sense in the first place (but I don't think it does), necro still isn't some outlier.

LOL..... Have you tried to play a Necro in WvW lately?  It doesn't sound like it...

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Any suggestion that will fix necro dps in a group setting will be confused face into oblivion, while people will still complain about harbringer having 9 useful traits and want some to be turned into meme traits like augury of death and sand savant. At this point anet is playing minesweeper with necro traits and weapons to avoid making them good, and this board with applaud them for it like they did for the death perception change that lower dps by 6%.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, sdaugherty.1984 said:

LOL..... Have you tried to play a Necro in WvW lately?  It doesn't sound like it...

OP complains about benchmarks and you're hopping out with "wvw necro lately"? You can "LOL" all you want, but you've clearly missed what this thread -or the post you've quoted- is about. Re-read and try staying on topic this time.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, Sensations.9507 said:

Spoiler Alert!  Condi Scourge and Power Reaper are doing less dps than quickness/alac support dps...  Sad day to be necromancers.  If scourge is not buffed dps wise up to 40k next patch for pure dps build they need to add alac or something to the spec.

 

As for reaper I really dont know what to do for you poor folks.  Some want damage and some want shroud to not get recked by damage.  Something needs to change for necromancer.  Every other spec in the game is has a spec doing ~40k dps or more.

Harb and reaper need help. Reaper needs mostly dps while harb has just some weird jank interactions which makes it annoying to play. Get rid of the self condis, they get cleansed instantly on some bosses with fb purging flames, or lightfield finishers or anything else. Qharb dps would be fine if qfb would not do 37k+.

Scourge on the other hand is fine for what it does. We had high scourge dps in the past and it was way worse than rifle mech. It is just too braindead to play. It has 0 depth. Everyone can do 90%-95% bench on it without even trying. While being fully ranged, while spaming barrier and condi cleanse, while having extremely high health, dmg reduction and a free utility slot.

Buff reaper dps, help harb a little but no scourge dps buffs please. We had that a year ago. it was garbage.

[soul.9651]

4 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Harb and reaper need help. Reaper needs mostly dps while harb has just some weird jank interactions which makes it annoying to play. Get rid of the self condis, they get cleansed instantly on some bosses with fb purging flames, or lightfield finishers or anything else. Qharb dps would be fine if qfb would not do 37k+.

Scourge on the other hand is fine for what it does. We had high scourge dps in the past and it was way worse than rifle mech. It is just too braindead to play. It has 0 depth. Everyone can do 90%-95% bench on it without even trying. While being fully ranged, while spaming barrier and condi cleanse, while having extremely high health, dmg reduction and a free utility slot.

Buff reaper dps, help harb a little but no scourge dps buffs please. We had that a year ago. it was garbage.

I can agree on this, they can give reaper few more k to reach that 38k bench, but big NO for scourge stacking coming back, or any game breaking buffs on that spec....

Edited February 22, 2023 by soul.9651

[teeth.3501]

Scourge's barrier output has been gutted in favor of DPS build, so stacking won't be an issue anymore. Besides, I don't see anyone stack Specters despite both dealing more damage and providing more barrier than Scourge before nerfs, hmmmm. Almost as if it's no longer a relevant argument. And please, don't say Specter isn't braindead to play - it just goes 3333333 and then 254112 in shroud, repeat and tap venoms on CD. 

Scourge deserves a higher bench, especially since Harbinger just legitimately sucks to play. I don't know a single person who said they truly enjoyed benching or playing Harb, and those forsaken few who gave it a chance have long since abandoned it. This spec needs a full-on rework at it's base level to become less annoying to play, straight up. Btw, multitude of bugs with certain skills still aren't gone for it and it went for an entire year since it's release without any meaningful changes, with a dead power build nobody asked for and trait design so shallow it makes puddles look bottomless. 

Reaper just needs honest and generous help. Let it be good at power DPS for once, it's been 8 years. E i g h t. Not once it's power DPS was actually good. 

