Fb nerf suggestions.

[zicaA.6841]

11 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

qfb is at 37.2k though. Because other builds scratch 30k its ok for fb to be that high?

So you acknowledge fb overperforming hard then with being 25% ahead of scrapper and still like 20% ahead of herald? almost nobody plays alac untamed. its a 150 apm class that does not work on a lot of encounters. Its full 10% ahead of quick cata which i havent seen in ages too because it can not be played like a support unless you want to butcher its dps.

no on demand stab, aegis or cc. all part of your overly complex rotation.

It takes 4sec until your first dragon trigger. That is only an issue in fractals. It takes 16secs for cata to gather all its buffs.

Yes, it's perfectly fine that a guardian elite specialization have better support capabilities than other professions. I don't see guardian mains crying about why we don't have access to stealth, superspeed, barrier, portals, clones, pets, other condis rather than burn, or why we are basic a meme as a support in pve without FB. The same reason that make thiefs overperform other professions in terms of mobility explain why guardian should be a top support. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by zicaA.6841

[zealex.9410]

14 hours ago, zicaA.6841 said:

No, thank you. FB is the only decent support guardian for pve, and there are a lot of support build performing 30k+ dps while sharing alac/quick.

 

Power ALAC untamed 35k

Condition ALAC untamed 34k

Power QUICK catalyst 33k

Condi ALAC renegade 33k

Condi QUICK harbinger 32k

Condi QUICK berserker 32k

Power QUICK herald 31k

Condi ALAC renegade 31k

Power QUICK bladesworn 30kP

Condi ALAC miragem 30k

Power QUICK scraper 30k

Power QUICK chrono 30k

 

 Plus, there are 12 pure DPS builds performing 40k+, FB is just one of then...

 

Imo boon dps supports should be around 32k gove or take into acount their utikity while dps substatially higher. qfb doing 37k ish is extremely unhealthy and oppresive.

[Nephalem.8921]

7 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Off the top of my head there's also Avatar of Balthazar, Chak Lobber, Legendary Facet and Awakened abomination, Migraine AP, Trembled Earth, Executioner Bandit, etc. A lot of players struggle with these.

Just yesterday I helped another player take down the Facet, because he said a team of six wiped on it. 

I have completed Balthazar, the one in southwest verdant brink and chak lobber on full glass raid weaver just doing my opening burst with jadebot protocols. Migraine was always soloable on glass builds. did that on condi engi ages ago. Cele fb should faceroll through it.

Balthazar dies within 20sec. Chak lobber too. The ritualist build has 28 hp. Lord Hozen builds are very low dps builds. Obviously he wont do high dps in open world on these. High sustain builds for the casuals are his niche. 

[Nimris.3781]

Oh i see, a qFB doing 37,2k dps, basically rivaling normal dps classes while providing 100% quick uptime is perfectly fine!

Seriously some players are beyond blind...

But onto the topic, outside of obviously overperforming qFB, i always feel like everyone misses some other issues that make cfb that op. That is, short ramp up time with burning dmg and ease of applying it as cfb:

1) Ramp up time

cfb has one of the shortest ramp up time from condi classes, 8-10 sec and you are doing near max dps. it is not a power slb/bs burst levels, but its good enough to keep up nearly everywhere even on fights that favour power classes. This takes away main disadventage that most condi builds have, that is weak on short window burst fights

2) Ease of doing dmg

Lets be honest, cfb is definitely not hard. I would even say one of easiest to play as there is no real resource management, no complex skill order and its not high apm class. Whats more, it has a lot of passive dmg making it very simple and even if you fail, your dmg will end up decent anyway... and yet it got to 42k dps mark, next to classes that are near unplayable without macro (untamed....) and some players say its perfectly fine! lol...

 

We created monstrosity here, hence players saying its disgustingly op. Easy to play, works everywhere, decent utility, very good cc and so on. There definitely has to be some dps tweaks, but i pray that finally something can be done about burning cond as well or we will again end up with fb's everywhere.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Nimris.3781

[zealex.9410]

3 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

Oh i see, a qFB doing 37,2k dps, basically rivaling normal dps classes while providing 100% quick uptime is perfectly fine!

Seriously some players are beyond blind...

