An idea about clones and shatters

[katte nici.9483]

Reading some of the recent threads I had an idea. One of the problems of Mesmer is that clones as a resource are not very reliable. They get destroyed quickly, especially with any aoe around and their usefulness is a bit random. So what if we changed it like this:

 

- Mesmer shatter charges become their own resource

- You get shatter charges by making clones, just like now

- When a clone dies you don't lose a shatter charge

- Only using a shatter uses up the shatter charges

 

Perhaps make it so you slowly lose shatter charges out of combat.

 

Maybe you wonder what happens when you shatter with 3 shatter charges but you have no clones? The same that happens now if you do a 0 clone shatter, except it happens with the power of a 3 clone shatter. What do you think? Is the idea stupid? Would it even do anything for Mesmer?

[Mell.4873]

All the Elites solve this in a different way. Chronomancer let's you re-summon phantasms after they disappear and reverse time to spam more. Mirage let's your clones dodge when you do. Virtuoso doesn't have any clones at all. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Mell.4873

[setless.6039]

1 hour ago, katte nici.9483 said:

Reading some of the recent threads I had an idea. One of the problems of Mesmer is that clones as a resource are not very reliable. They get destroyed quickly, especially with any aoe around and their usefulness is a bit random. So what if we changed it like this:

 

- Mesmer shatter charges become their own resource

- You get shatter charges by making clones, just like now

- When a clone dies you don't lose a shatter charge

- Only using a shatter uses up the shatter charges

 

Perhaps make it so you slowly lose shatter charges out of combat.

 

Maybe you wonder what happens when you shatter with 3 shatter charges but you have no clones? The same that happens now if you do a 0 clone shatter, except it happens with the power of a 3 clone shatter. What do you think? Is the idea stupid? Would it even do anything for Mesmer?

You basically described virtuoso's blade mechanic.

The clone based shatter system is fine, they just need to stay as long as you are in combat or untill they are killed. They could also try to introduce idle state for them, that is when clone's original target die they just stay idly waiting for shatter - which will then take mesmer's current target. Also, idle clones could have different color on the mesmer clone counter - for example dark violet. This approach would allow to use Mirror Images without a target, as the clone will get spawned already in idle state.

That being said, I highly doubt they will do any changes to mesmer mechanic whatsoever :).

[Infusion.7149]

Just play virtuoso against trash mobs and mirage against any harder bosses that require extra dodges. I do not even know if Arenanet is adding new specs, expecting them to do so might be setting yourself up for disappointment.

Virtuoso addresses the clone problem quite well for openworld even if you trade off the illusion/clone aspects for illusionary blades.

A less complex way to fix clones across the board is the following:

• if your target dies in openworld all clone skills that only make clones but do not do much if any damage recharge instantly.
  • Illusionary Leap on sword
  • Phase Retreat on Staff, possibly Phantasmal Warlock on staff
  • Mirror images utility skill
  • Note scepter has clone generation on auto ; greatsword has its clone generation on 5s cooldown with Mirror Blade
• when you are out of combat every clone skill that does not do damage recharges instantly similar to mistlock singularity in fractals

Edited February 25, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[katte nici.9483]

1 hour ago, setless.6039 said:

You basically described virtuoso's blade mechanic.

The clone based shatter system is fine, they just need to stay as long as you are in combat or untill they are killed. They could also try to introduce idle state for them, that is when clone's original target die they just stay idly waiting for shatter - which will then take mesmer's current target. Also, idle clones could have different color on the mesmer clone counter - for example dark violet. This approach would allow to use Mirror Images without a target, as the clone will get spawned already in idle state.

That being said, I highly doubt they will do any changes to mesmer mechanic whatsoever :).

Of corse it is similar to virtuoso but there is an important difference. The damage and the effects are not delivered through blades but through clones, just as now. It doesn't require new mechanics or some new elite spec or anything like that. It works perfectly fine with existing traits. I'm not trying to win an award for uniqueness, just a simple solution to a fundamental problem.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

bit of a late response, but i think you have to consider that making shatters always consistent gives it reason to scale 100% linearly with clone count (like virt) which means that core/chrono/mirage will always be expected to create 3/max clones and not be able to use lower clone shatters as effectively as it does now. a potential 2.8 coeff instacast in competitive that the mesmer can choose to release at any moment (now with no clones needed) also sounds ridiculous and will likely end up getting nerfed to 2.0 (same as melee 1 clone f1, with completely linear scaling of 0.5/1.0/1.5/2.0) or less

i think the better play is just to leave the clone/shatter system mostly as is, but attempt to redirect any power that depends on clone count back into the mesmer. for example, 0 and 1 clone f1 can mostly stay the same (the mesmer is technically supposed to be shattering clones and not itself), but the value of the 2 additional clones (assuming melee shatter, currently add 0.4 (wvw/pvp) total each) could definitely be lowered while strengthening weapon skills in exchange. condi is no different, and its possible that clones should only just deal 1s of dmg condis (maybe even remove clones from sharper images) while giving the mesmer some real condi dmg skills. the f2 effect that occurs at the mesmers location could also be changed to give the skill better worth at lower clone counts, as another example

clone count should still give a little bit of a bonus, but i personally think mesmer should remain effective even with a theoretical max clone count of 0 (and maybe 1 that lasts long enough for f1)

[Gibson.4036]

What game mode are we talking?

In WvW, I can see the problem, with so much AoE happening everywhere. Similar in large boss fights.

In PvP, isn't being able to output significant AoE part of the counterplay against clone-oriented Mesmers? Would there need to be significant counterbalancing if eliminating clones doesn't diminish a shatter-mesmer's output?

Isn't the biggest problem of easy clone death actually for Mirage, that doesn't shatter often, but relies on their clones to ambush? In which case, the "shatter charge" idea doesn't solve the issue for the spec it most affects.

[katte nici.9483]

2 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

What game mode are we talking?

In WvW, I can see the problem, with so much AoE happening everywhere. Similar in large boss fights.

In PvP, isn't being able to output significant AoE part of the counterplay against clone-oriented Mesmers? Would there need to be significant counterbalancing if eliminating clones doesn't diminish a shatter-mesmer's output?

Isn't the biggest problem of easy clone death actually for Mirage, that doesn't shatter often, but relies on their clones to ambush? In which case, the "shatter charge" idea doesn't solve the issue for the spec it most affects.

All game modes, no more splits! Counterplay still exists, kill the clones and the Mesmer has to be next to you to affect you.

[Gibson.4036]

1 minute ago, katte nici.9483 said:

All game modes, no more splits! Counterplay still exists, kill the clones and the Mesmer has to be next to you to affect you.

I understand the dislike of splits. And your response applies to Mesmers working at range. But you've just buffed melee mesmer then.

And haven't answered about non-shatter Mirage.

In all, it seems like you're trying to make a mesmer not a mesmer. Which is what Virtuoso was for.

[katte nici.9483]

But I dont remove clones, they are still there and work pretty much as before. The only difference is destroying them doesn't remove the shatter charges.

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, katte nici.9483 said:

But I dont remove clones, they are still there and work pretty much as before. The only difference is destroying them doesn't remove the shatter charges.

But if you're playing a shatter build and the shatters are no longer connected to the clone, what's the point of the clone?