Bladesworn | I don't get it (Need buffs?)

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

21 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

I don't understand some of the comments in this thread.

As far as pve, bladesworn is amazing. Its tanky and it does a lot of dps both solo and in groups. One person in here said it does low dps because it does a bunch of damage in one shot and nothing inbetween. I'm going to attribute that to a build issue rather than a skill issue as the general raid community seems to not have this issue and the rotation is pretty easy.

I don't think you understand the level of mechanical junk that is in the spec. The big numbers on DS in PvE obfuscates the issues.

21 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

As far as pvp, bladesworn fundamentally does not work no matter what stats your through around. I imagine daring dragon was the trait designed with pvp in mind but its just not it. Bladesworn gives up warriors main mechanic of fighting people in exchange for middling damage if you're fighting anyone with decent reaction time while emphasizing warrior's natural weakness even harder than any other warrior spec in existence. Its the poor man's fire weaver; bulky with slow dps but this time without the option for hitting your elite and hoping to kill them in one go. Even at its best point when it couldn't die, it still couldn't do anything to anyone good. It was just annoying and in the way.

And in PvP where it doesn't have the bloated damage on DS all the junk is perfectly visible.

21 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Overall warrior is in this weird space where it has high damage, high sustain, and loads of CC with enough mobility to fight but not enough to keep up with most classes. But if they get more of any of the three, they become overpowered and have to be nerfed back down and their main means for catching people, CC spam, is against the nature of gaming, fun. Sounds like a rework is in order.

Anet needs to decide what warrior gets to be BiS for. They don't have the most mobility, they don't have the most active sustain, they don't have the most CC, and they don't have the highest damage. They're good in a lot of areas, but not the best in any.

Honestly, I think buffing the damage on some F1s and the number 2 skills of the weapons may be the edge that they need to pull ahead. More than a 5% buff, but certainly less than 20%.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Gunsabers 5 skills should do a sword slash at end of the dash that does decent damage instead if the silly movement skill it is now that does a little damage at starting location, the skills a huge waste of opertunity and anet could def do better.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107

[August.5934]

4 hours ago, Infinity.2876 said:

I like the idea of gunsaber being weaker than normal weapons but having really fast attack speed.

M sorry, i must have missread it, did you say it's okay for gunsaber being weaker? and Gunsaber hass fast attack speed? can you tell me more of this please.

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I don't think you understand the level of mechanical junk that is in the spec. The big numbers on DS in PvE obfuscates the issues.

And in PvP where it doesn't have the bloated damage on DS all the junk is perfectly visible.

Anet needs to decide what warrior gets to be BiS for. They don't have the most mobility, they don't have the most active sustain, they don't have the most CC, and they don't have the highest damage. They're good in a lot of areas, but not the best in any.

Honestly, I think buffing the damage on some F1s and the number 2 skills of the weapons may be the edge that they need to pull ahead. More than a 5% buff, but certainly less than 20%.

I already discussed how bladesworn doesn't work in pvp. In pve it doesn't matter much, the only defensive mechanic you need to concern yourself with is the dodge button and the movement keys. Other than that, hitting mostly stationary if not completely stationary targets until they die shouldn't be that complicated.

Yes, that's the issue. They aren't great in any one area, but they are good in all areas and in the hands of the... what 5 good warrior players in NA, they are already near unstoppable with really the only thing above them being holosmith and those players have the same issue in wanting all the power they have and more as well as only have 2 or 3 actual good holosmith players and 4-5 good engineer players in NA. But the issue is, they need to be great in one area and tradeoff something else to become a valued pick beyond a duelist. No one wants to tradeoff, they want everything they have and more. They want all the perks of a warrior with the mobility and ease to hit of a revenant. Some actually just want to play a revenant and won't switch.

The obvious niche that warrior has is area control and its quite absurd but giving them more of that is awful because other people like to play the game too. Mage bane tether is like the best design space that warrior needs in which the area space in which combat occurs is greatly diminished or else.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

I already discussed how bladesworn doesn't work in pvp. In pve it doesn't matter much, the only defensive mechanic you need to concern yourself with is the dodge button and the movement keys. Other than that, hitting mostly stationary if not completely stationary targets until they die shouldn't be that complicated.