[Nimon.7840]

5 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Harb and reaper need help. Reaper needs mostly dps while harb has just some weird jank interactions which makes it annoying to play. Get rid of the self condis, they get cleansed instantly on some bosses with fb purging flames, or lightfield finishers or anything else. Qharb dps would be fine if qfb would not do 37k+.

Scourge on the other hand is fine for what it does. We had high scourge dps in the past and it was way worse than rifle mech. It is just too braindead to play. It has 0 depth. Everyone can do 90%-95% bench on it without even trying. While being fully ranged, while spaming barrier and condi cleanse, while having extremely high health, dmg reduction and a free utility slot.

Buff reaper dps, help harb a little but no scourge dps buffs please. We had that a year ago. it was garbage.

I absolutely disagree with what you said about scourge.

Ease to play doesn't matter. There are other "braindead" builds for other classes out there.

And playing scourge really well isn't about doing the most dmg.

It's about doing that damage while providing the best support possible, which can't be achieved by just spamming everything and only placing shades on the boss.

You actually have to put some brain into it.

Having a good scourge and just having a scourge that "does 90-95% benchmark" (btw. 31k isn't even that high) is like night and day.

 

By doing the daily eod strikes I see more bad scourges (and reapers) -that do way less dps, than they should- than almost any other spec. Maybe tied with mechanists and ranger specs.

Turns out for the average player, those classes are much harder to play, than for example the SC people or hardstuck people, that are creating builds and rating the difficulty to play those builds.

 

 

[soul.9651]

15 minutes ago, teeth.3501 said:

Scourge's barrier output has been gutted in favor of DPS build, so stacking won't be an issue anymore. Besides, I don't see anyone stack Specters despite both dealing more damage and providing more barrier than Scourge before nerfs, hmmmm. Almost as if it's no longer a relevant argument. And please, don't say Specter isn't braindead to play - it just goes 3333333 and then 254112 in shroud, repeat and tap venoms on CD. 

Scourge deserves a higher bench, especially since Harbinger just legitimately sucks to play. I don't know a single person who said they truly enjoyed benching or playing Harb, and those forsaken few who gave it a chance have long since abandoned it. This spec needs a full-on rework at it's base level to become less annoying to play, straight up. Btw, multitude of bugs with certain skills still aren't gone for it and it went for an entire year since it's release without any meaningful changes, with a dead power build nobody asked for and trait design so shallow it makes puddles look bottomless. 

Reaper just needs honest and generous help. Let it be good at power DPS for once, it's been 8 years. E i g h t. Not once it's power DPS was actually good. 

I mean sure, but those 40+k benches are only balanced if that spec is pure dps, has 0 utility to provide to the group, needs some skill to pull of that rotation and scourge just isnt that at the moment.. despite barrier nerfs it still does provide those utilities to the group, free boon strip, ranged cc, its still provides some barrier and even condi cleanse..this doesnt sound like beeing a greedy dps and more like a recipe for a spec stacking. Plus the rotation is rly easy and forgiving its nowehere close to weaver or cata levels, and its a fully ranged spec which is an advantage on its own.. having all of this in mind there is no way 40k on it would be balanced, i doubt even if 38k would be..

Im not saying other overtuned specs doesnt exist since you mentioning specter, but there should be less of unbalanced stuff not more.. if specter is broken then nerf it instead of creating more balance mess and powercreep

Edited February 22, 2023 by soul.9651

[Nimon.7840]

23 hours ago, teeth.3501 said:

Scourge's barrier output has been gutted in favor of DPS build, so stacking won't be an issue anymore. Besides, I don't see anyone stack Specters despite both dealing more damage and providing more barrier than Scourge before nerfs, hmmmm. Almost as if it's no longer a relevant argument. And please, don't say Specter isn't braindead to play - it just goes 3333333 and then 254112 in shroud, repeat and tap venoms on CD. 

