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Bad players rule


bethekey.8314

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https://imgur.com/a/lneZHDc

28-0, 4 point difference in teams.This shouldn't happen, and I think it exemplifies why Guild Wars 2 PvP is so frustrating these days.

Bad players aren't team players and don't care enough to get better. They don't focus targets, they rally enemies, and they don't cap points. Systems for learning like hotjoin and spectator mode aren't used anymore. Bad players typically make up the majority of teams.

Good players can't climb ranks if they play solo support or bunker, because those roles can't carry. And if you go damage, time spent capping points is time not farming the bad players on the other team.

In essence, you have to play around your bad players' decisions, conscious or not, instead of them following your lead. To alleviate this, good players will often duo to have more influence. Games and builds degenerate into "who farms noobs fastest". Some class designs are inherently better at this.

What can be done? Remove unranked, promote hotjoin, and use spectate mode for learning and community. Bad players, play tankier builds and focus on map control first.

EDIT:

To clarify, I'm suggesting hotjoin replace unranked. If I recall correctly, this is how it used to be in the first years of the game. There should be one practice mode and one competitive mode. Currently, the free-for-all arena, hotjoin, and unranked are redundant, splitting the community. Hotjoin is the superior mode, with full customization and spectating allowed.

 

Edited by bethekey.8314
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4 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Bad players aren't team players and don't care enough to get better. They don't focus targets, they rally enemies, and they don't cap points. Systems for learning like hotjoin and spectator mode aren't used anymore. Bad players typically make up the majority of teams.

 

Correct.

 

Quote

In essence, you have to play around your bad players' decisions, conscious or not, instead of them following your lead. To alleviate this, good players will often duo to have more influence. Games and builds degenerate into "who farms noobs fastest". Some class designs are inherently better at this.

 

Correct.

 

Quote

What can be done? Remove unranked-

 

Why would forcing more players to engage with ranked make this any better? You'd just be forcing everyone to experience what you mentioned above, and the only people who need to benefit from the experience (bad players)-

 

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don't care

 

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, promote hotjoin, and use spectate mode for learning and community.

Correct. 

I don't take any ranking system seriously where your rating depends on how hard you carry your team if you decide to play solo, but you can play duo if  you so desire. What kind of test or grading system would ever allow such a pairing?

Even if you ranked based on top stats/participation, you'd still end up with a more engaging system because people would do -something- all game instead of rushing mid, losing, then afking and tanking everyone else. 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Why would forcing more players to engage with ranked make this any better? You'd just be forcing everyone to experience what you mentioned above, and the only people who need to benefit from the experience (bad players)-

Instead of funneling into ranked, I thought unranked players would funnel into hotjoin. If you get destroyed in hotjoin, or dislike your team, you can leave at any moment or spectate to learn.

 

Edited by bethekey.8314
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I would highly recommend A-Net to let us spectade AT's and mAT's cause that is just one of many ways to learn how to Play the Game. Still don't get why only streamers are allowed to so this....

 

But also the over mental stay of some Players are ....... Bad. Most peops do not want to learn how to Play PvP. They Just go in get Builds and are thinking now I am good and when they fail everything they are mostly Like "enemy is cheating" or "yea my Teams fault" meanwhile it was clearly their own fault. 

 

I dont say everyone is Like this but there are for real many of them around. This also Just let new Players evade PvP and for a good reason cause who want to Play with toxic peops. 

 

Also we Finaly need to train Bad players how to. Get good (yes also good Players could still learn Things so we need to train each Others also. Letz make PvP great again Guys)

Edited by Pati.2438
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we are way to less ppl in pvp, we have too less pvp modes, and wintrading and toxic ppl all over it.
If the core problemes are not fixed, nothing will help this mode.

Why ppl need to use multiple classes for the ledgy backpack? Anet forces player to use classes that they are not good at. Just the get the archivement done. 

Sometimes i have PvE Player in ranked matches that have no clue at all but need the daily reward... and so on

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Find a way to get PvE players who like in any other games have no desire for playing PvP since that would take effort or move away from their ability to enjoy the game.

WvW being more popular because you become almost insignificant in the amount of players involved thus doing anything never yields you the attention most are afraid of.

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9 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Instead of funneling into ranked, I thought unranked players would funnel into hotjoin. If you get destroyed in hotjoin, or dislike your team, you can leave at any moment or spectate to learn.

