Now That Mantras Are Useless In WvW... What is Next to Go?

[Jitters.9401]

4 hours ago, atlashugged.7642 said:

I prefer the current implementation of Mantras. You charge before the fight, or between fights. And you get a nice benefit. I particularly prefer this for Mantra of Distraction.

So healing before a fight when your health is already full is a nice benefit? 

 

The benefits are incredibly weak and situational. 

[Jitters.9401]

5 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

  I honestly don’t know why you are this aggressive over not knowing your own tool kit.

Too funny.

A fight isn't just "knowing your own toolkit". A fight is knowing your's and the enemies. 

Im guessing you are in favor of the mantras being destroyed because you do not play a mesmer but have lost many a fight to one. 

 

(1) Not every mesmer plays virtuoso. I do, but I see an even split of virt and mirage these days.

 

(2) Your writing is from the standpoint of the perfect 1v1 fight where everything you do works out. Any skilled player will pop your aegis before bursting you. I did it all the time by using the mantras.

 

(3) Unless you are fighting 1v1 against mediocre players, the speed of the battle is too fast to "spam" aegis the whole fight. If you are fighting multiple opponents then good luck on that. It's like you have not come to the realization that fighting multiple opponents occurs often,  or you only look for 1v1 fights.  How boring. 

 

(4) There are a number of "unblockable " skills out there. Spam that aegis to no avail.

 

(5) I was going to graciously educate you more on how fights actually work in wvw roaming but it dawned on me. You don't really care to know what is going on. You don't like mesmers and anything that affects mesmers negatively makes you happy.

 

That is a pretty poor attitude. 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 2/22/2023 at 12:46 AM, Jitters.9401 said:

I was regularly running 2 mantras before the change. Now I am forced to run zero.

 

For example.... I am roaming. Got in a 1v1 with a necro. I couldn't finish even 1 charge casting.  Each time I tried I was interrupted and it is not like a person can keep trying to recast over and over till it works. You still need to dodge, use defensive skills, etc. 

 

And what about fighting multiple enemies? Yeah..... good luck on ever charging a Mantra.

Mantras have been totally "kittened". Thank you anet for giving mesmers less skill choices in WvW (sarcasm).

 

So what will be next to go? Tell me ahead of time so I know what not to use in the future.  

My brother in Lyssa. 

Not every skill is going to be useful in every game mode. Don't use mantras while roaming if you can't use them effectively. There are better alternatives for small scale. Instead of Resolve use Arcane Thievery.

But not being able to use them vs multiple enemies?

Please stop with this delusion. 

Mantras are used extensively in WvW zerging. If you are getting interrupted then someone on your team is doing something wrong. 

Either it's you because you are the source of stab and you should be running chaos with bountiful disillusionment until you get better at finding windows to charge the mantra. 

Or it's your allies because they should be giving you stability.

I cannot for the life of me understand how you cannot use mantras in the one game mode where stability is the most common boon. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Daniel Handler.4816]

15 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Your posts speaks like it is written by someone who either:

(1) Only goes to wvw to kill the vet critter

 

(2] Has absolutely zero play time as a mesmer. 

 

I have over 10,000 hours in the game. And 80% of it is on mesmer. I command in WvW on a tier 1 server which means I am often at the front of the zerg, often the first person to be targeted, and more than 15 people are trying to kill me. 

You can use mantras. 

15 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

(A) Distortion has 42.5 second cooldown for my build. You suggest I burn a life saving 42.5 second cooldown ability to cover a 2.25 recharge? 🤣 😂 🤣

 

Stability, condition removal and healing are life saving. 

And distortion should have a 28.33333 second cooldown because you should be using improved alacrity.

If you aren't using a chronomancer then this whole discussion is moot. 

[Jitters.9401]

7 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

But not being able to use them vs multiple enemies?

Please stop with this delusion. 

Mantras are used extensively in WvW zerging. If you are getting interrupted then someone on your team is doing something wrong. 

(1) I roam solo. It is my preference. 

 

(2) I jump into fights against multiple opponents. Just me vs them. I am not a fan of zerging.

 

(3) My choice primarily, is to not join groups in order to limit any buffs  I get from others.  I prefer to win by my skill alone. It is how I like to play.

 

(4) I've talked with mesmers who "zerg". Not a single one uses mantras, so saying that people do does not make it true.

 

(5) killing mantras for roakimg play is still killing mantra. Just because it does not affect zergs as it does roamers does not make it benign. 