Scourge deserves a higher bench, especially since Harbinger just legitimately sucks to play. I don't know a single person who said they truly enjoyed benching or playing Harb, and those forsaken few who gave it a chance have long since abandoned it. This spec needs a full-on rework at it's base level to become less annoying to play, straight up. Btw, multitude of bugs with certain skills still aren't gone for it and it went for an entire year since it's release without any meaningful changes, with a dead power build nobody asked for and trait design so shallow it makes puddles look bottomless. 

Reaper just needs honest and generous help. Let it be good at power DPS for once, it's been 8 years. E i g h t. Not once it's power DPS was actually good. 

I really enjoyed harbinger, when it came out. And I played it a lot.

Which made it clear, that harbinger is one of the worst - maybe the worst designed elite specs in the game.

- Traits that are only selectable stat slots -which is extremely "lazy" trait design.

- No matter what traits/trait lines you choose, the gameplay stays the same - which makes the spec extremely lame to play, if you play it over a longer period of time.

- One of the worst quickness builds in the game, considering boon output, dps and utility.

- Dps that is only slightly above scourge, which invalidates the whole spec in my opinion. 

 

I disagree, that scourge needs a higher benchmark. Maybe it would deserve one if anet chose to rework scourge.

 

For me it feels like, anet doesn't really know, where they wanna go with Necro, or they are happy with it which would be a huge disappointment for me.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Nimon.7840

[teeth.3501]

Quote

Despite barrier nerfs it still does provide those utilities to the group, free boon strip, ranged cc, its still provides some barrier and even condi cleanse..this doesnt sound like beeing a greedy dps and more like a recipe for a spec stacking. 

Specter does all of that too, what's your point? We shouldn't have nice things because of some nebulous concept of "balance"?

There's more "broken" specs than there are underperforming ones, frankly 40k is the new norm as is evident by their balance direction, and we're the odd ones out sitting on boonDPS numbers while not providing them boons, not them. 

[soul.9651]

2 minutes ago, teeth.3501 said:

Specter does all of that too, what's your point? We shouldn't have nice things because of some nebulous concept of "balance"?

There's more "broken" specs than there are underperforming ones, frankly 40k is the new norm as is evident by their balance direction, and we're the odd ones out sitting on boonDPS numbers while not providing them boons, not them. 

My point then ask for specter nerfs instead of making more power creep in this game

[teeth.3501]

1 minute ago, soul.9651 said:

My point then ask for specter nerfs instead of making more power creep in this game

I see your point, but;

A) I don't see them doing a huge nerf sweep. It did not go over well with people last time, and on tails of announcing that they're not going to do actual expacs I can't see them even attempting to. Welcome to new mess, it's here to stay for years. Besides, seeing where we're at globally across all specs, again, it's unreasonable to say that "35k bench is fine" - no, we're the bad ones. Rest are okay and aren't getting nerfed. 

B) I just want my class to be good. Seeing just 1 build being on competitive damage numbers across the entire class is downright depressing, and that build is tied to the worst spec design in entirety of EoD, both creatively and mechanically. I'm more than happy to have Sadistic Searing reworked into an actual good DPS trait, thus giving up last bits of "free" barrier on Scourge if that means it gets to be good at damage.

[soul.9651]

1 minute ago, teeth.3501 said:

I see your point, but;

A) I don't see them doing a huge nerf sweep. It did not go over well with people last time, and on tails of announcing that they're not going to do actual expacs I can't see them even attempting to. Welcome to new mess, it's here to stay for years. Besides, seeing where we're at globally across all specs, again, it's unreasonable to say that "35k bench is fine" - no, we're the bad ones. Rest are okay and aren't getting nerfed. 

B) I just want my class to be good. Seeing just 1 build being on competitive damage numbers across the entire class is downright depressing, and that build is tied to the worst spec design in entirety of EoD, both creatively and mechanically. I'm more than happy to have Sadistic Searing reworked into an actual good DPS trait, thus giving up last bits of "free" barrier on Scourge if that means it gets to be good at damage.