But onto the topic, outside of obviously overperforming qFB, i always feel like everyone misses some other issues that make cfb that op. That is, short ramp up time with burning dmg and ease of applying it as cfb:

1) Ramp up time

cfb has one of the shortest ramp up time from condi classes, 8-10 sec and you are doing near max dps. it is not a power slb/bs burst levels, but its good enough to keep up nearly everywhere even on fights that favour power classes. This takes away main disadventage that most condi builds have, that is weak on short window burst fights

2) Ease of doing dmg

Lets be honest, cfb is definitely not hard. I would even say one of easiest to play as there is no real resource management, no complex skill order and its not high apm class. Whats more, it has a lot of passive dmg making it very simple and even if you fail, your dmg will end up decent anyway... and yet it got to 42k dps mark, next to classes that are near unplayable without macro (untamed....) and some players say its perfectly fine! lol...

 

We created monstrosity here, hence players saying its disgustingly op. Easy to play, works everywhere, decent utility, very good cc and so on. There definitely has to be some dps tweaks, but i pray that finally something can be done about burning cond as well or we will again end up with fb's everywhere.

I wouldnt agree with the second point that much nowadays, since the rework getting benchmark numbers on firebrand have been harder than ever (ofc not condi untamed hard or some other piano build) but the changes to tomes and mantras have madde fb tighter and more busy. Not gonna argue that cfb isnt abit too strong rn (i think it would be fine at 40k dps with the current playstyle) but its not as easy as it was pre rework.

 

Qfb is a bigger problem currently and tbh complexoty for me ranks last in determining the dmg a build does. Range and utility matter alot more.

[Nimris.3781]

14 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

[ ..] complexoty for me ranks last in determining the dmg a build does. Range and utility matter alot more.

Isnt it actually the opposite? i still remember when last year power mech got buffed + got autocasts on his mech skills etc. and with that anyone could reach benchmark dps (that was like 36k?). It became apparent that simple rotation (even with low benchmark) dominates any real fight. In fact, most dps was autocast or done by mech so you could reach benchmark dps all while doing boss mechanics and thats exactly what happened, everyone running power mechs as it was destroying any fight with its dps.

Range on the other hand gives you edge on just handful of fights in the entire game, but outside of that you stick under boss with your group to get boons. You could consider it as a part of class toolkit/utility, helpful but not the main factor.

But yes, quick is definitely bigger problem. cFB should get minor adjustement and quickfb should get major adjustement. gap between support class and pure dps should be wider.

[zealex.9410]

4 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

Isnt it actually the opposite? i still remember when last year power mech got buffed + got autocasts on his mech skills etc. and with that anyone could reach benchmark dps (that was like 36k?). It became apparent that simple rotation (even with low benchmark) dominates any real fight. In fact, most dps was autocast or done by mech so you could reach benchmark dps all while doing boss mechanics and thats exactly what happened, everyone running power mechs as it was destroying any fight with its dps.

Range on the other hand gives you edge on just handful of fights in the entire game, but outside of that you stick under boss with your group to get boons. You could consider it as a part of class toolkit/utility, helpful but not the main factor.

But yes, quick is definitely bigger problem. cFB should get minor adjustement and quickfb should get major adjustement. gap between support class and pure dps should be wider.

You wouldnt reach benchmark dps without grenade kit and manual mech skills but still very close. 

 

For me personally i vakue range and utility more since eso in new encoumters range is really usefull and if you brijg strong utikity you should also get a dmg tax for that. Not saying complexity doesnt matter but for me that ranks last, still it should influence the final number.

[ThunderX.6591]

Ok, i remembered it right the real FB quickness dps damage on the golem......... is 32k-33k, not the 37k that can only be obtained with allies......... that is a big difference..... a completely different kind of play and attention on what you do, reflected in the 5k difference in dps.

Is always this way, people don't read the full description and start talking without understanding the mechanics involved for reaching that kind of dps.

You have a power dagger deadeye that reach 44k DPS without allies........ that is 10k more dps than FB........ (7k difference if you consider a pure condi FB damage), not problematic at all, right?

I see same behaviour as we had with the Mechanics power rifle damage, where people wrote 35k autoattack when the autoattack was around 27k and the 35k was done using skills too, not only autoattack. (good luck explaining that to the 3 people asking for nerf Mecha, that was impossible and the end result was mecha power rifle nerfed underground).

[Atticus.7194]

On 2/27/2023 at 2:33 PM, Orpheus.7891 said:

Ugh, bad time to pick up Guardian?

Not really mantras nerf hurts in pve but you're still playable in pvp and wvw you still have some very very good specs. Honestly I think the spec that needs love the most imo right now is DH which isnt to say the mantra changes aren't annoying and bad

[zealex.9410]

20 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Ok, i remembered it right the real FB quickness dps damage on the golem......... is 32k-33k, not the 37k that can only be obtained with allies......... that is a big difference..... a completely different kind of play and attention on what you do, reflected in the 5k difference in dps.