 

I loved using mantras. My one weapon set was scepter/sword. Most would say it underperforms but with two extra blocks to stock blades and activate boons, the vulnerability I'd put out, plus the 1300 heal evertime i used a mantra... i had crazy good survivability while roaming solo like that.

 

It is funny how people who tell me I am wrong have absolutely no clue how roaming solo actually works. 

 

I'm at work and I'm bored.

[Yasai.3549]

Just revert the revert, rebalance the numbers if needed. 

Personally I feel like Anet is very wishy washy with what they consider "keeping the identity" and what is "okay we can just screw it over, I don't care." 

Case in point: Scrapper Gyros. Identity my Quagganbutt.

[Jitters.9401]

15 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

I have over 10,000 hours in the game. And 80% of it is on mesmer. I command in WvW on a tier 1 server which means I am often at the front of the zerg, often the first person to be targeted, and more than 15 people are trying to kill me. 

You can use mantras. 

 

Stability, condition removal and healing are life saving. 

And distortion should have a 28.33333 second cooldown because you should be using improved alacrity.

If you aren't using a chronomancer then this whole discussion is moot. 

So what you are saying is the only way a mantra is effective is if I play in a zerg?

 

Thank you for agreeing with me that mantras for roamers is totally ruined. 

 

I don't care about zerging and needing other people's buffs. I would much rather win on my own. 

 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

11 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

So what you are saying is the only way a mantra is effective is if I play in a zerg?

 

Thank you for agreeing with me that mantras for roamers is totally ruined. 

 

I don't care about zerging and needing other people's buffs. I would much rather win on my own. 

 

No. I said if you aren't playing a chronomancer this discussion is moot. 

Mirage can easily cloak to cover the mantra. 

And virtuoso. Including your build. Should have high uptime of quickness and aegis, and play at range. 

Also why you would be using mantras plural as either is beyond me when there are so many better alternatives for small scale. 

For instance your build is already using inspiration because you mentioned heal on activation. Why aren't you using signets instead? 

Signet of the ether, signet of midnight, blink + a single mantra is going to be way more effective than whatever two mantras you were running. And it would cut the charging time in half. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Jitters.9401]

30 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

No. I said if you aren't playing a chronomancer this discussion is moot. 

Mirage can easily cloak to cover the mantra. 

And virtuoso. Including your build. Should have high uptime of quickness and aegis, and play at range. 

Also why you would be using mantras plural as either is beyond me when there are so many better alternatives for small scale. 

For instance your build is already using inspiration because you mentioned heal on activation. Why aren't you using signets instead? 

Signet of the ether, signet of midnight, blink + a single mantra is going to be way more effective than whatever two mantras you were running. And it would cut the charging time in half. 

No take backs. 

 

(1) You said mantras are good only in zergs. That defends my position of them being destroyed for solo roamers.

 

(2) Using multiple mantras is beyond you. Thank you for admitting I am the more knowledgeable player of the mesmer and the lessor used skills in solo roaming. 

 

(3) So you only understand the chrono as it pertains to zerging, and if it isn't chrono you are unable to talk due to limited knowledge.... all you had to say one time was that I was and am correct, but apparently you wanted to make a point by saying it 3 times. 

 

Ty again.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

1 minute ago, Jitters.9401 said:

No take backs. 

 

(1) You said mantras are good only in zergs. That defends my position of them being destroyed for solo roamers.

(2) Using multiple mantras is beyond you. Thank you for admitting I am the more knowledgeable player of the mesmer and the lessor used skills in solo roaming. 

I know what I said. 

"Not every skill is going to be useful in every game mode. Don't use mantras while roaming if you can't use them effectively. There are better alternatives for small scale. Instead of Resolve use Arcane Thievery." 

I didn't say they are only good in zergs. I said don't use them if you can't use them effectively. 

1 minute ago, Jitters.9401 said:

(3) So you only understand the chrono as it pertains to zerging, and if it isn't chrono you are unable to talk due to limited knowledge.... all you had to say one time was that I was and am correct, but apparently you wanted to make a point by saying it 3 times. 

I roam in WvW as well on full zerker virtuoso or on celestial mirage if we are doing small scale but heavily outnumbered. Build swap exists and taking a minstrel chrono into a supply camp is a waste of time. 

I have sympathy for people who play mesmer in PvP. In WvW you have access to PvE gear and ascended food. 