I mean they do nerfs stuff eventually, they did nerf pmech for example which was the most problematic build, altho im surprised how virtuoso is untouched.. but all im saying they do nerf specs if its just too much.. 

And about the class beeing good i do know that feeling but for necro its just what happend in the past especially with scourges is why im not in favour of that story repeating itself again.. altho reaper and harbinger doesnt have the same story so for competitive dps i think those 2 could take those spots. 

[teeth.3501]

Just now, soul.9651 said:

And about the class beeing good i do know that feeling but for necro its just what happend in the past especially with scourges is why im not in favour of that story repeating itself again..

It's extremely easy to avoid.

New and Improved Sadistic Searing:
 Replaces F2 with another version of it that no longer cleanses condi but applies extra burning on use.

Result:
Scourge gives up running Desert Empowerment (so no extra barriers for stacking purposes) and loses it's ability to cleanse (though I personally find it hardly problematic, but I guess to have good things on this class we must Sacrifice™) in order to have it's 38k. A very easy change to 1 pointless trait that instantly justifies scourge existing as a DPS. 

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, sdaugherty.1984 said:

LOL..... Have you tried to play a Necro in WvW lately?  It doesn't sound like it...

Are you implying that necromancer is no longer a pilar of the WvW meta due to it's boon conversion? Or are you talking about necromancer being a poor option for roaming in WvW like it has been since release of the game in 2012?

In either case, I don't think there is truly anything new to the situation of the necromancer in WvW. Oh, well... There might be less necromancers in Zerg than there used to be in PoF when necromancers made up close to 70% of the zergs composition.

[Zaret.1450]

Is it me or some people are starting to be too blunt with their desire for overpowered buffs? 40k for all necro elites? man if that happened it would be caos, imagine immortal shrouded necros doing 40k, loosing 0 health and devastating raids, also alac on scourge... do you even imagine how broken an alac ambulance scourge would be? just give li, kp, legend armor and gold for free, its less of a hassle.

Also i said people in plural because some weeks ago someone posted what they wanted for druid to be viable... i mean druid, wich is already viable, and they wanted imfinite avatar, perma aoe stab whule in avatar... more stealth, more dmg, god damm guys you need to tone it down a bit.

If you said... dunno, get reaper to 37k and scourge to 36? then okay i guess, but 40k? man we need things to be more balanved not all broken

[Bookah pls.9352]

The hangman "first time"? meme has never been so appropriate than right now in this thread.

[Sensations.9507]

Alot of clueless comments sadly. Scourge has been gutted across the board since its "OP" phase.  Also the game is much different from the time when scourge was overtuned.  Back then there was only 1 spec doing 40k dps or higher.  So yes when scourge was doing that much damage there were no other classes to compete.  IF pure dps scourge was buffed back to 38-40k it would not even make top 5 dps specs and in the case of 38k it would not even make the top 10 in todays power creep.  Its difficulty means nothing.  Condi mechanist has a faceroll rotation doing 39-40k dps and no one bats an eye.  The fact that there are quick/alac classes doing more dps than FULL dps scourge is hilarious and that there are multiple comments defending that shows how poor of a community this game has nurtured.

 

Scourge support is not even possible in its full dps build as well.  Taking blood for actual support and rez support drops benchmark from 35k to 20k... LOLLLLL.  There is a reason no one takes it anymore unless you plan your group around having multiple scourges, because a single scourge in a group provides no barrier worth mentioning.  A 35k dps spec that can has nice condi cleanse... GG

Also jesus people talking about harbinger as if dropping to one shot territory nonstop in PVE fights with massive aoe damage constantly like that isnt a problem.  Harb is a meme.  None of the other 10 specs doing 39k plus have to hamstring themselves just to do damage.....

 

Edit:  Looks like I was wrong.  If you do less than 38k dps you wouldn't be in the top 21 dps specs not 10......  LOL 3 alac specs and 2 quickness specs doing more dps than full dps scourge.  Does scourge need 42k dps no... but can it do 38k?  No argument here says why not.