Yes, that's the issue. They aren't great in any one area, but they are good in all areas and in the hands of the... what 5 good warrior players in NA, they are already near unstoppable with really the only thing above them being holosmith and those players have the same issue in wanting all the power they have and more as well as only have 2 or 3 actual good holosmith players and 4-5 good engineer players in NA. But the issue is, they need to be great in one area and tradeoff something else to become a valued pick beyond a duelist. No one wants to tradeoff, they want everything they have and more. They want all the perks of a warrior with the mobility and ease to hit of a revenant. Some actually just want to play a revenant and won't switch.

The obvious niche that warrior has is area control and its quite absurd but giving them more of that is awful because other people like to play the game too. Mage bane tether is like the best design space that warrior needs in which the area space in which combat occurs is greatly diminished or else.

I would counter that the tradeoff already exists in that warrior as one of the weakest range games amongst the professions and is defacto forced into double melee builds as a result.

[Dr Meta.3158]

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I would counter that the tradeoff already exists in that warrior as one of the weakest range games amongst the professions and is defacto forced into double melee builds as a result.

So is power herald. That doesn't matter to it at all. The issue is more sophisticated than that. I'll encourage you to reformulated your argument. I would suggest reading the last paragraph of my post that you quoted first. It would help greatly.

[August.5934]

3 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Artillery slash should have cast time reduced to 1/2s.

Artillery Slash has 30sec CD on PVP while blomming has 10sec/count. 

 

3 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I agree; buffing DS damage is just going to get it nerfed.

I can't agree because atm DS does around 6.2k crit damage from Skill 1 but anyone can just evade it or get out of range and not to mention we are a sitting duck so everyone can just stack their conditions on us and can get easily CC'ed while charging & casting DS. (Guardian putting 25stacks of burning on me in less then 2sec 💀)

Not to mention that other warrior sspec like beserker's beserk mode deals +10k damage or even 15k dmg in huge AOE (with greatsword). On other class i can just spam +6k atk without haveing to charging anything. 

atm, my Axe skills does 12k crit dmg in PVP. I put stability -> Knockdown -> Spin-to-win.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

So is power herald. That doesn't matter to it at all. The issue is more sophisticated than that. I'll encourage you to reformulated your argument. I would suggest reading the last paragraph of my post that you quoted first. It would help greatly.

Your last paragraph was not relevant to my response.

Rev has good teleports to aid in its melee and has an elite spec with a functional ranged weapon. Warrior has neither of those two things. Bladesworn could solve that if Flickerstep were longer range and more accessible and if the new projectiles on Gunsaber were any good, but neither is the case. 

[Dr Meta.3158]

12 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Your last paragraph was not relevant to my response.

Rev has good teleports to aid in its melee and has an elite spec with a functional ranged weapon. Warrior has neither of those two things. Bladesworn could solve that if Flickerstep were longer range and more accessible and if the new projectiles on Gunsaber were any good, but neither is the case. 

It is incredibly revelant to your response and this entire thread. Reading and comprehending is critical towards making your own arguments effective.

See I know and you know that warrior has issues. But what I'm trying to do here is move you to making concise arguments for your case so that it can actually be taken seriously and to see if you are genuinely concerned about the state of the class of if you're just wanting power to never lose again despite skill level difference.

 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

54 minutes ago, August.5934 said:

Artillery Slash has 30sec CD on PVP while blomming has 10sec/count. 

That's not true. Since the patch, AS has a 10s CD per charge, max 2 charges.

 

Also I'm not sure what point you are trying to make in response to me saying AS should have a 1/2s cast time?