Is always this way, people don't read the full description and start talking without understanding the mechanics involved for reaching that kind of dps.

You have a power dagger deadeye that reach 44k DPS without allies........ that is 10k more dps than FB........ (7k difference if you consider a pure condi FB damage), not problematic at all, right?

I see same behaviour as we had with the Mechanics power rifle damage, where people wrote 35k autoattack when the autoattack was around 27k and the 35k was done using skills too, not only autoattack. (good luck explaining that to the 3 people asking for nerf Mecha, that was impossible and the end result was mecha power rifle nerfed underground).

I did make this post with group content in mind yes, esp considering that you need a group to reach any of these numbers in the first place.

[Jarn.1726]

22 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

I did make this post with group content in mind yes, esp considering that you need a group to reach any of these numbers in the first place.

yes
this is the point
it can do this in group content
which makes it unbalanced there
it doing less on its own does not matter in this context
bring group dps down to the solo number and its fine

[Jarn.1726]

On 3/3/2023 at 1:40 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Most players can't pull that off, even on a celestial build. Those numbers also look inflated. In full cele gear I have closer to 22K health, not 28K, and I don't know anyone getting 37k DPS in OW. Even Lord Hizen only gets around 14-18k on most of his builds. I've seen vids of an SB getting around 24k, but only for short bursts. 

Off the top of my head there's also Avatar of Balthazar, Chak Lobber, Legendary Facet and Awakened abomination, Migraine AP, Trembled Earth, Executioner Bandit, etc. A lot of players struggle with these.

Just yesterday I helped another player take down the Facet, because he said a team of six wiped on it. 

you got Nepha's argument wrong

the current raid qfb build has ~27k hp
comparing the bench number to an ow scenario is useless, this thread is about group content -> raids/strikes/fractals
and yes, most players will not be able to pull that off, which is irrelevant, because some can and for the rest the avg is higher

[Jarn.1726]

11 hours ago, Atticus.7194 said:

Not really mantras nerf hurts in pve but you're still playable in pvp and wvw you still have some very very good specs. Honestly I think the spec that needs love the most imo right now is DH which isnt to say the mantra changes aren't annoying and bad

all mantras have been buffed a lot in pve? what nerf are you talking about?

[zealex.9410]

21 hours ago, Jarn.1726 said:

yes
this is the point
it can do this in group content
which makes it unbalanced there
it doing less on its own does not matter in this context
bring group dps down to the solo number and its fine

Its harder to do that while making sure that cfb doesnt get hit as hard as qfb should.

[Kulvar.1239]

Only making quickness uptime more annoying is not the way to solve it.

Diverting resources from DPS to quickness uptime is. A combination of changes would be better.

• Decrease base Quickness duration on Potent Haste to 1s. It would make the last charge something you can now use, while hindering uptime.
• Change Liberator's Vow to give baseline 3s Quickness, but not on using Restoring Reprieve. It would give more Quickness, but only when a cooldown is involved. Loss of uptime, but you can now use any healing skill.
• Make Stoic Demeanor also give 1s of Quickness when using a Tome skill from Tome of Courage. It would remove page availability for DPS with the Justice Tome while providing a non-gear dependant way to up your Quickness uptime.
• Change the Superior Rune of the Firebrand to not give +40% Quickness duration. It could give +10% Burning duration instead of +20% Quickness duration as its 6th bonus.

Now you have choice. You can use any healing skill to give Quickness. Maybe you rather use more Concentration or different runes than Renegade so you can use the pages on Justice Tome or not use Liberator's Vow. A bit more flexibility in how you provide Quickness.

[CraftyK.9062]

1 hour ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Decrease base Quickness duration on Potent Haste to 1s. It would make the last charge something you can now use, while hindering uptime.

Correction: This would make the last charge something you pretty much will use if you want permanent uptime.

Currently Liberator's vow gives you 2 seconds of Quickness on a 7 cooldown, though you would usually not cast it that soon. Even if we assume that you are running Alacrity and Weighty Terms, this leaves us with:

2 seconds of quickness on using heal mantra every 7.68s (~26-52% uptime depending on your BD)

1 second of quickness on potence every 7.68s (~13-26% uptime depending on your BD, + some initial buffer)

3 seconds of quickness on FMW every 24s (~12.5-25% uptime depending on your BD)

Making you need ~97% Boon Dura to do permanent quickness. I think it's safe to say that this disqualifies you from giving quickness on an offensive build. Ironically enough, this could limit heal builds even, that run toughness on anything but Giver's, as they'd have issues hitting the BD with the default monk rune set up.