 

Edit:2 I can see we already have some confused people.  Sad.  If you dont afk in LA or take a break from meta training to do a bit of group content you will quickly see how "in demand" the extremely "OP dps/support" scourge spec is these days...

Edited February 22, 2023 by Sensations.9507

[Sensations.9507]

7 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

I mean sure, but those 40+k benches are only balanced if that spec is pure dps, has 0 utility to provide to the group, needs some skill to pull of that rotation and scourge just isnt that at the moment.. despite barrier nerfs it still does provide those utilities to the group, free boon strip, ranged cc, its still provides some barrier and even condi cleanse..this doesnt sound like beeing a greedy dps and more like a recipe for a spec stacking. Plus the rotation is rly easy and forgiving its nowehere close to weaver or cata levels, and its a fully ranged spec which is an advantage on its own.. having all of this in mind there is no way 40k on it would be balanced, i doubt even if 38k would be..

Im not saying other overtuned specs doesnt exist since you mentioning specter, but there should be less of unbalanced stuff not more.. if specter is broken then nerf it instead of creating more balance mess and powercreep

LOL most specs doing 38k plus dps right now bring more support than scourge 1k barrier............  Most bring high might/vuln uptime plus perma fury or alot of self quickness.  Firebrand has a stupid simple rotation does 40k dps, perma stab, 5 rounds of aegis, access to 6k and 8k AOE burst heals, and it can provide 12 stacks of might and perma fury.....  1k barrier obviously too much support........  For the last year or 2 now after the gutting scourge barrier in dps build is like 1k every once in a while.  What a joke.  Without blood scourge is not a real support class unless its stacked 3-5 deep.  With blood it does  zero damage.  Wake up folks. Not sure if people just comment on forums and dont actually play the game or what.  Scourge does not provide 4-5k barrier in full viper gear anymore.  It cleanses condi's yes but so do have the classes in the game.  If you havnt played scourge in group content, especially raids you probably should try it... Rude awakening incoming if you dont get insta kicked.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Sensations.9507

[soul.9651]

45 minutes ago, Sensations.9507 said:

Alot of clueless comments sadly. Scourge has been gutted across the board since its "OP" phase.  Also the game is much different from the time when scourge was overtuned.  Back then there was only 1 spec doing 40k dps or higher.  So yes when scourge was doing that much damage there were no other classes to compete.  IF pure dps scourge was buffed back to 38-40k it would not even make top 5 dps specs and in the case of 38k it would not even make the top 10 in todays power creep.  Its difficulty means nothing.  Condi mechanist has a faceroll rotation doing 39-40k dps and no one bats an eye.  The fact that there are quick/alac classes doing more dps than FULL dps scourge is hilarious and that there are multiple comments defending that shows how poor of a community this game has nurtured.

 

Scourge support is not even possible in its full dps build as well.  Taking blood for actual support and rez support drops benchmark from 35k to 20k... LOLLLLL.  There is a reason no one takes it anymore unless you plan your group around having multiple scourges, because a single scourge in a group provides no barrier worth mentioning.  A 35k dps spec that can has nice condi cleanse... GG

Also jesus people talking about harbinger as if dropping to one shot territory nonstop in PVE fights with massive aoe damage constantly like that isnt a problem.  Harb is a meme.  None of the other 10 specs doing 39k plus have to hamstring themselves just to do damage.....

 

Edit:  Looks like I was wrong.  If you do less than 38k dps you wouldn't be in the top 21 dps specs not 10......  LOL 3 alac specs and 2 quickness specs doing more dps than full dps scourge.  Does scourge need 42k dps no... but can it do 38k?  No argument here says why not.

 

Edit:2 I can see we already have some confused people.  Sad.  If you dont afk in LA or take a break from meta training to do a bit of group content you will quickly see how "in demand" the extremely "OP dps/support" scourge spec is these days...