57 minutes ago, August.5934 said:

can't agree because atm DS does around 6.2k crit damage from Skill 1 but anyone can just evade it or get out of range and not to mention we are a sitting duck so everyone can just stack their conditions on us and can get easily CC'ed while charging & casting DS. (Guardian putting 25stacks of burning on me in less then 2sec 💀)

Not to mention that other warrior sspec like beserker's beserk mode deals +10k damage or even 15k dmg in huge AOE (with greatsword). On other class i can just spam +6k atk without haveing to charging anything. 

atm, my Axe skills does 12k crit dmg in PVP. I put stability -> Knockdown -> Spin-to-win.

I often get 7-8k on DS Boost of I have high charges and high might (tho 5-6k is probably more usual). Heck, sometimes I can get 5k+ on DS Reach.

 

DS does underwhelming damage if you don't have might, it is true. That's why the most successful BS builds (in my experience at least) are running FGJ, usually with tactics. But the dmg you can do with that much might is certainly serviceable, esp when you consider that the attacks are unblindable and unblockable CCs, and a few have considerable range.

 

The main issue is that it is so hard to actually get a highly charged DS in the first place because anyone who looks at you funny knocks you out of DT.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

55 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

It is incredibly revelant to your response and this entire thread. Reading and comprehending is critical towards making your own arguments effective.

See I know and you know that warrior has issues. But what I'm trying to do here is move you to making concise arguments for your case so that it can actually be taken seriously and to see if you are genuinely concerned about the state of the class of if you're just wanting power to never lose again despite skill level difference.

 

The only niche there is Full Counter, which has a bugged CD reduction. Without that bugged reduction that niche is lost. Even then Warrior isn't even in the top 3 in CC access, so I find this supposed niche not a very good argument to make. Necro has more AoE fears via direct fears and boon corruption of stability than warrior does in AoE CC. Area Control also extends into lingering ground AoEs, which warrior does not have very much of. Even here you are pointing to something that warrior is merely good at but not great at.

What warrior has traded off from the very beginning is poor ranged gameplay. It is one of the worst in the game. You would think that it would be the best in melee range, but it isn't, mostly due to its mobility being hampered by not being instant like so many other professions, not be as versatile as other professions, or not being as powerful as other professions relative to their CDs and power differentials to the AA chains.

The case here is that warrior does not have strong ranged abilities, does not have the BiS mobility to make for it, does not have the BiS sustain to make up for it, does not have the BiS area control to make up for it, does not have the BiS melee damage to make up for it, and does not have the BiS support to make up for it.

Pick one that it can be BiS for. I don't think anyone wants it to be area control, because Anet would make that more CC and not lingering AoEs. Can't be Mobility, that is thief's thing. Can't be sustain, we saw how that turned out with Shoutsworn. Warrior doesn't have the support in its chassis to be BiS support.

So, what is left?

Melee damage. There is an overall feeling that Warrior's damage was severely gutted in Feb2020 as not just the hard CC overnerf, but with things like our F1s and key damage skills also getting heavily nerfed. Return some of that damage and you'll see warrior performing fine again. It doesn't need 50% increased damage like that Breaching Strike buff that got gutted, but it does need to be meaningful.

[August.5934]

2 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Also I'm not sure what point you are trying to make in response to me saying AS should have a 1/2s cast time?

AS has 0.7sec cast time and even a 20sec CD is too long because, after i switch my weapon and cast my dmg'ing skills m basically sitting there for a swap to core weapon but because it's on 10sec CD, i have to auto attack which deals extreamly low dmg meaning, i can't put any pressure, I might as well be a NPC mob auto attacking them who deals low dmg.

 

If Bladessworn could have his weapon swap 2 core weapons, even then it would be bad cause that means why play bladesworn if Beserker & spellbreaker can do it better? Bladesworn's whole identity lies at using saber and 2nd main weapon and using dragon slash for dmg output as it's his burst but using a dragon slash now basially means death and even if we somehow land a dragon slash after fully charging it, it's damage isn't as high to put pressure.

 

The mobility skill on Dragon trigger has 60sec recharge per count and it's not an evade skill nor it gives any short of protection. just a 200 - 300 range distance.

2 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I often get 7-8k on DS Boost of I have high charges and high might (tho 5-6k is probably more usual). Heck, sometimes I can get 5k+ on DS Reach.