Consuming the last charge would bring you to instead do 7 seconds of quickness on a 20 second (realistically 23s when you account for recharging and then recasting all 3 charges) cooldown, bringing you up to ~30-60% uptime depending on bd, also assuming nothing interrupts you.

1 hour ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Change Liberator's Vow to give baseline 3s Quickness, but not on using Restoring Reprieve. It would give more Quickness, but only when a cooldown is involved. Loss of uptime, but you can now use any healing skill.

If you run Radiance-traited heal signet, this leaves the quick uptime on heal skill at ~15.625 - 31.25%. Aside from Litany of Wrath (which is still longer cooldown, but barely), this pretty much locks you into using Signet.

STILL, assuming that we do not consume the last Potence Charge, and that we are at 100% BD:

31.25% + 26% + 25% = 82.25%

You either need to always consume the last Potence Charge or we need to make use of the following suggestion:

1 hour ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Make Stoic Demeanor also give 1s of Quickness when using a Tome skill from Tome of Courage. It would remove page availability for DPS with the Justice Tome while providing a non-gear dependant way to up your Quickness uptime.

This is a good change imo as it directly makes you sacriface damage for quickness. The 2 other changes, at least in these exact numbers would make it really difficult to do quickness BD-wise even on HFB, which is arguably less of an issue than QFB.

Firebrand rune change I don't want to talk over in specifically Firebrand as other builds could also be using it. This could probably impact other class' builds as well.

Overall, don't get me wrong - I do think QFB needs a nerf, but arguably it should be done in a way that does not impact HFB.

The one suggestion I saw over at Snowcrows Discord is as follows: Making it so you have to take either F2/F3 GM traits for Mantras to be able to give Quickness at all (Or conversly, making taking the F1 trait completely renounce giving quickness with mantras), is the one I believe is the most elegant. You either provide quickness, or you are locked out of using Justice skills/Making using them a decently high damage loss.

Edited March 10, 2023 by CraftyK.9062
epic formatting failure

[Kulvar.1239]

54 minutes ago, CraftyK.9062 said:

Correction: This would make the last charge something you pretty much will use if you want permanent uptime.

1 second of quickness on potence every 7.68s (~13-26% uptime depending on your BD, + some initial buffer)

You are right, the imbalance between using the last charge and not using it is too big to be interesting compromise.

Potent Haste could give 1.5s base Quickness and Overwhelming Celerity 3s.
Would put the base uptime at 26% with last charge, and 20% without it.
The gap would be narrower with still an incentive at using the last charge.

But that's maths, it's not what I was focusing on when I wrote it.

Basically, the ideal would be to leave the QHFB unfazed by the change, while nerfing QCFB. We can achieve it by pushing them to losing the +7% condition damage from Renegade runes because they need the +40% Quickness duration from the Firebrand runes. Or by taking the modified Loremaster trait.

Side note, Litany of Wrath and traited Healing Signet have the same cooldown, so you don't need Perfect Inscriptions.

Assuming the changes:

• Liberator's Vow, gives a base 4s of Quickness when you put your healing skill on cooldown.
• Loremaster, give a base 1s of Quickness when you use a Tome skill from the Tome of Courage.
• Mantra of Potence, as described at the beginning of this post.

The recommended Snow Crows gear for QHFB put them at 100% boon duration already, while QCFB sit at 42.2% boon duration, with option to go to 82.2% with Firebrand runes.

Base uptime with only Mantra of Potence (with last charge), "Feel My Wrath!", and for Liberator's Vow at 4s with either "Receive the Light!" (QHFB) or Litany of Wrath (QCFB).

"Receive the Light!": 4s / 26s = 15%
Litany of Wrath: 4s / 20s = 20%
Mantra of Potence : (1.5s + 1.5s + 3s) / 23s = 26%
"Feel My Wrath!" : 3s / 24s = 13%

QHFB has 54% base uptime, so 108% with boon duration.
Basically unchanged except it can use "Receive the Light!" or Mantra of Solace.
Goal achieved!

QCFB has 59% base uptime, so only 84% with current builds.

With Loremaster, 1s Quickness per page (every 6s only!), that's an extra 17% base uptime.
Puts the build at 76% base uptime, or 108% with current gear. Losing Quickfire.

If you take the rune of the Firebrand rather than the Renegade, that 59% base uptime become 107%. At the cost of the ferocity and +7% condition damage of the Renegade runes.

A little dent in QCFB ability to ditch damage without ruining it.