Yeah ok, give scourge 42k bench, then listen to some random people wanting alac aswell on it and then lets just delete every single other spec and class from the game because at that point there would be absolute 0 reasons to play anything else.. what a great balance that would be, its not like we saw something similar with mechs before any nerfs or with scourges in the past aswell -.- .. broken spec stacking definetely doesnt happen in this game once its out there

[Nephalem.8921]

Starting an argument with LOL is not very convincing. It still has 1,2k barrier output per second and if stacked is enough to replace a healer. The only similar build is cvirtu which has no barrier and requires positioning for cleave.

Scourge requires no positioning at all. Also specter is purely single target with no cleave. It is not just the barrier. scourges are still taken over other specs because of this on some encounters. It does not even have a weapon swap. CMech is melee, specter single target. Scourge has no limitation.

 

1 hour ago, zaswer.5246 said:

Is it me or some people are starting to be too blunt with their desire for overpowered buffs? 40k for all necro elites? man if that happened it would be caos, imagine immortal shrouded necros doing 40k, loosing 0 health and devastating raids, also alac on scourge... do you even imagine how broken an alac ambulance scourge would be? just give li, kp, legend armor and gold for free, its less of a hassle.

The good old "but is has 2 healthbars" argument. 40k scourge would break the game. 40k reaper might be too much but the shroud is far less sustain than some stuff herald, warrior and virtu can do.

50 minutes ago, Sensations.9507 said:

Also jesus people talking about harbinger as if dropping to one shot territory nonstop in PVE fights with massive aoe damage constantly like that isnt a problem.  Harb is a meme.  None of the other 10 specs doing 39k plus have to hamstring themselves just to do damage.....

It has medium health at full stacks. weaver has less hp than a full stack harb. Play sword weaver if you think it is so op. even current 35k scourge will outdps it on some encounters because of the range advantage.

[Sensations.9507]

18 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Starting an argument with LOL is not very convincing. It still has 1,2k barrier output per second and if stacked is enough to replace a healer. The only similar build is cvirtu which has no barrier and requires positioning for cleave.

Scourge requires no positioning at all. Also specter is purely single target with no cleave. It is not just the barrier. scourges are still taken over other specs because of this on some encounters. It does not even have a weapon swap. CMech is melee, specter single target. Scourge has no limitation.

 

The good old "but is has 2 healthbars" argument. 40k scourge would break the game. 40k reaper might be too much but the shroud is far less sustain than some stuff herald, warrior and virtu can do.

It has medium health at full stacks. weaver has less hp than a full stack harb. Play sword weaver if you think it is so op. even current 35k scourge will outdps it on some encounters because of the range advantage.

Lying is not a good way to start a post.  Scourge does not do 1.2k barrier a second in FULL VIper gear anymore.. It hasnt in 2 years.  In full ascended viper gear right now on live tooltip on barriers are 1.1k and 500!  What alternate reality are we living in?  These tiny barriers also have a 10s and 8s cooldown respectively!  Using the 10s shroud barrier also is a dps loss and consumes lifeforce, WHICH you dont have alot of if your in actual blood support spec.  If you instead blood support with soul reaping instead of curses your dps goes down to like 5k...  Scourge might have that much SELF barrier if you count in pressing shroud 5 off cd. There are full ranged specs or "simple" rotation specs like scourge doing 38k+ dps while also giving barrier and boons.  You do not address this at all.  Dont just drop lies and then peace out without touching on a single issue.  You dont address any of the 21 classes doing 38k+ dps while giving arguably more valuable support than scourge does if its full dps viper gear.  

BTW throwing in cVirt and not mentioning 80% uptime on distortion, perma fury and a braindead rotation points out your not putting any thought into this at all.  Cmech gives barrier/might/vuln/fury has a braindead signet rotation doing 39k.  There are 6-7 specs like this..  Your argument is either ignorant or straight trolling if there is a single class doing what you are afraid scourge will do.  Much less 6 specs doing it already..

Edited February 22, 2023 by Sensations.9507