I noticed that as much but that 8k comes when enemy has a vuln debuff on them. 5k - 6k is ussal at max charge with 25stacks of might and even that 25stacks of might gets stolen away from necro and other boon stealing classes builds then i end up doing 3.5k damage. Even beserker is scary now. Specially hammer beserker with CC focused skills. Constant knockdownss and lunches then hammer one shots with +9k crit dmg.

 

It's just too underwhelming to bring Bladesworn in ranked PvPs. I might as well go on reaper and auto-attack players to death with my reaper skills that deals 5k - 6k crit dmg per 0.5sec cast. (Oh reaper melee range buffed btw, from 130 to 240 now)

[August.5934]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The only niche there is Full Counter, which has a bugged CD reduction

Do you mean Atacker's Insight?

Attacker's Insight: Gain insight when disabling foes or remoing boons. Full Counter refreshes all burst skills on hit. 

[Dr Meta.3158]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The only niche there is Full Counter, which has a bugged CD reduction. Without that bugged reduction that niche is lost. Even then Warrior isn't even in the top 3 in CC access, so I find this supposed niche not a very good argument to make. Necro has more AoE fears via direct fears and boon corruption of stability than warrior does in AoE CC. Area Control also extends into lingering ground AoEs, which warrior does not have very much of. Even here you are pointing to something that warrior is merely good at but not great at.

What warrior has traded off from the very beginning is poor ranged gameplay. It is one of the worst in the game. You would think that it would be the best in melee range, but it isn't, mostly due to its mobility being hampered by not being instant like so many other professions, not be as versatile as other professions, or not being as powerful as other professions relative to their CDs and power differentials to the AA chains.

The case here is that warrior does not have strong ranged abilities, does not have the BiS mobility to make for it, does not have the BiS sustain to make up for it, does not have the BiS area control to make up for it, does not have the BiS melee damage to make up for it, and does not have the BiS support to make up for it.

Pick one that it can be BiS for. I don't think anyone wants it to be area control, because Anet would make that more CC and not lingering AoEs. Can't be Mobility, that is thief's thing. Can't be sustain, we saw how that turned out with Shoutsworn. Warrior doesn't have the support in its chassis to be BiS support.

So, what is left?

Melee damage. There is an overall feeling that Warrior's damage was severely gutted in Feb2020 as not just the hard CC overnerf, but with things like our F1s and key damage skills also getting heavily nerfed. Return some of that damage and you'll see warrior performing fine again. It doesn't need 50% increased damage like that Breaching Strike buff that got gutted, but it does need to be meaningful.

Ok, I understand now. So in that case I would suggest getting into contact with Vaans, peanut, butterpeanut, or Tycura. Any one of them can teach you how to utilize warrior's kit to the fullest and your gsmeplay experience will be vastly different.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Ok, I understand now. So in that case I would suggest getting into contact with Vaans, peanut, butterpeanut, or Tycura. Any one of them can teach you how to utilize warrior's kit to the fullest and your gsmeplay experience will be vastly different.

 

Those players existing, who are good at the game regardless of the profession they play, does not refute anything that I said and throwing their names out is just an exercise in trying to shut down a conversation because you don't like the direction that it is going and does not help your case in any manner.

[Dr Meta.3158]

44 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Those players existing, who are good at the game regardless of the profession they play, does not refute anything that I said and throwing their names out is just an exercise in trying to shut down a conversation because you don't like the direction that it is going and does not help your case in any manner.

Its not about not liking the direction you're going in. I can see that you don't know how to utilize warrior yet. So you can learn from those who do or continue to complain to no avail. Learn or suffer, either way the struggle is yours to have. Good luck!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

14 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Its not about not liking the direction you're going in. I can see that you don't know how to utilize warrior yet. So you can learn from those who do or continue to complain to no avail. Learn or suffer, either way the struggle is yours to have. Good luck!

You really don't know that much about warrior do you. Whatever, go do you. It's a game so enjoy it how you want. Cheers mate.