 

Hotjoin rewards are capped at much lower tiers than unranked is (because you can dictate the rules of hotjoin, ofc). 

The fraction of people who fight for the smell of the game* may not care about rewards as much so this may not affect where they go, but I guarantee "rank give more money" will funnel the people who care more about rewards -right- into ranked. 

 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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16 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Find a way to get PvE players who like in any other games have no desire for playing PvP since that would take effort or move away from their ability to enjoy the game.

WvW being more popular because you become almost insignificant in the amount of players involved thus doing anything never yields you the attention most are afraid of.

The only way to get PvE players to do something they would otherwise find unpleasant is to heavily reward them for doing it. 

This will not guarantee they even attempt to do it well, of course.

WvW is popular because there are many ways to be rewarded, and many playstyles that can lead to rewards. PvP -can- do this, but they would need a meticulous class balance and a way to reward people for playing roles well, instead of just winning (and less punishment for losing when the TEAMS ARE kittening RANDOM-)

I still maintain that looking at rating modification (either preventing rating loss or adding rating for top scorers, even if the team loses) in addition to preventing rating loss from afks or dcs (while handing people that afk or DC a loss and dishonor) would probably do the most good for ensuring people at least try to do something. 

Even if you get three supports on a team, rewarding best defense or healing or whatever the support does will ensure they all sweat hard. They might even win from that incentive. 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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8 hours ago, ZoXLike.9073 said:

Why ppl need to use multiple classes for the ledgy backpack? Anet forces player to use classes that they are not good at. Just the get the archivement done. 

In a thread lamenting the lack of learning, why wouldn't you want players to have to try different professions?

There'd probably be a lot less "Nerf X, OP" if more people played a wide variety of specs.

Trying D/P Daredevil taught me that the thieves that were killing me were actually really good. Playing hammer Spellbreaker taught me to see the CC winding up and not get suckered into FC. Playing Tempest showed me that it's not as easy as it looks to stay up when focused. Etc.

I mean, the leggy backpack is low-hanging fruit. It's one of the first things to seriously go for in PvP. That makes it an excellent learning tool for newcomers. And "at least try other professions a little" is good instruction because "know your opponents" is a foundation of competition.

Edited by Gibson.4036
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5 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

The only way to get PvE players to do something they would otherwise find unpleasant is to heavily reward them for doing it. 

This will not guarantee they even attempt to do it well, of course.

WvW is popular because there are many ways to be rewarded, and many playstyles that can lead to rewards. PvP -can- do this, but they would need a meticulous class balance and a way to reward people for playing roles well, instead of just winning (and less punishment for losing when the TEAMS ARE kittening RANDOM-)

I still maintain that looking at rating modification (either preventing rating loss or adding rating for top scorers, even if the team loses) in addition to preventing rating loss from afks or dcs (while handing people that afk or DC a loss and dishonor) would probably do the most good for ensuring people at least try to do something. 

Even if you get three supports on a team, rewarding best defense or healing or whatever the support does will ensure they all sweat hard. They might even win from that incentive. 

Well said! I could not agree more. Let’s hope this gets seen by the right eyes. Any way you look at it, PvP needs a refresh and most importantly in how Ranked works.

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I see nothing wrong with this. Based on the graph, both teams had roughly equal deaths, map control, and even the score went head to head. This is what a balanced matchup looks like.

Not to mention most of my matches where anyone has 15+ kills are just boring onesided stomps. If I could trade all of those matches for this, that would be a huge improvement for me. 

Edited by Bazsi.2734
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1 hour ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

I see nothing wrong with this. Based on the graph, both teams had roughly equal deaths, map control, and even the score went head to head. This is what a balanced matchup looks like.

I don't believe you're reading the stats correctly; someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you look at the kills column, in % Team vs Enemy, our team contributed about 75% of the total kill credits in the match. For deaths, our team had only about 31% of the total.

So, if correct...

  • despite me getting about double the average kill credits on my team (28 = 0.321*totalkillcredit, totalkillcredit = 87, 87 - 28 = 59 remaining kill credits split among 4 teammates = 14.75 avg. kill credits per teammate)
  • despite me never dying
  • despite their team having more than twice the total deaths
  • despite me contributing above team average point defense (25.4%)

...we barely won the game. Yes, I had below team average point offense (13.4%), but it's difficult to do everything. I believe this clearly shows teammates pulling very little weight in what should otherwise be a clear victory.