Post your build. I will be able to tell you what you are doing wrong. 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

I just want toss out for other people's benefit that sites like https://metabattle.com/wiki/Mesmer and https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/mesmer/ exist

I do not cosign every build that is listed here. But it may be helpful for new people to understand what a build even looks like and where/when one might would want to use a mantra. 

Often the recharge doesnt even matter. 

You kill something very fast. 

Or you are fighting something that will let you recharge. 

https://youtu.be/R8vNdDfWs7I?t=53

WvW has both situations. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Jitters.9401]

47 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Post your build. I will be able to tell you what you are doing wrong. 

Rolf

 

I am doing absolutely nothing wrong.

 

I play what I found to be the most fun. Like when I played thief.  I played d/d  d/d and rarely used stealth.  I found using stealth too op and boring. My best was me vs 5 with very little stealth used and my own creation. 

 

When I play guardian... I like to lay all my traps on a sentry then watch from a little distance. My traps do so much damage they down almost everyone build out there.  The enemy goes down, I cheer, then most times I leave them to get up. There is no need to stomp as I've already had my fun. And it is my own creation. 

 

When I play scrapper I deliberately do not use any escape abilities.  It is either win or don't win. My best was me vs 6 on my own build creation. 

 

My mesmer build is my own creation.  I've looked at builds people use and found them to be both "lacking and no fun", so I made my own. 

 

And since I beat pretty much any mesmer I come across 1v1, I am very confident that my build is better than anything else out there. 

 

And no I won't share it because then there would be 1000 other mesmer builds like mine out there. 

 

Too any people play what others suggest when they should figure things out for themselves.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

3 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Some random guy actually providing relevant content, alternatives for various playstyles and helpful tips like "positioning properly in a game designed around proper positioning", backing his position with expertise and straight facts

We don't do that here.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Waffles.5632]

7 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Mirage can easily cloak to cover the mantra.

Whoa now, let's not be too hasty, Mirage's one dodge can only do so much 😂

[Levetty.1279]

Nobody who thinks a skill with a cast time of over 2 seconds is viable actually play this game in any mode.

 

Funny how we don't see these people asking them to arbitrarily slap 2 second cast times on other classes skills so they can have this """""""""interesting""""""""" gameplay.

[Gesbo.6420]

Absolutely another charge would help

Edited February 23, 2023 by Gesbo.6420

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

Absolutely another charge would help

That would fix it, you could precast the skill and just not use the last charge. You would basically have the old Mantras back. 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

9 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Rolf

 

I am doing absolutely nothing wrong.

 

I play what I found to be the most fun. Like when I played thief.  I played d/d  d/d and rarely used stealth.  I found using stealth too op and boring. My best was me vs 5 with very little stealth used and my own creation. 

 

When I play guardian... I like to lay all my traps on a sentry then watch from a little distance. My traps do so much damage they down almost everyone build out there.  The enemy goes down, I cheer, then most times I leave them to get up. There is no need to stomp as I've already had my fun. And it is my own creation. 

There is nothing wrong in trying to have fun in a video game.

9 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

 

When I play scrapper I deliberately do not use any escape abilities.  It is either win or don't win. My best was me vs 6 on my own build creation. 

But there are definitely better or worse ways to play.

9 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

 

My mesmer build is my own creation.  I've looked at builds people use and found them to be both "lacking and no fun", so I made my own. 

 

And since I beat pretty much any mesmer I come across 1v1, I am very confident that my build is better than anything else out there. 

 

And no I won't share it because then there would be 1000 other mesmer builds like mine out there. 

This isn't the Mesmer Collective. I am glad you think you are safeguarding some secret build, but there really arent that many permutations. You said you had 1.3k healing procs, and are running scepter+sword. It isn't hard to reverse engineer what type of build you are playing.

I am not surprised you win 1v1. Most players are new, new players struggle vs bunker condi builds. They don't understand the basics of starting with energy+cleansing + stunbreak + mobility and working up from there.

9 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

 

Too any people play what others suggest when they should figure things out for themselves.

Scaffolding is an important process in learning.

It is more helpful to send someone a build like https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Support_Chronomancer

and then they tweak it from there. Throwing them into the deep-end just leads to threads like these where people don't understand the full breadth of their kit.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Daniel Handler.4816]

21 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

That would fix it, you could precast the skill and just not use the last charge. You would basically have the old Mantras back. 

Then they would increase the recharge cooldown to compensate which would nerf the people who can regularly recharge them.