[August.5934]

1 hour ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Its not about not liking the direction you're going in. I can see that you don't know how to utilize warrior yet. So you can learn from those who do or continue to complain to no avail. Learn or suffer, either way the struggle is yours to have. Good luck!

I love baldesworn playstyle but bladesworn is really bad at PVP from my pov cause i can't go bunkers like other classes. 

I don't even know at this point what weapon to play with as a bunker. Everyone just condi stack on me and my condi cleanse is really bad atm, If i go for condi cleanse build then i lose a lot of damage.

 

I use Greatsword for PVP atm ofc saber is there for 2nd weapon (T_T). The damage output is just bad outside of greatsword and i dare say i almost never land damage of Hundred Blades (skill 2) because it's just swings in 1 direction and we can't move, heck sometimes i even get stucked on it(WASD keys not working), no i didn't get immobelized so the Greatsword is just, not so great beside movements.

 

Combat Stimulant is just straight bad cause after waiting for 5sec, i get the same amount of healing as activation healing. 3k heal at start then 3k heal after 5sec.

 

I tried basically all the weapons by now in PVP and non is actually really good beside Axes.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I like bladesworn in pvp and in wvw, sword/focus works ok for me in both, rifle in 3rd spot fpr wvw. No its not competitive in high level play butbits fun and it's animations look decent, except gunsaber 5 looks unfinished with no strike at end of dash. I find it's over all damage good with zerk/fighter and sustain decent with heal on the 2 shouts I take(might and shake), hp gain when applying might and when using heal skill.

The 2 issues I have is funsaber needs some better conditions tied to its attacks, damaging and non damaging to make its playstyle more than go into funsaber and spam ur skills to do as much dps with whatever amo is up. Dragon Trigger skills all have reasons to chose each skill, one is ranged, one mobility etc, non teigger funsaber skills don't have unique conditions on each to make u strategically use over the others other than 2 of them do more damage than the one, and the other is useless mobility skill.

Add some usefull damaging and non damaging conditions to some of the funsaber non trigger skills to allow for strategic use of spacific skills and add a slice at end of funsaber 5 that does moderate damage, these would add so much to bladsworn imo.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107

[August.5934]

[IMAGE] | (Ranked PVP)

This is exactly what i mean, look the dmg thief did to me and the unavoidable Dragon's Tooth, unavoidable cause we have to waste our stamina ro avoid it but still applies burning AND damage is very high. The ele i was facing was just too much to deal will cause constant blocks, heals, immunity like WTF!

 

Not to mention thiefs comes from no where and one shots and YET! Anet didn't gave bladesworn any damage on dragon slassh after ssitting there like a duck. Hey, we don't even have proper heals to stay alive too.

[prototypedragon.1406]

Perhaps we may all have this wrong and blade sworn is meant to be a condition elite spec 🤭? Idk about relying on metas just because it is quote on quote the best doesn't mean it is the best just the lowest intensity one can attempt to do in the hopes of getting results. Just a way for people to pocket views for monetary gain😉 if a warrior can get kills with using sentinels without food or nomads in competitive play does that make them a terrible warrior because they don't run meta?🤔 I'd say that is quite a accomplishment since dph takes longer then dps.

Edited March 17, 2023 by prototypedragon.1406
.

[crewthief.8649]

On 3/1/2023 at 5:40 PM, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Ok, I understand now. So in that case I would suggest getting into contact with Vaans, peanut, butterpeanut, or Tycura. Any one of them can teach you how to utilize warrior's kit to the fullest and your gsmeplay experience will be vastly different.

 

If you’re trying to persuade folks to your argument, using logical fallacies isn’t the way to do it.  

[Dr Meta.3158]

29 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

If you’re trying to persuade folks to your argument, using logical fallacies isn’t the way to do it.  

Which logical fallacy is it?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Which logical fallacy is it?

Appeal to authority.

[Dr Meta.3158]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Appeal to authority.

They are not authorities, they are some of the few players left that are good at playing warrior. Which is why they don't come here to complain.