Edited by bethekey.8314
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8 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I don't believe you're reading the stats correctly; someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you look at the kills column, in % Team vs Enemy, our team contributed about 75% of the total kill credits in the match. For deaths, our team had only about 31% of the total.

So, if correct...

  • despite me getting about double the average kill credits on my team (28 = 0.321*totalkillcredit, totalkillcredit = 87, 87 - 28 = 59 remaining kill credits split among 4 teammates = 14.75 avg. kill credits per teammate)
  • despite me never dying
  • despite their team having more than twice the total deaths
  • despite me contributing above team average point defense (25.4%)

...we barely won the game. Yes, I had below team average point offense (13.4%), but it's difficult to do everything. I believe this clearly shows teammates pulling very little weight in what should otherwise be an clear victory.

And you see the worst part is the game designer will pat themselves on the back and say great matchmaking.  It perfectly accounted for you needing to go to outrageous lengths to drag a team with no hope of winning to a very close , coulda gone either way 50/50 match.   
 

The issue is what you want is a 50/50 likely match with people remotely close to your skill level.

Edited by shion.2084
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52 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

And you see the worst part is the game designer will pat themselves on the back and say great matchmaking.  It perfectly accounted for you needing to go to outrageous lengths to drag a team with no hope of winning to a very close , coulda gone either way 50/50 match.   
 

The issue is what you want is a 50/50 likely match with people remotely close to your skill level.

Right. And it's extremely unsustainable and frustrating. For both veteran and new players.

I agree that different matchmaking/ranking systems are needed for the current state of the game. At this point, I'm not even sure if the problem is low total population. There seems to be a good number of novice players. It feels like the problem arises more from  a low skilled population. 

To help bridge the gap between skilled and unskilled, learning tools like spectator mode / perpetual servers need to be emphasized. This match in particular statistically demonstrates that teammates lack even basic competence in the game mode.

 

Edited by bethekey.8314
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On 2/27/2023 at 10:45 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

The only way to get PvE players to do something they would otherwise find unpleasant is to heavily reward them for doing it.

PvP does have rewards, in fact the easiest rewards compared WvW or PvE. As the only requirements is to play the game then you can do whatever you'd like following after it in WvW and PvE.

Why did the devs choose to take away the legendary amulet from being PvP only? It did actually bring players, least for the time being until they had the amulet. I made quite a few  friends in the end after they asked me to help them in their journey for it, I can even recall that one of the close friends to whom I have to this day and got to meet them, I recall myself hanging out in FFA years back while they asked me randomly if I could be their duo partner even thought it was their first interaction, quite cute.

Anet is responsible for the fact that even when we had unique rewards, the PvE side whined hard enough that we lost that exclusivity which brought players in, doesn't help that the legendary armor in PvP is god awful looking. We have no cool legendary weapons or more trinkets either, though the mist trinkets are useful for stats swapping, why not give players the ability to get legendary equivalents with the PvP system one way or another? Anet is simply scared to lose players since as it is the game is already not p2p.

Do what brings money and listening to the whining does bring money even if the whining is the most minut and lazy.

 

Edited by Shao.7236
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I would honestly really love it if Anet made it so anyone could just make custom games, and fill in empty spaces with NPC bots of one's choosing. Like if I'm struggling against cata, then i can make a custom game, insert cata bot, and while it won't be 1:1, it will at least let me learn to pvp against cata on a basic level.

Then I could take that knowledge into pvp instead of going in naked and getting immediately blown up and not even knowing why because the death info screen doesn't even tell you what actually killed you. There is no path to knowledge currently, it's literally get blown up and die until you get better. Trust me when I say nobody wants to deal with that.

 

 

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On 2/27/2023 at 6:56 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

Instead of funneling into ranked, I thought unranked players would funnel into hotjoin. If you get destroyed in hotjoin, or dislike your team, you can leave at any moment or spectate to learn.


A-net letting hotjoin die unceremoniusly was a bad thing, in my oppinion. But I'm quite biased towards it, because I did learn to play PvP almost 10 years ago, with hotjoin. It was easy to drop in, play some, drop out, when I had enough. Or swapping lobbies, when I got clearly outmatched, to the point, where I had zero chance to impact the match.