Just don't use the last charge and you basically have the old mantra back.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

17 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I may be missing something here, but it looks like most of your solutions to cover prep for a mantra after putting it on CD is to burn another skill and put it on CD? 😕

I don't want to make too many generalizations.

But most builds that need to use mantras, only use one and it is integral to the build.

1. Mantra of Distraction with interrupt builds.
2. Mantra of Concentration with utility builds (that are in a group lacking stab, and not running veils)
3. Mantra of Pain with one shot builds 

Only the first two need to be regular recharged in combat (one shot builds should be out of combat because the target is dead, or you are temporarily retreating because you blew all your cooldowns). And it is important enough that you will want to burn something to get them back up and running. Fortunately interrupt builds also have tools to interrupt people trying to interrupt them, like casting diversion while casting distraction. And utility builds often have stablity, aegis or projectile denial. So most of the time this is fine.

You run into issues when you are using two or more mantras. In which case you probably need to be running bountiful disillusionment for extra stab.

[Moradorin.6217]

12 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

So what you are saying is the only way a mantra is effective is if I play in a zerg?

 

Thank you for agreeing with me that mantras for roamers is totally ruined. 

 

I don't care about zerging and needing other people's buffs. I would much rather win on my own. 

 

He is saying all is well cause chrono can still stand and take a ton of focus and be a commander so, apparently mesmers should all be happy and just conform and forget about roaming and forget that Mesmer and Mirage was supposed to be a dueling class and Mirage a combat spec.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

21 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

He is saying all is well cause chrono can still stand and take a ton of focus and be a commander so, apparently mesmers should all be happy and just conform and forget about roaming and forget that Mesmer and Mirage was supposed to be a dueling class and Mirage a combat spec.

I mean if you are running a 4 mantra "healing" build you should probably conform and stop with that nonsense. Or play Tempest instead.

But no. Roaming specs absolutely can use mantras as well. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Mesmer read the wvw roaming builds on this site. Then please explore it more on your own, as those builds are not one size fits all solutions.

[Salt Mode.3780]

It's quite hilarious how people are saying to use cooldowns to charge ineffective mantras when there are literally skills out there that do even more without needing a charge time or cast time. Alright, let me pop my invis to charge my mantra and be a sitting duck god forbid I get ganked and need an escape, or wait let me just use my distortion to charge up my mantras because I won't be needing that later on...in terms of access to stability Mesmer is on the WAY lower end. I don't know if people actually PLAY Mesmer or theorize how things should play out. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

33 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

I don't want to make too many generalizations.

But most builds that need to use mantras, only use one and it is integral to the build.

1. Mantra of Distraction with interrupt builds.
2. Mantra of Concentration with utility builds (that are in a group lacking stab, and not running veils)
3. Mantra of Pain with one shot builds 

Only the first two need to be regular recharged in combat (one shot builds should be out of combat because the target is dead, or you are temporarily retreating because you blew all your cooldowns). And it is important enough that you will want to burn something to get them back up and running. Fortunately interrupt builds also have tools to interrupt people trying to interrupt them, like casting diversion while casting distraction. And utility builds often have stablity, aegis or projectile denial. So most of the time this is fine.

You run into issues when you are using two or more mantras. In which case you probably need to be running bountiful disillusionment for extra stab.

I used to run 2 mantras actually. Mantra of Resolve for reliable cleanse, and Recovery for rune/trait procs on heal skill. On my FB I used not 2 but 3 mantras! Not anymore.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

33 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

I don't want to make too many generalizations.

But most builds that need to use mantras, only use one and it is integral to the build.

1. Mantra of Distraction with interrupt builds.
2. Mantra of Concentration with utility builds (that are in a group lacking stab, and not running veils)
3. Mantra of Pain with one shot builds 

Only the first two need to be regular recharged in combat (one shot builds should be out of combat because the target is dead, or you are temporarily retreating because you blew all your cooldowns). And it is important enough that you will want to burn something to get them back up and running. Fortunately interrupt builds also have tools to interrupt people trying to interrupt them, like casting diversion while casting distraction. And utility builds often have stablity, aegis or projectile denial. So most of the time this is fine.

You run into issues when you are using two or more mantras. In which case you probably need to be running bountiful disillusionment for extra stab.

I used to run 2 mantras actually. Mantra of Resolve for reliable cleanse, and Recovery for rune/trait procs on heal skill. On my FB I used not 2 but 3 mantras! Not anymore.