 

On 2/27/2023 at 12:46 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

Bad players, play tankier builds and focus on map control first.


This was something I did a long time ago, when I started PvP, and do every now and then, when I check back in, to learn what are the must dodge skills.

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1. Make custom games actually useful and enjoyable for both the owner and the players. 

This will make it a lot easier for Server Moderators to do anything at all in the custom arena maps. Currently, you can't easily swap a player in between teams or in/out of spectator mode. I'd like to see commands like /swap @usernamesomething red or /join @usernamesomething blue than requesting for the individual to open their game window browser (usually unbinded) and have them do it themselves. 
Continuing on improving custom arenas, I do NOT understand why they are the last window in the PvP Panel browser. From a UX perspective that entails it's the least important of their features...

 

2. Remove Free For All Arena and make it an instance-generation portal where you can either go in 1v1 or go fight your pre-made party.

That's significantly big in scope, although it's a lot easier in my mind - use the same map, and make the portal door the portal, but instead of being able to jump in the FFA, you'd join an instance with either your party or other solo players. This would remove so much of the cannibalism our PvP community goes through. Newer players (I'd assume they usually are in groups) would be able to play against their party members without interference, effectively letting them learn in peace, while those who want to spend time hitting and mashing their keyboard with their forehead could go ahead and do that in another instance. The population may be low but I don't believe that would break an already quite bad system. 
 

3. Honestly, rework the ranking system.

Currently, when you're half-decent, you have to play your mind out to quite literally have a close match. This wouldn't bother me - after all, it is ranked - but risk-reward is currently quite literally not worth it since you will have bad players on either team because the matchmaker tries to make small queues.

Reworking a system that never worked would mean shattering it from its core though, and I really don't think ANet cares enough about PvP to gift us a new system that isn't sus in its pairing.

edit: changed wording

Edited by Equinox.1463
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On 2/27/2023 at 12:46 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

Good players can't climb ranks

Oh i know this misery. I play ranked everytime and everytime my ranked in reseted, I have to climb the lader again and that means

shouting in chat "FIGHT INSIDE THE CIRCLE" , "DON'T TRY TO 1v2/1v3, JUST RUN AWAY AND CAP OTHER POINTS".

Oh did i mention that this players don't have a CC break skills on thier utility bar beside having all dmg skill?

 

 

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27 minutes ago, August.5934 said:

Oh i know this misery. I play ranked everytime and everytime my ranked in reseted, I have to climb the lader again and that means

shouting in chat "FIGHT INSIDE THE CIRCLE" , "DON'T TRY TO 1v2/1v3, JUST RUN AWAY AND CAP OTHER POINTS".

Oh did i mention that this players don't have a CC break skills on thier utility bar beside having all dmg skill?

 

 

I can feel that haha Another one I tend to say often is "we don't need 3 caps, they have a thief, focus on 2 caps" and it is bizarre. I thought it was general knowledge! Especially if the thief can two-skill you to downstate.

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I'm always shouting out.... please don't all run off into the far respawn after we just won mid... ah crap.

 

and "just decap far... don't try to hold it".

 

and "all we need are two poi.... ah why do I bother"

 

And Honestly, I'd be very happy if in these ranked games folks would just not try to run off and be a "far superstar".  Cause generally there's like a 50% chance they just die.... and if they don't die, we're short 3 v 4 and someone mid dies....   OR they go and actually win far, don't notice that they're being ignored and the rest of the match for the remaining two points is 4 v 5.    There is the slim chance that we get really lucky and the far guy is very good and our opponents are dumb and send 2 people to chase him around and can't cap it.

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On 2/26/2023 at 6:46 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

Good players can't climb ranks if they play solo support or bunker, because those roles can't carry. And if you go damage, time spent capping points is time not farming the bad players on the other team.

In essence, you have to play around your bad players' decisions, conscious or not, instead of them following your lead. To alleviate this, good players will often duo to have more influence. Games and builds degenerate into "who farms noobs fastest". Some class designs are inherently better at this.

What can be done? Remove unranked, promote hotjoin, and use spectate mode for learning and community. Bad players, play tankier builds and focus on map control first.

This is all a pretty succinct summary of what we experience. I would urge you to clarify hotjoin vs unranked because many of us would balk at everybody being thrown into ranked. I think you mean hotjoin IS the new unranked, it just functions more like custom arenas with drop-in/drop-out and spectating. 

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